WW, My Addiction, Patience is HARD

[gs9]

If WI is a no-fault state you have no say in the matter. If she wants to file there is really nothing you can do. A spouse does not need approval to D in no fault state. Sure you can contest different aspects of it but all that will do is tick her off and cost you a lot of money in attorney fees.

I'm sorry you're going through this but it really does get better once you have some closure on what is happening next. Once my WXW filed I then knew where we were headed. Once a final date was set I then knew when it would be over. Once that day passed I now know the next step is to refi the house and she moves out. Having the dates, not being in limbo anymore helped create some peace. I'm not saying give up or that it's over but The truth is it was really over when she brought OM into the M and continued to choose OM over you.

Get up.....dust yourself off.....and be the best Trumpet you can be. If she is choosing OM over you than she doesn't deserve you

[tl2]

I've slipped up, and the more talking I do, the more chance I'm going to stick the foot in my mouth.

And this is why not talking at all about the M is one of the rules. So are you going to follow that rule now?

For those who think they can fix the marriage by yourself - you can't.

I hope nobody thinks this. You can only 'fix' or improve or control yourself. By changing yourself in a positive way that works, you make a new dynamic with your spouse possible IF THEY SO CHOOSE.

Ugh. Since WI is a no-fault state, should I just let her file?

What does that mean? She can file whether you 'let' her or not, right?

Sounds like it's time for you to actually drop the rope, focus on yourself, and prepare for the road ahead. It's not over til it's over. Whether she stays or goes, you need to be at your best to deal with it all constructively. THAT is what DB is about. It's about getting YOU back first.

[trumpet]

Sandi and tl2,

My W is pushing us to file for the D as a 'collaborative' divorce.
It saves us money.

I have repeatedly told her I don't believe in divorce.
She says 'well, you're always concerned about money, this will make it less painful monetarily for you'. Even split, 50/50 kids, she 'doesn't want my money'.

She's mentioning to other people that she's probably going to have to church shop and find another one, as it's a conservative church, and adultery/divorce would be something the pastor would mention isn't good, and would feel that she's got a scarlet letter pinned to her chest every time she walks in the door.

She's really checked out now. She even calls herself a whore - which I have NEVER called her (said that to me Sunday night). She is in a rough spot, can't sleep, having anxiety attacks, and wants it to be over. To be over for her, the escape is the D, the light at the end of the tunnel, and her friends are reinforcing it. Heck, even my family and friends have mentioned that I should just file and be over with it. Every time I have said words or done something to undermine the R, she has used that as another brick in the D wall, and further evidence that I'm not worth being with. She wants someone who will not hurt her, and love her for who she is right now. She says I'm not that person, and doubts I ever was.

When one is an adulterer, and one is the survivor, one is working REALLY hard to repair the damage they have caused, once they are no longer wayward.

In my case, both of us are hurting, and both of us need to work hard to repair the damage caused. I've not held up my end of the bargain, as the pain and aloneness has really gotten to me, as the pornography was a fake copy of my wife's love. Without it, and I'm going on 2 months without any porn or masturbation, you realize you never had real love with it, only fake feelings that masked the error of my ways. So, now I'm longing to be with my wife, and I now recognize what I need, but that I haven't gotten my needs met in YEARS, and my wife, the same - none of her needs met, as well as the damage I've caused with the pornography, and found someone that she thinks will better meet her needs, even if he's 3 hours away. She has said she owes it to herself to see if he's the right one, as she's pretty sure I'm the wrong one.

We both have issues with communication - using passive/aggressive language, sarcasm, and hurtful words instead of telling someone we're hurt or scared. It's a negative feeback loop, a carousel we've been on for years. It's like a well-worn groove in the pavement. Jumping the groove takes SOOO much work.

My wife's BIG revelation to me on Sunday was that she has always wanted to feel safe, and that she hasn't felt safe with me. There is no domestic violence, but lots of arguments. I asked her what being safe meant, but she didn't want to go farther... to her, she goes into a little panic attack when I walk in the door at night, for example.

I work a stressful job - auto sales, so I get beat up on a daily basis from people who think it's their right to treat me poorly to get a better deal. I understand that is my occupation, so I've learned patience over the years, but the hours and grind do take a toll on your wife and kids. Some days, I'd come home in a bad mood. Over the years, she has come to dread me coming home. That stress has made it home - at least once a week.

So, after talking it over by writing this out, I see these things:

1.)No divorce for me... I will not pull the trigger. She must.
2.)Completely DB, not halfway. Re-read the DR book I have.
3.)She wants space, this will take months, give her the time.
4.)I have no control over her filing, and how she treats me. I can only control myself. And I have done a poor job of that.
5.)My healing from the pornography addiction will happen without her. I kept thinking that we could both heal by working together, or that I could lean on her, since I love her, and she would want to help, but that's not realistic. Not in the least.
6.)My alertness and level of communication in relationships must go exponentially higher.

Sandi et al, let me know what to do. I'm really feeling in a low spot, and feel the anxiety in me right now. When my shift is done at work, I'm headed home, but will probably just hide in the basement for the rest of the night.

[tl2]

My wife's BIG revelation to me on Sunday was that she has always wanted to feel safe, and that she hasn't felt safe with me. There is no domestic violence, but lots of arguments. I asked her what being safe meant, but she didn't want to go farther

Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.

Like the rest of us, your W likely has plenty of adolescent-level ideas about relationships that she still buys into, consciously or not. We all see what we want to see. If she were with someone else, that person could likely do something you do that she would accuse you of making her not feel safe, yet if that other person did it she would either ignore it or not even notice it. You can't separate the baggage from the internal mind games and justifications and whatever really is going on with her because you're not in her head.

Just drop the rope and focus on you. It's all you can really control anyway.

[sandi2]

My wife's BIG revelation to me on Sunday was that she has always wanted to feel safe, and that she hasn't felt safe with me. There is no domestic violence, but lots of arguments. I asked her what being safe meant, but she didn't want to go farther... to her, she goes into a little panic attack when I walk in the door at night, for example.

I securities can cause women to not feel very safe. When my H decided to be self-employed, and then I saw him doing nothing......I was not feeling very secure b/c I knew we could lose our home, etc. security is a very big deal for women.

Women who have a H whose behavior with other women are too flirtatious, has one on one friendships with women, and things along those lines.....can cause women to feel insecure/unsafe.

IMHO, if there has been excessive arguing, that could be grounds for feeling insecure in the M. And let's be honest here, how many of us can get into a heated argument without raising our voices? A man shouting, cursing, yelling demands or threats, is intimidating for most females........especially if it's her H.

When you were talking about your job and going home in a bad mood, it made me think of a relative of mine. Sure, his job could become stressful (most jobs are, at times), and he would go home and take it out on his W. She lived in dread for when it was time for him to come home. I think what you said about people acting as if they have a right to treat you badly is key here. You need some way to release that resentment you have had to keep checked all day. Your family is looking at you (their protector and leader) who acts as if it's his right to lower the boom on them, b/c he had a bad day. You can't say what you'd like to say at work, so you go home and say it to her. My advice is to find something (like a punching bag) that you can let out all your anger before going home. Just a few minutes in the garage punching a boxer's type of heavy bag could really make a big difference in letting go of that pentup resentment.

I have been guilty of doing the same thing, so I get it. If we could just see how unlovely we appear during those moments, It may encourage us to not take it out on the ones we love (and want them to love us) the most.

1. Find a way to release pentup stress.
2. Invest yourself in a communication's class, read some books, or see someone who could teach you a better way of communicating. Not only does bad communication take its toll on a relationship........but it could be a problem in your job.
3. Find support and encouragement about you addiction from another source......and not your W. She is not emotionally or mentally prepared to help you overcome something, when she feels completely depleted herself. Although a couple should be able to support each other through love, it is just too unlikely if you are straddled the divorce line. If she holds out and doesn't file for a D, and if the M is reconciled, you will need a very good therapist to guide the two of you about all that has affected the M...........and about the porn. It is a source of pain for her, too.
4. Stop telling her you don't believe in divorce.

She's mentioning to other people that she's probably going to have to church shop and find another one, as it's a conservative church, and adultery/divorce would be something the pastor would mention isn't good, and would feel that she's got a scarlet letter pinned to her chest every time she walks in the door.

It's better if she'll repent and seek forgiveness, instead of just going to another church and trying to keep her sins hidden. At any rate, you have to let her deal with it. As her H, you may instinctly want to protect her from any embarrassment or ridicule, however, getting her heart right is a job she'll have to do......and/or deal with the circumstances of her choices in life.

When one is an adulterer, and one is the survivor, one is working REALLY hard to repair the damage they have caused, once they are no longer wayward.

Interesting, how you refer to her as an adulterer and yourself as the survivor. Let me ask you a few questions. Do you see your years of porn on the same level as her adultery? Is one worse than the other? If the church knew about your use of porn, would you feel as though you had a great big "P" branded on your chest?

[trumpet]

Interesting, how you refer to her as an adulterer and yourself as the survivor. Let me ask you a few questions. Do you see your years of porn on the same level as her adultery? Is one worse than the other? If the church knew about your use of porn, would you feel as though you had a great big "P" branded on your chest?

Sandi,

Interesting, good, or interesting, bad?
On the spectrum of sins, in regards to marriage, my heart has always felt that the actual affairs did more damage to the M, as her heart was involved. I understand, from a Christian perspective, that all sins are the same. And we have all been forgiven through the blood of Christ.
From a clergy perspective, my addiction was something I kept hidden, and when confronted with the sin in previous years, it went away, only to reoccur, but was repentant of every time I went to church. For clergy, an adultery takes things to where you're in willing disobedience, and have no desire to change. I guess I'm in that camp.

Do I want to be a survivor of a wife who had 2 affairs? Yes. I think of myself as a survivor. Am I an adulterer? That is something that I've seen people write about, and I hear yes and no, depending on how you want to interpret it. I feel in the technical term, yes. But I have absolutely no emotional attachment to any one woman besides my wife, I haven't given myself over to one-on-one contact. I've only been to a strip club twice in my life, and didn't really enjoy myself. It's on my 'no go' list from now to the end of time, which I'm fine with. So, has porn been a way to escape and to fill a need? Yes. With a wife who has 0 sex drive, and thinks of sex as 'icky' due to her being raped in college, as well as me being high sex drive, it drove me almost insane, and that's how I got hooked. I was looking at porn before the marriage, though, and it was a stress reliever. It came and went with the beginning of our marriage, since she was of the opinion that she could hold sex over me for anything I did - one slip up, and sex was off the table, sometimes for months at a time. My needs weren't met, and thus, I felt I had to do something. She used the same logic for her affairs.

When we first went to counseling together, we were both told that we BOTH cheated on each other. To my wife, it's the same, or equal, and since she put up with it for 15 years, it holds more weight to her. Of course, that's WW spin, as she recognizes that she's had or is having an EA, but typically says 'but I dealt with 15 years of porn and crap from you!' as a trailing statement.

Are we both in the wrong? Yes.
Have we both been hurt? Yes.
Are we both working through the hurt to repair the damage? Right now, no.

The pain of the PA from 2 years ago was connected to the EA that started happening in June/July, as I never dealt with the PA when it happened - it was brushed under the rug so I had an excuse for the porn habit. The wound is very deep, and very fresh, which puts my hurt and anger on the surface.

I think my words to my wife come off as 'I'm MORE hurt than you', now that I write this. She knows that she hurt me, but doesn't know what to do, since she's dealing with hurt herself.

During the time in the last month where we did have R talk, I have brought up that therapy has helped me a ton, and my wife thinks that it did as well. However, she doesn't think therapy will help her. She's always had a strong opinion that I should be a mind reader, and has been called out on it during the sessions we had. She still can't come to grips with expressing her emotions, and working on communicating with me directly. She says 'that's just not me, and I don't want to work on it, so you'll just have to accept that'. Her comments in the last week support her opinion, saying that 'I just can't give you what you need, and I don't think I ever will'.

I think that's WW speak, and I do think we can learn better communication skills than being disrespectful with passive/aggressiveness, sarcasm, and eyerolls. It's up to her to want to work on it. I want to work on it, and have the books to prove it. Working my way through my porn addiction, and divorce remedy first, as that seemed like would help the dumpster fire of a marriage I have right now. After reading divorce remedy chapters again last night, my DB'ing needs to have the patience of Christ, which the hurt I have makes really hard. It's something I'm working on every day.

I've dealt with plenty in my life, not as much as some others on here, but I never prepared for myself without my wife. It does scare me, as well it should, but it's how I move forward. I'm not a sobbing mess, or sit and listen to sappy songs all day. There is no pleading right now with her, I'm giving her the space she's asking for. From what I read to her mom, the checks are being cut, and the call is already made to the lawyer. That scares me. It makes me want to plead and beg, to promise unreasonable things, to beg God to help me. All the pleading and begging, though, won't make her stop how she feels. The ones that I trust to tell her the truth - that divorce is not the answer - are about 25% of the voices talking with her right now. The other 75%, like her mother, are telling her to kick me out of the house, and get moving on with her life to someone who will treat her right.

[PigPen]

You're very honest and can see this from many sides Trumpet. I have a lot of respect for the path that you're on and the decisions you're making. Sandi is the pro here so I won't interject other than to say I believe you're a good man living in a tough situation.

If D is the answer for your W, you will be ok. I'm where you are too and have worked through addiction as part of my M. Porn wasn't my main issue but it was there as a numb-er too. Now that you're free of it you're going to feel everything and the ability to do so is the greatest gift you can give yourself. I've said many times if getting my W back meant being addicted again, I wouldn't take her. If that's how it has to be than that's how it has to be. Life is so much richer now with clarity.

There is always another part of our stories too. Right now yours is painful and awful and terrifying. In time it may not seem that way.

Keep walking in the light Trumpet. Someone else commended you for your honesty with a subject that is hard to talk about and I'll do the same. Your courage and integrity will take you into a beautiful relationship be that with your W or someone else.

PP

[trumpet]

PigPen,

I'm honored. Your postings are something I look forward to every day. I'm an honest car salesman - yes, there really is such a thing! I sleep well at night. I don't take advantage of people at work, like most places do. And I have a lot of repeat biz, which means people like and respect me.

I always craved respect from others - I am a people pleaser, have been since I was a wee little lad. The respect was always something I desperately needed in my marriage, and I see that now I didn't get it, and my porn was a way to mirage the disrespect.

Can I ask you and others something?

The biggest incongruency I see with Sandi's Rules is how to be pithy and be away from my wife, GAL, while at the same time be present with her and the kids, and being happy while doing it. It's such a fine balancing act, and something I've struggled with. I'm home with the family, and spending time in the basement reading most of the time, but spend time eating and interacting with the kids, going to church, doing activities.

Anyone have any pointers from their own experience?

[trumpet]

Zues's words in the last 2 days really got me to good thoughts about my sitch.

It's hard NOT to know what my wife is doing, and not spying on her, but I realize now I'm just putting myself into a spin. Better not to know what's coming up, so I don't make a possible good moment with my W go upside down by anger from what I read.

My 14D doesn't want to go with W and her sis and bro to friends place for New Years. I told her I could change plans and spend the night with her. She was happy about that, and really, I was, too. Planning on asking her what she wants me to make for us to celebrate. Being in 8th grade, it's a difficult age, and I'm actually bonding way more with her than I ever have, and I have more meaningful discussions with her than my wife does, or at least it seems. She shows a lot of emotion, like I do, so I need to help her understand, control, and work with her emotions instead of letting them take a hold of her.

I'm pretty positive the W file next week. I've told my pastor and my brother - my support network only. My parents are on a month vacation - they don't need to know. I had a really good cry this morning after I showered, realizing I wanted to write a letter to my old flame from high school, the only other woman I've ever been with, to apologize for being such a jerk at times when we were together. I'll probably write the letter, but not send it. It will need time to percolate.

What got me in tears was that I will probably never write a letter like that to my W. She wouldn't want one, and it would make things so much worse. Maybe long after a D... maybe. The realization that this might be the end of the M, in it's current form, was a sad moment.

I have done a good job GAL in the last 24 hours... hey, don't make fun of me - I made it a day without asking for reassurances, talking to my W, texting her for anything but the kids... one day down, many more days to go. Heck, I didn't even tell her the son's dr's appt. wasn't needed - we got there, he already got his booster, and they apologized. Something I don't need to tell her. In the past, I would have probably said something, and it would have made her feel bad, no matter how I said it, and she would have gotten angry at me or herself.

My brother, and a couple of others who know my sitch at work just say it's time to move on past her. I now know that I must trust my beliefs - I don't believe in divorce, so their words fall to the ground. I can't trust my feelings to end the marriage, no matter how sad and lonely I am. I can't tell my wife I want to date, or how lonely I am, because I'm just hurting. The hurting will fade.

When she asked to 'back the hell away', I said OK. This conversation happended on Tuesday, I believe. She said - will you? I said yes. She said she'd called the lawyer, and that she was just confused on how it all would go down, but that she thought we were finally done, and couldn't take the hurt anymore.
The only time I got her to get closer to me was my first attempt at DB'ing... it was an ok attempt, but not as good as it could have been. I'm stronger now, and I've cried some tears seeing a possible death of the marriage. I think for me, it's put me in a place where I can no hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. No amount of begging will truly get her back. Her panic attacks and words on Sunday tell me she's just as conflicted inside as she ever has - my efforts really did put another wedge in us.

I have begun to think of myself back at college, without an attachment - how did I make it day to day? What did I do? How did I act? Of course the kids are here now, and I'm 20 years older, but I'm going back to those memories, good memories, to remember who I was back then, and how I made my life an enjoyable one. Was I this sad all the time? No. I had hope for a future, and confidence in who I was.

Thinking of taking dancing classes, or maybe Judo. Judo seems interesting. I know I want to jump out of a plane next year. I might take a trip on my own in January, if the weather is decent. Anyone have suggestions for a day or two trip in the Midwest?

[trumpet]

What do you say to a WW when after DB'ing, and GAL, when they complain they think you're distant and not interested in them?

It's script, I know that. Just don't know how to exactly respond. Validate, yes.

But what do you say when they say 'I can see you're pulling away, and that tells me you're not interested in making this work'... or something along those lines? The first bad attempt at DB'ing, my W did say something like that. Now that I'm actually doing what ya'll told me I should have been doing from the beginning, I want to be prepared, if the opportunity arises.