Updated/still thinking about next steps

[ARose]

Kyrie, is he bipolar?

Does he know about this board?

I would continue to walk away when you need to, that is a healthy boundary and he's upset anyway, its not like its making it worse and gives you a few minutes of quiet so you can gather your own thoughts.

[kyrie]

Seems like it - he's living (has lived) a double life, effectually. Fantasy vs. reality... that's what porn and affairs, etc are all about. Pastors are VERY prone to that sort of bi-polar thing. He knows he's had depression. Don't know if that qualifies as bi-polar.
He knows I "talk" to others and have sought out resources for help, which he despises and says I should just listen to him.

[tl2]

Sounds like there are elements of narcissistic and related issues there. I don't remember if you've talked to a therapist about dealing with it, but it might be worthwhile.

[Zues126]

Kyrie, I would think that I was your H if it wasn't for the fact that I'm not a pastor.

Be careful about going down the path of diagnosing him. That is the exact opposite of validating. That would be like if you voiced something that you felt was very important to you, and he asked you if it was that time of the month. I promise you that XW diagnosed me with bi-polar, and said all of these same things. Funny, once the M ended I wasn't depressed anymore and my life has never been better.

I don't know your sitch as well as you do but I probably know your H much, much better. What if, what if, what if...he is a totally normal man, that is in a bad marriage, and he's not dealing with it well? What if he's using his depression and anger to try to control you because you two are co-dependent as hell? What if he means well when he does it because he truly believes he's right and that if he could just get you to do what you're supposed to do everything would be better?

You have talked a lot about his dissatisfaction, and with changes you've made, but they are very vague. If I were H's best friend, what would he tell me that he was frustrated about specifically?

Would he say that you don't understand how important a sexual connection is? That he wishes you would take time to understand his desires and satisfy them? That the hardest job in a man's life is fighting off the urge to stray, and that when a husband is fighting that battle he depends on a woman being in his corner, meeting his needs, supporting him in his fight, and appreciating him for fighting that fight for her, and would he say that you haven't done that, but that you've instead acted like there's something wrong with him for being a man?

Are you currently initiating sex? Is he turning it down? If you walked into his bedroom and told him you wanted to put your problems aside and just make his dreams come true for a night, would he turn you away?

Men are so simple Kyrie. They only need a few things: Food, appreciation/admiration, and sexual connection. The hard part is that most women will never understand how powerfully they need those, and how much pain is caused when they don't get them from the one person they are supposed to turn to.

[kyrie]

Hi Zues - again, you're so open and vulnerable. More later....he's around.

tl2, narcissistic to a T.No, not directly. Done some research on it - yes.
Back to Zues. You're close. I realize it's not my place to diagnose. It seems like it *is* my place as the only one to do it, to tell him his behaviors, as much as he can justify them, are destroying himself and us. Maybe he knows that but can't face it. He's even said he is kinda like the serial killer who just wanted to be caught...

[kyrie]

ugh, he keeps walking in...codependent, probably. He's been depressive most of his life & he knows that but has never dealt with it. Self medicates quite a bit though! In a way I think he does want to do the right thing (which is why he didn't file for divorce only threatened it in order to make me change).
I tell you I HAVE tried to just validate, listen, confess my own failings, etc. It is NEVER EVER good enough. Which in some ways is the effects of porn - no real woman is ever ever good enough.
I am often the more *desirous* than he is, again, porn has destroyed the pleasures of real intimacy that way. When he was still talking to OW every night I'd try to seduce him or ask him outright but he turned it down. Then more recently he was very horny, but always said afterword that he was just scratching an itch or not to touch him again. So what do I make of that? I told him how hard that was on me. a lot of interruptions today...
He knows exactly how I feel and that I'm the one who cares & wants the marriage, so he can easily pull my strings, push the guilt buttons and make me *try harder* because that's his only means of power here. I think JellyB knows that pathology well. Deep down I think he does want to be a good, honorable man of integrity. I've tried to tell him that's how I see him and think of him. He knows though, that I could pull the rug out from under him and his facades and tell the world what he's done. That terrifies him. I have no way to disarm that feeling for him. But staying here, through all this and taking his abuse *should* show him if I was going to do that, I would have by now.

[kyrie]

I also think the porn is something he CAN control. I get that. It's also his way to spite me, in a passive aggressive way. I get that too. So I usually back off & try to make things peaceable, friendly, even loving & supportive.
He still says I'm not making *any* effort and acts aggressively towards me. He rejects my every effort to support all those "basics" that you mentioned. It's probably a control thing.
UGH. I'm so stuck.

[Zues126]

I tell you I HAVE tried to just validate, listen, confess my own failings, etc. It is NEVER EVER good enough. Which in some ways is the effects of porn - no real woman is ever ever good enough.

I think you're on to something about the porn being something he can control. I don't think I'm the typical man even, but maybe your H is something like me so I'll elaborate. I can tell you that my entire life I have had overpowering lustful thoughts and desires. It is horrible, like having a curse put on me. Kyrie, you have no idea what it's like to walk around all day and fend off desire. At its worst it feels like I am constantly being rejected by every woman I ever see...not because they rejected me, but because I desire what I cannot have, all day, all the time. It was so frustrating that the only way I knew how to deal with it was with porn. I'd use porn, then for a while it was like I was free of my curse. I felt sated, and wasn't walking around with out of control desire for a while. It was my only way to combat feelings that would perpetually torment me otherwise.

So in some ways a real woman may not ever be good enough, because you can't always satisfy him every time he has desire, and 'protect' him from that desire, and you can't imitate the endless variety available through internet porn. BUT...that was never what I wanted in my M. What I wanted was a woman that understood what I'm telling you, and that supported me through that. I told XW that I understood she couldn't do everything I wanted at every moment I wanted it...but that there were things she could do to make that rejection easier. For example, instead of saying "not now", she could say something like "I can't right now. I know how much you need me and if it wasn't for _____ I'd love to be with you right now, but you'd better know I am there with you, and tonight I'm going to rock your world"...something like that. Something to ease the rejection with some affirmation and empathy, and most importantly indicating I wouldn't be waiting indefinitely. I guess it would kind of like if a hungry kid asked "can I have something to eat", instead of saying "no", you could say "I know you're hungry, we can't eat just yet because I have to finish this report by noon, but if you can hold on and watch one more show I can make you your favorite meal right after it's over, ok?" Which is easier to take?

Truly Kyrie, that was all I would have needed from my W...well, that and making the 'lunch' as varied and tasty as possible within the safety of a monogamous relationship

He knows though, that I could pull the rug out from under him and his facades and tell the world what he's done. That terrifies him. I have no way to disarm that feeling for him. But staying here, through all this and taking his abuse *should* show him if I was going to do that, I would have by now.

This is very insightful. You know, one thing I've learned about fear of abandonment is that it drives counterintuitive behavior. You'd think someone that has a fear of being abandoned would be on their best behavior so no one would leave them. But if they did that they'd be perpetually afraid that if they slipped up and showed their 'real self' which they think is defective, that suddenly you'd be disgusted and leave. So instead they are motivated to be their worst self, then they know that if you stick around they are 'safe' because they know if you stay through that you'll stay through anything. It's like you two are tied by a rope, and he's terrified it will break, so he keeps tugging it and tugging it to reassure himself it won't break, and so he knows it's firmly tied. I know this dynamic played out in my M as well.

What does all of this do for you today? Not much this very moment. But I really do feel I understand a lot of this dynamic. In fact, you might want to read my first few threads because it might show you a lot of what your H is going through in his mind. Of course he's a different person, but I will say again the similarities are eerie and in some ways I feel better knowing I'm not completely alone in being the way I was in my M. I think the more you can understand him the better. I don't have all the answers of how to break this co-dependency, it's not black and white. But maybe it helps to at least understand what's going on.

[kyrie]

Yes, I appreciate what you're saying here. We talked again today...and it veered in this direction, and I nearly asked him directly about. I think I'm ready to tonight. It may come across like an ultimatum. I dunno if that's what would be the last straw or the destruction that comes before a break through...
Thoughts?
I've done a lot of reading on how porn affects men - I get it. I've always been available, attractive (which frightens him a bit), etc. But some of that empathy has been missing since his affair. I hurt too much and it comes out as hostility and disrespect. I'm working on that part...he says I'm not. Ugh.

[Zues126]

I will be direct and tell you I don't trust the research you're doing on how porn affects men. There are many, many conflicting opinions on this topic. Different people have different axes to grind. It's far, far, far, far too easy to have your OWN opinions based on how YOU FEEL, then to simply skim through various articles until you find some that validate your feelings and support the point of view you already had going in.

What are you referring to when you say it might come across as an ultimatum? Are you thinking of telling him that the M can't be healed without him quitting porn and that you're not prepared to live in an M with him if he continues to use it? I'm just trying to keep up with what you're saying. This was pretty vague.