I desire the same things Mark. I remember having those conversations telling my W I wanted intimacy, I wanted to feel wanted, I wanted to feel like I was at least on the list of her priorities even if not at the top. It seems all she ever heard was I wanted sex and I can understand why. All those feelings of intimacy, the only time I would experience a taste of them was when fooling around right before sex or during it. She could never understand why I wouldn't just want to "just have sex and be done". Why I wanted to fool around and do stuff, even if it was ALL for her. I just wanted that closeness and was willing to do anything for her to have it.
I think your doing a great job with giving her space and time, who knows if it will be never. Maybe she desires the same things but is incapable right now. I know before BD I did too many things wrong and I know they didn't work and I see what your doing and I have hope it will. It's important to understand their inability or unwillingness to provide that intimacy to us had nothing to do with is. I know I took it extremely personally before and it caused me all kinds of issues.
Just as we have to face with our S's comming back I think we do have to come to a place where we accept any outcome. Maybe she will provide those needs, maybe she won't. I know this is something I've been thinking about lately and came up at my last IC. That if my W came back tomorrow things would go (eventually) to a magical place. We would have that intimacy and fix our M. But then I realized it wouldn't look that way. It would still be a hard road ahead with much of the battle you're facing now. I have hope things will still get better. Maybe this desire we have is something we need to work on instead of expecting it from them, idk.
Keep on your path, you're doing a great job.
Last edited by Fogg; 12/31/1508:59 PM.
Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
There are a couple of obvious questions I want to ask.
What exactly does intimacy look, feel and behave like in relation to you?
How will you know when you have it?
What are the LLs and is this a factor?
What have you done to seek that intimacy?
How does sex fit in?
Does sex start with or finish with intimacy?
What does it look, feel and behave like to W?
Whose responsibility is it?
As always not now V or hold on there .......
Btw you can tell me almost anything, if you don't ask for help then how can it be given. I once said you seemed like one of the most grounded here. Even superheroes need help sometimes.
I think maybe you already have a lot of it, it's just hiding under the table.
Happy New Year
Last edited by Vanilla; 12/31/1510:19 PM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
True. I think we might be more like our S's than we realize also. In one of those posts where you said asking for help as a sign of weakness. I immediately thought "that's exactly my W". I had to step back a second and realize my actions show I think the exact same way, I've just never said it. I rarely asked for help at all. Even when I moved to a 3rd floor apartment I only got a little help from W to move some things. I spent days carrying IKEA boxes up all those stairs and the thought of calling my friend didn't even cross my mind. In the middle of our M when we moved another time we did the same. Just me and her boxed and moved everything, I never asked anyone for help. If I couldn't do something I just would do it in the past. Unless it was absolutely needed, then I need to.
Interesting to see where V leads you with those questions, prepare for some digging. I'm sure the line of questioning will benefit me also in the future.
Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
I It's important to understand their inability or unwillingness to provide that intimacy to us had nothing to do with is. I know I took it extremely personally before and it caused me all kinds of issue
Is this true Fogg? " has nothing to do with is (us)".
After a lot of reading and talking with my therapist about intimacy. Be it physical or emotional. It would appear that we tend to choose partners who match our own abilities. Our partners are mere reflections of us most of the time. My therapist asked me "how do you avoid intimacy in relationships?" This is a big question. Still one I am figuring out. Intimacy is a challenge it requires us to be completely vulnerable and exposed - it is our partners seeing the good, the bad, the great and the ugly in us, and loving and accepting us and staying anyway.
Are you sure Fogg that you want to be truly seen? Is it wife's inability and unwillingness, or yours?
Jelly, I'd have to think about that more regarding my own issues, seems to be some conflicting thoughts of mine that need to be incorporated better. At the very least the way I phrased it is misleading as its not as black and white as saying "nothing to do with us".
I guess what I was getting at is the actions of other people are about them and not us so we shouldn't take it personally. I still basically agree with that but I can see how our actions, picking them as a partner, can give insight into our own issues because we chose people that are broken in the same way we are.
It's all perspective I guess. S's problems are S's and not mine, and vice-versa. Just becaue we might both have the same problem doesn't make the other responsible or the cause of it. The issue is, like you hinted toward, am I looking at her and seeing my own issue reflected(something I could work on and change) or her issue (that has nothing to do it me but I attribute to something wrong with me).
Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
Its complicated this intimacy thing Fogg. I appreciate the struggle. Where I begin and end with my partner is something I am also nutting out. We're all broken is what I am learning, some of us are just better accepting it in themselves and others. All I can change is my relationship with intimacy and possibly be a guide for spouse in them feeling open and comfortable in exploring their own.
Ultimately I think intimacy this is the crux of any relationship, there is something in the other person that both feels familiar but different. Recognising oneself in the other and attempting to bring the matching pieces together. But intimacy is also recognising that no other person can match you completely, and you have to come to know where the differences are a love and accept them regardless. It is the ultimate experience of being known and being together but separate.
Fogg I really don't know, I have my training wheels on for this one.
We can only keep turning up. Love seeing you here Fogg, you are great man.
There are a couple of obvious questions I want to ask.
What exactly does intimacy look, feel and behave like in relation to you?
Intimacy to me, is closeness & sharing. Closeness in terms of emotionally or physically near to someone. Sharing is giving and taking what is offered to us from someone else. I am sure there is more, but in a nutshell, that is what intimacy is. If it is one sided in any way...the lack of sharing makes it something else. ..that we have all experienced.
It could be a sexual encounter or a walk holding hands, a phone call with a lover you have not seen in weeks. Merely sitting on the couch is not necessarily intimate, but if there is shared warmth or expression of love given then more so. Sex doesn't not guarantee intimacy truly either. Women can disassociate and the experience becomes nothing but motions and is unfulfilling.
I don't know that intimacy even requires two people to be in love wither, certainly the sharing part is more rewarding if they do
What does it feel like, even today i have always felt 'intimacy' in my stomach / abdomen. Not just anticipation, but during and after. Feeling the warmth of a woman in my arms and her holding tight. It us the difference between hugging your sister and your college girlfriend.
How does it behave? Not sure i get what your looking for,, but the sharing drives me for more closeness. I know that has been an issue over the last 1/2 decade at least where i seek more closeness and wife cannot / will not reciprocate. If her lack of desire for intimacy keeps the sharing to minimum, it makes a lot of the time we are together, just motions.
How will you know when you have it?
I have always felt when it was there. When i was 16 i worked with a girl, we were friends. She used to stand next to me and hold her pinky finger in mine. Mixed with glances and fun conversation, this was very intimate to me. A college friend, used to sit on the same chair as me with her arm around each others waists so we didn't fall off. We would spend the evenings out like that, sharing the company and enjoyment if music. This was a woman who i only had sex with once, but we were very close in terms of conversational topics, knowledge, etc. There was sharing., time together, etc.
The opposite is if there is no sharing or real closeness. An example, if i give my wife a leg / back rubdown, sometimes there is intimacy...sometimes not. Me physically touching her body is not enough, me sharing myself is not enough, it becomes clinical sometimes. I can massage her, back, butt, inner thighs almost the same way every time (often a erotic prelude to a sexual experience between us), but instead of feeling the closeness she will discuss mundane topics to keep the emotional closeness to a minimum, not allowing it to become more. The last time she gave me oral sex (once in last 4 year) i had asked for it and was all worked up. ..Anyway it was so mechanical and distant that, even though it all worked like it supposed to, but was just so unfulfilling i told myself i would never ask again. There was shame afterwards that I have not been able to pinpoint either, something maybe had to do with me asking and knowing after that she did not want to do it.
What are the LLs and is this a factor?
My primary LL are PT and AoS. I have felt intimacy through conversations and outings QT. I can pull through the memory and find examples where, QT WoA and gifts have been intimate, but these are not strong driving forces for me so my brain likely diminished the importance. A couple of examples (both made me cry) - wife bought me a guitar with lessons for xmas last year. She went through and rediscovered a dream of something i always wanted to do, just never did and she made it a reality.
For words, wife finished her degree program this summer. For 2.5 years she worked towards it at nights and weekends. I shouldered the brunt of everything else because i wanted her to succeed (and at the beginning i was trying to curry favor - i know now, then i was a dope). Anyways, the whole time she never said thank you, not once. After graduation, she gave me her Stoll with a very thoughtful 'thank you, couldn't have done it without you' style letter written on it. it was very intimate WoA.
What have you done to seek that intimacy?
Does groveling count Seriously, i have spent a good deal of effort trying to figure out what she wants and needs and have tried to fulfill these needs for a long time. I tried this for ao long with the hopes that she would reciprocate. I have since learned that this s BS and is not fair, not to her and certainly not to me if she is not willing to share intimacy.
I have since given from a place of love without much expectation of return. I have also tried creating situations where intimacy could happen. Being in a constant position to receive intimacy, especially when you are sometimes just not going to get any, well that is difficult to do. To do this without expectations is not been easy, no doubt.
Basically i am left waiting for her terms instead of me reaching out for rejection...which was so often, maybe not near as much now...but i dont try nearly as much now as I used to. Sad really. Fear of rejection and not wanting to put pressure on her...not a great recipe for Stud-Muffins.
We both initiate hugs, cuddles and conversation. A few times i have started a make out session where it was not going to go anywhere beyond kissing and lite petting. We both enjoyed that very much.
My big issue / question that i have struggled with, how do you continue to give without an expectation for return, while not having your needs met...or at least not enough? We fall into the trap here, whereas we keep saying we are responsible for our own happiness. That doesn't mean that i should be happy without feeling love and intimacy, which of course you cannot do on your own.
How does sex fit in?
To me, sex can be the apex of intimate relationship. If there is sharing and desire from both it is wonderful. Over the last decade, that relationship has dwindled. I have seen her check out far more times than not. I feel her the last few times, differently, more engaged but who can tell if this is a spark of the future or the past.
I loved the closeness that i used to feel with sex when we were younger. Now, it just isn't there near as much, sex or intimacy. We are in a starved marriage.
Does sex start with or finish with intimacy?
Lately,, more shades of intimacty before intercorse. After, not so much. When she climax, she wont even let me touch her, ahe becomes hypersensitive...i want to hold her close, but just doesnt happen. Then in the days after, more withdrawn from other lesser forms of intimacy too. Sample size is small over last couple of years. It us as if sometimes i feel like she just cannot handle it.
Weird tidbit, most times ahe cant handle me holding her hand she instead reverses the grip so that it is more neutral or her holding mine. Sometimes not the case. I am thinking that is tell tell sign of her not wanting to be controlled or owned or expected of things...which has been prevalent in many interactions to date.
What does it look, feel and behave like to W?
Not sure what you are asking here. I can dig deep, just not sure what u looking to get.
Whose responsibility is it?
Should be both, but while we are 'rekindling our friendship, where none was for years' it is more on her. She said multiple times that she didn't want to pretend anymore, when it came to sex or closeness....i guess i just assumed it meant she no longer attracted to me. I know that it could be deeper, like to the point where she could NOT allow me to touch her as she felt used by me for sex when our friendship had dwindled, and well, we know that in conjunction with the past hurts usually amounts to bad outcomes. Some kind of transference, right? At the time she would cringe at my touch or peer at me with eyes of hate when i walked into a room. Yes our friendship was dead and i was as to blame as she. I am here so i am giving her time. I have made it a point of giving her the space she needs, but damn is that hard. I am giving her benefit if doubt on her motives, certainly she is not breaking down the door to get out, she reaches for me at night, we talk and laugh together, we have been planning nights and weekends out for the upcoming year already. Sigh, just so phucking stupid how long it took to figure all of this out. So hard to know that our marriage could be better IF only.
Now i am not dumb to the fact this can all be manipulation from her, but she would be such a dark soul to go this deep...that i really cant fathom that and haven't seen the evidence, just depression, self-hatred and resentment.
As always not now V or hold on there .......
Id tell you, if you were out of bounds.
Thank you so much for your time, this was good look. I am so grateful of your patience with all of us folks here.
Do I sound like I am just impatient, I get that feeling after rereading my own typed words.
