WW is onboard with trying to save the M

[JGuy]

Has it been explained to your WW how the affair is like an addictive drug and she will be very tempted to contact the OM?

Has it been explained to her that transparency is not just to earn your trust but it also helps her stick to her resolve not to contact OM.

Yes, Sandi, I told her about this. I read it in DR as well as other books. Multiple experts all say that it is normal for there to be withdrawal. I told her that it may be in her best interest to increase transparency (for example, by sharing her passwords with me) so as to give away the keys to her own escape route if she is serious about sticking to her resolve. She is still very uncomfortable with this and just can't bring herself to do it. She has a very deep habit of hiding maintaining a secret life, and it seems like it's just too much for her to give it all away at once. She is warmer to the idea of taking smaller, gradual steps toward eventual full transparency.

Without this, I am not very comfortable at all with trusting her right now, so unfortunately we are stuck on this. It doesn't feel right to me to ask for a separation solely on the basis of her unwillingness to give full transparency right now, but I'm not sure what other options I have, other than just reminding her again and again that I can't trust her and that is a problem if she wants to work on recovering the M. I can continue to snoop, but it just feels wrong. Unfortunately it's the only power I have in the situation and it's very tempting at times.

[Azzork]

It sounds like the two of you are doing a TON of talking.

How does continually discussing her lack of attraction towards you increase her attraction to you?

What are you doing that would be considered attractive?

[JGuy]

It sounds like the two of you are doing a TON of talking.

How does continually discussing her lack of attraction towards you increase her attraction to you?

Good question Azzork. It probably doesn't, but I think it may be good for other reasons. We are talking to explore the truth, find out what each other really wants, increasing our understanding of where things went wrong with the M to get better clarity and make better decisions about how to move forward, what to work on individually, etc. We want to make decisions based on reason and wisdom instead of emotion and fears. We are aligned on these goals and our talking is from this intention. I have been careful not to come across as needy while talking, by often saying that I will honor whatever truth is revealed during this process and I'm ready to let her go if it becomes clear that this is the best choice for one or both of us. The unfortunate fact that she isn't currently attracted to me does come up now and again, since it's one of the things we want to understand, but I wouldn't say we are continually talking about only that. Do you think this kind of talking is good for us at this stage, as long as I'm also focusing on my goals?

What are you doing that would be considered attractive?

Right. Well, here's what I'm trying to do so far:
- Getting more in touch with myself emotionally, and with my ability to empathize with myself and others. The IC helped me see that this is one of my main issues that I need to heal which gets in the way of emotional intimacy between me and everyone, including my W.
- Dealing with my inner child needs myself instead of hoping for these needs to be met by my W. This is mostly taking the form of meditation, self-nurturing activities, etc.
- Stopping my codependent behaviors. The main one I'm aware of is that I don't trust my W will see things clearly and make wise decisions herself, so I get drawn into trying to explain, teach, point out important observations etc. I'm still having a hard time with this, but I am definitely getting better.
- Getting in touch with my anger (alone), stopping the habit of abandoning myself by suppressing anger in order to keep the peace in the M. Behaving more like a strong and self-respecting man who can kindly state my needs to her and respectfully refuse to be a doormat. (This one is tricky because initially it seems to push away my W)
- Dressing and grooming well always, even at home.
- Continuing to be a good father, putting our son first, making sure he has a great Christmas, etc.
- Getting out with other friends, improving my other sources for emotional support and happiness, etc.

[trumpet]

My W has said that she is maintaining NC. I have been more on edge and have continued to tell her that I can't really trust her as long as she isn't comfortable with the idea of letting me access her communications. We have had a series of very honest and raw conversations about where we are really at and the decisions that lie ahead. I have repeatedly made it clear that I will accept her choice between me and the OM, but that I won't be with her if she continues contacting the OM. She continues to feel like her heart is with him, and she really doesn't feel anything romantic or sexual for me. However, she is very scared to lose me and the M, our home, our family, etc. She feels pretty certain that she just can't give me what I need in a W, and doubts that she would ever be able to. Our counselor has pointed out to her (as have I) that affairs, dishonesty, and childhood issues could all be reasons why she feels no attraction to me right now. If she is willing to work at it, it is possible that the attraction could come back. Although she doesn't say it, I can tell she is really doubtful about this.

JGuy - I'm at the EXACT same spot as you. Just posted on my thread very much the same things. Can't give up her passwords, does not want to be transparent, but has been good with NC except OM sent pictures to her. She says she didn't tell me to protect me, and instead it has the opposite effect. She has her own checking, and bought most of the kids gifts through her own checking, and she thought I'd be elated that she did that - instead, I was pissed, as I've kept a family budget for the last 2 years, and have no clue how much she spent or on what until the kids opened the gifts Christmas morning - she shipped and wrapped the gifts at her office.

I keep coming back, like you, to GAL, doing 180's, and focusing on myself. She keeps dropping little breadcrumbs that she wants to do things with me, go out to eat as a family, but when I want to explore the family dynamic, it's a no-go... she's just too uncomfortable, doesn't want to talk, isn't attracted to me at all, is still in love with OM, and realizes the fantasy she's producing in her mind can't ever come true, but continues to hold completely unrealistic hope.

Like Sandi says, a wayward wife is just NUTS, and she has to burn through the crazy before any traction can happen in the relationship.

[Azzork]

It sounds like the two of you are doing a TON of talking.

How does continually discussing her lack of attraction towards you increase her attraction to you?

We are talking to explore the truth, find out what each other really wants, increasing our understanding of where things went wrong with the M to get better clarity and make better decisions about how to move forward, what to work on individually, etc.

I understand that this may make you feel better.

But does it get you closer to your goals?

[JGuy]

We are talking to explore the truth, find out what each other really wants, increasing our understanding of where things went wrong with the M to get better clarity and make better decisions about how to move forward, what to work on individually, etc.

I understand that this may make you feel better.

But does it get you closer to your goals?

I think so, but I'm unsure about whether I'm doing things in the best order. Maybe I'm jumping the gun? Getting clarity on what went wrong with the M through conversations with my W gives me clues about my own contributions to what went wrong, and helps me to see what I can do (or stop doing) that might help to increase my attractiveness (or decrease my unattractiveness).

Honestly though, I'm still not 100% sure that I want to save the M myself. I definitely have a hard time bearing the thought of splitting up my family and not having my W in my life anymore, but through these honest conversations with her and reflecting myself, I'm coming to see more clearly how unfulfilled I have been... she has been totally absent from the M, behaving like a single person in terms of her priorities and time commitments. I was tolerating this for a long time and I accepted and tried my best to love her as she is, assuming it had something to do with her childhood etc. Nobody is perfect, neither am I, and love must provide the bridge. However, now that I know she was busy engaging in affairs all that time and being dishonest with me, it changes the game and I'm no longer comfortable tolerating the overall behavior anymore. I'm getting stronger as I slowly detach and this is making me feel strongly that I need someone who actually values me.

So, these conversations also serve my goal of gaining certainty about whether or not I really want to continue. I feel like I am finally waking up from a long denial where I have been too scared to admit the reality of the kind of person she is and just how badly unfulfilled I am. I am having frequent moments recently where i feel like the writing on the wall is clearly saying that she isn't right for me and I should have seen it all along. I understand that it takes a ton of patience, however, and I don't want to give up prematurely or make decisions when these feelings seem to flip back and forth inconsistently. I want to know that I am giving it the best possible chance. It's all very confusing and uncertain!

[JGuy]

Like Sandi says, a wayward wife is just NUTS, and she has to burn through the crazy before any traction can happen in the relationship.

Thanks for this reminder, trumpet. I suppose it answers what I just wrote in my previous post. I have to outlast her crazy wayward mindset. I remember Sandi saying that I should wait at least a month after her NC with the OM. Does that sound about right? Gosh... I am just so impatient and I just can't resist wanting to make decisions now.

[JGuy]

BTW, she "accidentally" broke NC yesterday but came to me honestly about it right away. She said she was in a parking lot at the local grocery store when the OM saw her and came over to say hello. She said that she kept the 20 minute conversation dry and limited to how are you doing, etc. but nothing romantic. She said it felt very different, like it was over with him.

I thanked her for her honesty, which is an improvement. However, 20 minutes is long and indicates that she isn't really committed to NC completely. I'm also not sure if she's telling the 100% truth about her feelings during the encounter or is just watering it down.

[Azzork]

We are talking to explore the truth, find out what each other really wants, increasing our understanding of where things went wrong with the M to get better clarity and make better decisions about how to move forward, what to work on individually, etc.

I understand that this may make you feel better.

But does it get you closer to your goals?

I think so, but I'm unsure about whether I'm doing things in the best order. Maybe I'm jumping the gun? Getting clarity on what went wrong with the M through conversations with my W gives me clues about my own contributions to what went wrong, and helps me to see what I can do (or stop doing) that might help to increase my attractiveness (or decrease my unattractiveness).

I think to a point, there is some benefit to reflective conversation with W. I'm not sure that continually rehashing and discussing the failures in the M by yourselves is a healthy way forward though. I don't know what's best, but in my opinion, you will learn and share much more through actions than you ever can through words.

How much more is there to "learn" here that you won't see through living your lives?

[Azzork]

BTW, she "accidentally" broke NC yesterday but came to me honestly about it right away. She said she was in a parking lot at the local grocery store when the OM saw her and came over to say hello. She said that she kept the 20 minute conversation dry and limited to how are you doing, etc. but nothing romantic. She said it felt very different, like it was over with him.

I thanked her for her honesty, which is an improvement. However, 20 minutes is long and indicates that she isn't really committed to NC completely. I'm also not sure if she's telling the 100% truth about her feelings during the encounter or is just watering it down.

Like this.....

Look at what she says: "there was a dry conversation. She's not interested in OM anymore anyway."

Look at what she does: has a 20 minute conversation with OM in a grocery store parking lot.

How many times have you encountered an acquaintance in a grocery store parking lot? And now she's accidentally meeting a very particular person there?!

Actions. Not words.