WW is onboard with trying to save the M

[JGuy]

More thoughts along this line... I am really liking this idea of "saying goodbye once and for all to the old M" but without actually going for divorce. This is in fact perfectly aligned with what my W wants right now, which is a trial separation. For starters, we would try this while living in the same house. However, I am thinking through the logistics of what this would actually look like, and I can foresee it being very tricky to do this while still living together in the same house because of my W's OCD.

My W's OCD and our dynamic around it was such a big element of our old R, and it is one of the elements that MUST change for me. I have a lot of pent up resentment about tolerating it for all these years and I know that I just can't live that way anymore if I am going to be happy. It is going to seriously interfere with my need to GAL because the life I want is one where I am free to invite friends over more frequently, sometimes spontaneously. Sometimes friends that she doesn't like. I have been compromising for all these years and it has really been weighing on me and is a big source of unhappiness in the M for me.

I really don't like going to the opposite extreme and forcing what I want on her either... I do want to compromise where I can. However, I have been compromising for these 8 years way too much to the extent that I'm really unhappy. I can see this being quite difficult for us in the near term, so perhaps we should seek help with this soon from MC. Yes, I know we aren't supposed to do MC at this stage, but this wouldn't be to try to rebuild the M. It would be to try and negotiate some terms for how we can live in the same house while undergoing a trial separation.

[trumpet]

I'm SO not the person to correctly answer this - Sandi and Cadet probably are... but here is my educated guess:

The feeling of 'wanting to end the R' is detachment. That is GAL as we say around here.
You're letting, or really NOT letting your wife control how you feel and act.

I'm just getting to a place in my own sitch where the GAL term means something. My emotions controlled me the first 2 months after BD; I'm still emotional, but now am able to objectively see possibilities of a future without my W.

Our stress to you, and why I'm on this BB, is that I believe in M with all my being. My wife, like yours, has issues. I made a comittment to her, and will not break it.

What is your view on marriage? This site exists for those who believe in hope, in that it's never too late.

There are cases where a marriage needs to end - no doubt. Physical violence, emotional abuse, children or other lives at risk, substance abuse, etc.

[Flight]

I can tell you firsthand, as will Sandi, an in-house separation is very, very difficult. There are several things to look at:

1. A "trial" separation is usually really a trial divorce. Each step away from each other makes it more difficult to reconcile. However, that depends on how you handle your "separation". Some people do better facing the consequences of being alone, facing their choices. (Or leaving behind the family for the AP and possibly seeing the grass is not greener).

2. Depending on where you are in your sitch and what you want to accomplish, you have two choices. To try and not crowd her and rebuild a connectionn slowly, or to be as invisible as you can, truly moving forward without consideration for her other than common courtesy. Often the in-house separation makes it worse because the LBS can't really detach. So they keep adding pressure to the wayward and push them further away.

Personally, I would GAL. You act like you are physically separated. Whatever you would do if you had your own life in your own place, that is what you do. You emotionally detach from her. You are cordial when you see her, but you see her as little as possible. You do your own thing.

As for the social aspects, again, you do as you would if you were single. You let her know you are inviting some people over for an event in case that affects her. She can join, stay in her room, or go elsewhere.

Find out what it is YOU want. You may find out you are better off without her baggage. Or you may find out she has time to think and wants to talk with you about options. Either way, what you have been doing together hasn't worked, and that is what the 180 is about. Try something different and keep doing what works while avoiding what doesn't. You have to be incredibly disciplined to log what works and to know not to be dragged into the old dynamic. Like no long R talks.

[JGuy]

The feeling of 'wanting to end the R' is detachment. That is GAL as we say around here. You're letting, or really NOT letting your wife control how you feel and act.

That would make sense... the possibility of detachment without ending the M seems like walking a fine line to me. Emotionally moving on as thought I were on my own, but without actually going through with divorce. I can see how this would be a smart thing to do in order to give a chance for a new R to replace the old one, if my W decides that she wants the M after all once she sees the kind of person I am when I am detached. Yay! Finally feeling aligned with the advice I'm getting here!

Our stress to you, and why I'm on this BB, is that I believe in M with all my being. My wife, like yours, has issues. I made a comittment to her, and will not break it.

What is your view on marriage? This site exists for those who believe in hope, in that it's never too late.

There are cases where a marriage needs to end - no doubt. Physical violence, emotional abuse, children or other lives at risk, substance abuse, etc.

Thanks for asking, trumpet. My view isn't that far off... I do believe in M very much too. But I would add the following:

My belief is that the spiritual purpose of M is not only procreation and family, but for two people to grow spiritually together, closer to knowing themselves and to God. I believe that only when that purpose is being fulfilled can a M remain happy and healthy (and passionate!). If it's not there, then at best it will be mediocre, but often it will be miserable for at least one spouse. For a M to be able to support this purpose of spiritual growth, it requires BOTH people to be willing to work through the conflicts and issues that arise. Their love for themselves and for each other must be strong enough to motivate them to do the hard work that is necessary. When one partner is unwilling to do the necessary work and face the issues, then the spiritual growth comes to a halt. When this happens, the other partner who is willing to do the work and longs for growth is denied that very essential soul need. I believe that in the eyes of God, it is unfortunate but acceptable to divorce in this case, but only after the willing spouse has tried absolutely everything they can to save the M.

So, the one thing I haven't tried yet is this "ending the old R without actually going through with D". I can see how this may result in a big shift in behavior that could create the possibility for a new R to grow in the old R's place. Since I haven't tried this yet, I want to finally try it now. If this is in fact exactly what detachment and GAL is all about, then that's awesome. I think I might finally be getting it.

[trumpet]

My GAL/detachment feels much like I'm single again, but with a house, a dog, and 3 kids, and lots more responsibility. Oh, and a roommate.

Now, I'm feeling different than I've felt in the past - it took two months of mistakes to get here. I've taken other advice, and working hard to get a WW to come back by pleading and begging and guilting immediately makes them file the D at worst, and makes the fog their in stick around in the least. Either way, you're not helping matters.

From what I can tell, we all make lots of mistakes. Most of us are highly emotional, and are trying to grab lightning bugs with our hands as they flutter by. Every look, every little hope, you hang on.

Make a mistake, pick yourself up, and begin again.

[JGuy]

I just saw my W's email and found that she started contacting the OM again there. She is still crossing the line and saying things to him about how her heart is still with him. Obviously, she doesn't want to lose him.

I'm not entirely surprised about this, given that this contact occurred the day after my W and I had that conversation where we both mutually agreed that it may be time to accept the end. At this point, I'm only a bit disappointed as I was still hoping she might maintain NC. But since she's back to contacting him again, I am firmly shifting gears into moving on with my life.

I'm not sure if I'll confront her about it right away. She did tell me that she would be honest with me and let me know if she did contact him, and she has not done so. So... the dishonesty also continues. I may give her another day or two to tell me about it, and if she doesn't... I will consider it continued dishonesty.

Any advice on how I should handle it at this point? I'm honestly planning to give up myself here anyways. I can't take it anymore.

[trumpet]

JGuy,

My wife promised to our pastor to no longer continue any contact. Somewhere between telling him we weren't going to any more sessions, and Christmas, she started up again. She gave me hope, my flame lit WAY HIGH, and then I burned the sitch, and her. Drove her away, and she started up with OM...

You can choose to give up. You can choose to stay and work on yourself and see if time helps the situation, and your W can work on herself.

Remember, a WW is an addict. Stress (life, relationship, kids) is the trigger. Putting stress back into her life will give her a mental reason to keep going back to the well.

[Zues126]

I spent last night and this morning taking in what Zeus and Azzork have said. Until recently I have been solidly in the state of "wanting to save the M" and have been subject to the feelings surrounding that. In this state, I feel like all I want to do is talk to my W, work on the R, try to rebuild, etc. I am recognizing that you guys are right, those things are a dead end right now. In this state, I have trouble sleeping at night and I get ongoing, unbearable back and neck tension from the feelings of anger and of having no control over my life.

Only in the past week have I began to explore a different state of "wanting to end the M", which has brought a very different set of positive feelings, which are motivating me to do the exact things that you guys are advising me to do. In this state, I feel a strong impulse to GAL, find myself again, begin really working on myself, etc. I feel excited about detaching and what the future holds. I feel a glimpse of freedom from the many restrictions that this M has placed on me, especially the way that I have felt trapped like a prisoner in my own house because of the way that I have accommodated my W's OCD. In this state, I sleep well at night and my back and neck tension goes away and I feel a sense of control over my own life.

I'm really confused about the advice I'm getting here because it seems like an unnatural hybrid between these two states, which goes strongly against the grain of the way my emotions work. You guys keep pushing me to avoid the impulse of wanting to end the M, yet you also keep pushing me to do all of the things that I would be naturally motivated to do if I was to embrace that state and go with it. I feels impossible for me to remain in the state of "wanting to save the M" while proceeding with all of the things that I would need to do if I was in the opposite state. My emotions just don't work that way... it's very confusing!!

What am I missing here? Is there some hybrid state between the two that I can embrace which can set me on a path to doing all of the right things, but without burning any bridges that would prevent me from saving the M? Maybe I need to embrace "ending the M in its current form". ie: Walking away from the old R once and for all to let it die, but without being closed to the possibility that a totally new R with my W could take it's place in the future.

Hmmm.. that feels right at the moment, but I'm not supposed to follow feelings. Arghhh... so confusing!

JGuy feeling very lost today.

You are getting very close here.

See, what you 'want' isn't really helpful right now. Want is nothing short of saying you are attached to a certain outcome. You 'want' to save the M, but you can't necessarily do that as it's not in your control, so by defense you decide to 'want' to end the marriage, because even though that's not really what you want at least if you tell yourself it's what you want you can get what you want. Want want want. Attachment control attachment control attachment control.

The answer is letting go. Doing what's in front of you. Having faith that the world will keep turning and you will be ok, even if you don't have a white knuckled grip on how things play out.

The road in front of you doesn't change no matter what you think you want. If you knew 100% you didn't want to save this marriage, what would you do? You'd detach, GAL, make 180s to improve yourself for the future, go through your grieving process, and start rebuilding your life as an individual. This, by staggering coincidence, is EXACTLY the same thing you would do if you were committed to doing everything in your power to save the M. So...the question of what you want is really irrelevant, because it doesn't change the road in front of you, and tell yourself what you will you really have no clue what you want. I've seen people say they don't want to R that find themselves open to it when the opportunity comes, and others that thought they did that think twice in the same situation. How you feel will change, so focus on what WON'T change, the road in front of your feet.

It's like if you were trying to decide whether to lose 10 pounds or 20 pounds...either way, it starts with the same decisions today. Just get on the treadmill and see where it takes you.

Finally, where does fear come from? A lot of times it is from trying to control something you can't control. If you decide you want your M to be saved it creates fear because you can't control that, so you might not get what you want, and you are helpless and powerless. Not fun. That's why many people decide to welcome D, at least they can CONTROL that outcome. This isn't a good way to steer your ship. Instead it makes sense to set healthy goals that you are in complete control of. Such as "I will not take any actions that would hurt the potential to save the M", or "I will spend 15 minutes a day reflecting on what I am grateful for", or "I will spend 5 minutes before any text messages or emails with WAS to make sure that I am responding from a place that represents my highest self and core beliefs", or other goals like that. These will empower you, because they are absolutely in your control.

I think in general setting the goal to not make any conclusions for 3-6 months, and just walking the road in front of you and becoming the best man you can be and in a consistent manner with your core beliefs, GALing, 180ing, and detaching...this is what you should be doing. And yes, this means you let go of the M. But letting go isn't the same as throwing it away.

[Gmum]

Brilliant, Zues.

[Azzork]

There is no M to save or to give up on.

As Zues says, no matter what, you walk down the same road.