WW is onboard with trying to save the M

[PigPen]

Yikes. Sorry Jguy, but "I'm sorry things are over with us and I'm committed to working on my marriage right now. No further communication can happen with you again." takes about 19 - 22 seconds to say...if said slowly.

20 minutes is along time for an accidental conversation. Not trying to rain on your parade but tread lightly my friend.

PP

[JGuy]

Yes, I agree with you both Azzork and PP about the inappropriateness of the 20 minute conversation. I pointed this out to my W.

Today is our 8 year wedding anniversary, by the way! We are going to dinner together tonight while my parents stay home with our son. I wrote her a letter and just gave it to her. In it, I invited her to do the following:

1. Show me that she is committed to zero contact with the OM. Show me her plan for what she will say next time if again they accidentally encounter each other.

2. Show me that I can trust her commitment to NC by sharing her passwords with me. I made a list of blank spaces on the back of the letter for Gmail, FB, iPhone, etc.

[trumpet]

JGuy,

Don't be the one to shoot yourself in the foot. I tried something very similar to what you did, and my wife got cold and distant. Do you think forcing her to produce that info right now will put you closer to reconciling?

Just enjoy the dinner. No R talk. Pretend you're on a date with someone new. Your letter put expectations galore on your dinner tonight.

Just wanted you to think before you made a possible mistake. My wife and I had a 'date night' that completely blew up because of my expectations. Live and learn in my case.

[JGuy]

JGuy,

Don't be the one to shoot yourself in the foot. I tried something very similar to what you did, and my wife got cold and distant. Do you think forcing her to produce that info right now will put you closer to reconciling?

Just enjoy the dinner. No R talk. Pretend you're on a date with someone new. Your letter put expectations galore on your dinner tonight.

Just wanted you to think before you made a possible mistake. My wife and I had a 'date night' that completely blew up because of my expectations. Live and learn in my case.

I get what you're saying. In fact, it is exactly what one of the several voices in my head is saying!

I am finding it very difficult to walk the fine line between being impatient with too many expectations and pushing her further away, versus abandoning myself by minimizing my own needs, which is what I have done WAY too much for the entire R.

I really did intend for it to be an invitation, not a demand. If she chooses not to take the invitation, then I will be unhappy, and I will say so. I just can't minimize and abandon myself anymore. Behind this is the fact that I still have not decided whether or not I'm really willing to continue on my end, trying to save the M. To keep me going, I really do need to see SOME reasonable steps taken on her part, even if they are small. It is disappointing just how small the steps might have to be at this stage, so maybe the amount of patience required is something I haven't fully accepted yet.

[sandi2]

Today, my W and I had a conversation in which she reiterated just how uncertain she is about the chemistry between us and whether we are really right for each other at all. She agrees that she does have childhood issues that block intimacy with me and cause it to leak outside the M, but she also thinks that I just may be the wrong match for her.

I believe her uncertainties are very common in WW's. In most cases, the WW has felt emotionally detached from her H for a period of time. At the moment, she feels no attraction/desire, and it is a scary thing to think about "giving up" the OM and all the emotions tied to the A, and go back into a relationship with you. As long as she has any other man in her head, it will block feelings of desire for her H.

Originally Posted By: Azzork
It

sounds like the two of you are doing a TON of talking.

How does continually discussing her lack of attraction towards you increase her attraction to you?

Good question Azzork. It probably doesn't, but I think it may be good for other reasons. We are talking to explore the truth, find out what each other really wants, increasing our understanding of where things went wrong with the M to get better clarity and make better decisions about how to move forward, what to work on individually, etc. We want to make decisions based on reason and wisdom instead of emotion and fears

Some talk would be okay IF she had ended the A and has come through the hardest part of withdrawals. However, she has done neither, so to continue going down the road of R talk, is really not as beneficial as you might want to believe.

You are the one who is sensitive and craves emotional connection. As being the same type myself, I think you may feel emotional connection by having deep & meaningful conversations. To be denied that connection may seem like you are abandoning yourself at the darkest time. I use to wonder how in the world two people could work things out if they did not talk it out.

Here's the problem with having R talks with your W at this point. She continues to be in a state of waywardness. So, #1, you can't believe anything she says at the moment. You would have more success talking to someone else. #2, it is doubtful she will be make decisions based on reason and wisdom, while she is wayward. #3, how much are you talking.....and how little is she contributing to the discussion? Remember, this is your need, but it's not hers. #4, when she does contribute to the discussion, does it seem more complaining or blaming about you, rather than productively finding solutions?

The unfortunate fact that she isn't currently attracted to me does come up now and again, since it's one of the things we want to understand, but I wouldn't say we are continually talking about only that. Do you think this kind of talking is good for us at this stage, as long as I'm also focusing on my goals?

Personally, I do not think it is good, ATM. Once she is fully on board to do whatever is necessary to save the M, then having a professional to guide these discussions. I think you could probably google what makes a man attractive, and learn some basic laws of attraction. Your IC should be able to help you along these lines, at least until your W is truly working to save the M. Even getting women here to tell you what makes a man attractive...or not, could help.

I may be off track when I tell you what this looks like to me. In your attemps to save the M, you are putting emotional pressure on her. You do this by having too much relationship talk. It's as though you are walking behind her...with your hands on her back......pushing her, trying to force her to make steps forward. I understand, b/c I tend to be the same as you. However, as a former WW, I can see how this type of pushing the horse to the water trough, will not make the horse drink the water.

As much as you may be willing to bend over backward to save the M, you just cannot force her to do what she needs to do. In doing this, I am concerned other problems will arise, or the current ones will intensify.

So, what does a H do when he can't "talk" his way out of this mess? I believe it is time to stop these type of discussions until she goes through with complete transparency and is no longer addicted to the OM.

Instead of "talking", I think it is best to enforce personal and relationship boundaries.

In the letter, you are telling her to "show you". I get it, really. I am just not convinced she is going to show what you want as long as there are no consequences. Instead of having another discussion, decide what it will take to make you feel emotionally safe again. What can YOU do to protect yourself? If you have not read the link on boundaries, check it out.

[JGuy]

I may be off track when I tell you what this looks like to me. In your attempts to save the M, you are putting emotional pressure on her. You do this by having too much relationship talk. It's as though you are walking behind her...with your hands on her back......pushing her, trying to force her to make steps forward. I understand, b/c I tend to be the same as you. However, as a former WW, I can see how this type of pushing the horse to the water trough, will not make the horse drink the water.

As much as you may be willing to bend over backward to save the M, you just cannot force her to do what she needs to do. In doing this, I am concerned other problems will arise, or the current ones will intensify.

I think you are bang on, Sandi. Thank you again for the helpful advice. I think I may finally be ready to do my own 180 and stop the R talk and pursuing completely. I'll explain why with another update on what happened last night during our anniversary dinner.

[JGuy]

So, last night my W and I went out for dinner for our 8 year anniversary. For most of the night I held strong and didn't initiate any R talk. This left things rather blank and there was lots of awkward, sad silence. We both found ways to talk about other things.

I was having some sadness well up in me at one point. I contained it as to not create a scene, but this caused pain in my forehead. At one point, while she was talking, I rubbed my forehead while looking down, to sooth myself. To my surprise, she snapped at me angrily about how she hated it when I did that. She is almost never like this to me, and I was shocked. I felt really hurt, really alone, and I saw just how badly out of touch she is with me. I told her that I was just soothing some pain, but I wasn't ignoring what she was saying at all. I wanted her to keep talking, but she didn't. A few moments later, I couldn't hold back the tears and they came. It was just so sad to see how I was being so badly misunderstood, how badly we were missing each other. I didn't blame her, but just took care of my heart in that moment. She apologized. After I minute or two I came back from the sadness and started a different conversation.

Toward the end of the night, I slipped and went into some R talk that I thought might be helpful. I told her that I had thought about things, and realized that I must be putting too much emotional pressure on her. I asked her what she thought about the idea of just agreeing together not to decide anything for awhile, like say, 3 or 4 weeks. I would stop pressuring her, and we would both just hold a prayer in our hearts that would gain clarity and be guided to see what the best way forward is. After the 3 or 4 weeks we could check in and see where things are at.

She liked this idea, but she wasn't fully in. She told me that she has really been feeling like perhaps we need to admit that it's over. But that she is really scared, and not sure, afraid that she may be making a mistake. I told her that I too have been flipping back and forth, and I have my moments where I also feel like perhaps I need to admit that it may be best for us both to move on. But I too am uncertain. I reiterated that I think this may be exactly why it's a good idea for us to take space, sit with things for a few weeks, and agree not to decide anything. She persisted with her uncertainty and continued to hesitate to commit to this proposal.

During the drive home, we both felt like the writing was on the wall, that it's over. When we got home, she started to really freak out, crying uncontrollably and really beating herself up emotionally, blaming herself for everything, for ruining our marriage. She went to a really dark place where I could see that her self-hatred and fears were attacking her and getting the better of her. I supported her and reminded her that it's only her fears and they aren't real. That really, we are just learning some tough life lessons the hard way. I started to talk about how if we separate, how things could still be fine, that no matter what things will be OK and she shouldn't believe the drama and fears in her head. It was when I asked her to look me in the eyes that she really started to snap out of it. The next moment she was thanking me, we were hugging.

After that, what ensued was a very strange, 2 hour conversation into the wee hours of the morning, where we both stepped into the reality of facing that it really might be over. I found that I had a very strange courage, even excitement about it. I felt happy for the first time and saw how I really could accept if our M comes to an end. Strangely, I was much more OK about it that her. It felt like a huge shift, a huge weight was lifted off the M and we could finally just talk honestly like two friends, respectfully. I think that when I really let go and she saw how OK I really was with accepting whatever happens, it took the emotional pressure off her. At one point we were even laughing and joking about how funny it would be if suddenly we wanted to have "goodbye sex". The night was like being in a strange twilight zone. For the first time I can remember, she was the one who wanted to keep talking and I was the one who had to ask to end the conversation so I could get some sleep!

In the end, we ended up agreeing more or less to my original proposal, that we should take a few weeks to let things sit and just see how we both feel as we process things, work on ourselves, and gain clarity. She was in fact serious about being somewhat interested in the idea of having sex as an experiment which would either be a goodbye for old time's sake, or as a test to see what's there and what might be different when there are no longer strings attached, when we feel free and open like we now do in this strange twilight zone. However, she really wanted to take things slow and consider it as something to try over the next few weeks. I was obviously pretty excited about this idea, but reluctant to be pulled back in when I finally just started feeling empowered and free.

My intention is to use this opportunity to do my own 180 and really stop all R talk and pursuing. What a strange turn of events!

[Azzork]

It's weird to me to
1) set a deadline to make a decision.
And
2) push her to agree to wait to make this decision.

How do you think the next 3-4 weeks are going to go with this deadline hanging over the both of you?

[NYGal]

Maybe when you stop all R talk, you can just have fun? Go out to dinner with friends so there are no awkward silences? Maybe a good movie where you don't have to talk much?
We had that awkward silence dinner and it was awful.
I don't really know your situation, Jguy, but it sounds like there's lots of hope. Good luck to you!

[trumpet]

Sounds like you got a month.

Don't be trumpet, and ask about the R 2 days from now.
And don't ask after 30 days, at 7AM in the morning... that would also be a trumpet thing.

As Cadet says, you just got a huge gift. The gift of time. How are you going to use it?

I was at your point, JGuy, and then backtracked my M by feeling like I needed to express my feelings, and talk about the R with her yet again. The pressure put her in a very bad place, and the D might actually be moving forward.

The sex thing? That's like touching a hot stove. You're gonna get burned. You would think it's fantastic, but if she has no emotional connection with you, the act will come and go, and she'll realize it wasn't like it used to be, and think that might be the nail in the coffin. The mental aspect of sex to her is probably MIA right now. At least she wants you - that's awesome! Sexual attraction is very cool.

I printed out Sandi's rules, and highlighted the ones I'm always messing up on. I read the entire list every morning when I'm on the treadmill. Today was the first day in a while I did't log into her FB/email. I'm going to follow ALL the rules now, and see if I can save things.

You can do this, JGuy. Keep posting, and I'll keep posting. We're in so similar a sitch. If you think you can or you can't, you're right!