Adventures of PP, Woofie, and the WAW (10)

[Vanilla]

Wonderful fun this Xmas

Big bone for woofie

V

[PigPen]

Hi DB Family,

Thank you all so much for the Xmas wishes, I hope your day was peaceful and joy could be found despite where ever you currently are in your sitch. I know this was a tough day for a lot of us and I sent everyone a prayer when I first woke up.

This board was a such a lifesaver for me and everyone on it holds a place in my heart. Truly I have no idea how our spouses don't realize the quality of the people that are fighting for their M's.

Blessings to everyone, I'll post an update shortly.

PP

[PigPen]

PigPen's Christmas Story.

After calling my family and talking with them a bit, I decided to give my STXW a call back. I had told her I would return her call when I was feeling better and I was. She didn't pick up but called me back about an hour later.

We talked for the next two and a half hours.

I'll try to stick to the DB points as they are what's relevant, and am using this a bit as a brain dump too. I wanted to come on last night while it was all fresh in my head, but had plans with my neighbors. Here is my food for thought from the conversation:

1) WAW said, "I'm not sure what happened but one day a week or so ago I woke up and had the feeling that you had moved on. That you weren't going to try to convince me that we should get back together so I felt comfortable calling and reaching out to you."

Interesting how many vets say this exact thing happens when you really drop the rope. I don't think I particularly dropped it harder on the day she felt it, but it's been pretty dropped lately.

2) At one point she told me we are "still married and raising a child together (referring to Woofie)" but then also told me she tells her friends that she still talks with her "ex husband"

3) We did end up having some relationship conversations, initiated by her. They didn't really go anywhere, and I validated as best as I could, she did the same saying she wished she'd known how I really felt at times. On one occasion when I did completely disagree with her I said, "I'd like to challenge that belief and present you with what my motivation was for saying XYZ." I then told her how I was feeling at the time and why I said what I said. Did it change her mind? Not at all. But in this case, I wanted to be heard.

I know it's not strict DB, and it was because I felt like I was being misjudged over and over in a theme that wasn't true. My WAW believed that any time I had a disagreement with her that I was preventing her from being who she really wanted to be. This is not true, although it was how she experienced me.

Oddly enough, we both agreed that rehashing the past wasn't of value since we were both trying to protect our own subjective experience. It was an oddly emotionally intelligent conversation for two people in the midst of a D and we both also acknowledged how unique it was that we had calmer more respectful conversations now than when we were M.

My take away from it was that my STXW has a lens that she sees my actions through. Even if my actions have other intentions they can still be seen as fitting the particular pattern she believes they do. I do the same with her.

She viewed most of the negative actions I did from having substance issues, to arguing over how best to raise Woofie as my need to keep her from becoming who she was meant to be. I viewed most of the challenges she presented me as reasons that she would eventually leave me. Unfortunately we didn't have the skill or awareness to counter this when we were together.

Another point that I made was that I thought it should be taken into consideration that even though I had challenges and lacked real relationship skill, I was also under an inordinate amount of stress. I was running three start up businesses at one point in our M, working 7 days a week for months, broke, and also doing all of that with a thriving addiction.

My WAW rightly told me that no matter what was going on in my outside life I chose to show up in unskillful ways. That I could have made different choices but didn't. That no one made me take the frustrations of my life out on my M, or deal with them by upping my substance use.

I agreed with her on that and was actually thankful that she called me out on it. I don't want my life circumstances to dictate my reactions ever again. I'm not saying I plan on trying to be perfect, but if my outside circumstances are making me act like an a-hole then I need to change them, or ask for help. Felt good to say, "You know what, you're right, at the end of the day, I'm 100% responsible for how I show up in a relationship."

4) STXW told me that the reason she never pursued reconciliation with us was because doing so would have prevented each of us from fully becoming the person that we are today. That I wouldn't have left my job and started my new path, and she wouldn't have developed as much as she has. I know, believe nothing, but I agree with her that it wasn't until I knew in my heart that she was gone that I decided to change the course of my life drastically.

5) At no point did she mention D, the attorney, the fact that technically we should have had a meeting already and haven't.

6) I did tell her what I want out of my next relationship - friendship, adventure, support, connection, someone who gives me a feeling that it's safe to F up, and a woman who believes she was the luckiest woman in the world to be with me. My WAW told me that I would have it. I didn't tell her that part of me hopes that it's her. Truly at this point I want the woman I'm with to have those qualities more so than to have my WAW back.

7) Lastly, and this is something I'm going to take to heart and keep working on - my WAW said that she did not feel safe in our M. Emotionally unsafe because when she came to me with issues I wouldn't address them. It pains me to remember but I would say, "I don't have time for your chit right now, I have businesses to run." Ouch. This is true. Not all the time, but often I also didn't trust that her concerns weren't just ploys for her to have an out to leave me. NMMNG shown the light on that one, I was codependent as hell in my M.

She also told me that she didn't feel safe physically and that was a shock to me. There was no violence in our M, but she said she felt like I was holding a tremendous amount of anger down with my substance use and that at some point it would boil over and I would explode. I own guns and have been professionally trained with them so she said she was scared of me at times. I consider myself a peaceful person, don't yell (unless I'm driving and late...but nobody's perfect) but don't think she was making this up.

That's completely unacceptable to me on my own part and know now to really work on speaking my feelings upfront so they don't turn inward and fester. I also need to be the kind of man that makes his partner feel like she is safe in all areas of her life. Time to re read NMMNG.

-------

All in all it was the same mix of beautiful connection and heartbreak that all of our talks are. I see so many areas where I acted poorly in our M, and so many areas that she could have handled better too. I wonder if we really were a bad match for each other or if who we were at the time wasn't right.

Neither of us made the other better and we each work in the "making people better" business. That's telling to me and can't be denied, I just want to know why that was the case.

The woman I spoke to on the phone yesterday was the woman I fell in love with years ago only significantly more confident and wise. What an incredible turn on. She's become the woman she's always wanted to be, but only after leaving me.

She told me she was in shock to hear the ways that I now talk and how I handle difficulty, and that she used to get glimpses of who I am now but they would disappear. I've become the man I've always wanted to be but it took her leaving me to get here. What a shame, but yet, how amazing at the same time since it would have been more of a shame had the growth never come to light for either of us.

From a DB standpoint - I'm 99% sure I'm still getting D, and that my STXW still loves me but has no plans to reestablish anything other than a friendship. This call was a positive on a number of levels too. She got to say things I believe she's needed to say for a long time and I validated them. I too got to say things that I needed to be heard on and said them in a way that wasn't blaming. I also took responsibility for my own actions in our M.

Today I have a slight hangover from the call. As always, the day after I feel a bit of emptiness after we connect so deeply. I miss her and miss having her in my life. I did tell her, and I mean this, that I'd rather have the limited, yet deep connection we have now and not have her physically in my life than to have it the other way around.

We both said, "I love you." and left it at that.

That's my Xmas Story fellow DB'ers.

I'm open if anyone has a thought or two on what I can do next to try to save my M....or if following my new path, doing my adventure next year, and living happily is still the best version of DB'ing at this point.

Love you all,

PP

[Fogg]

Just read your reply to my sitch, funny, I was going to make the same comment about yours moving along so much in 1 day. 2.5 hours is a very long talk, many wouldn't be able to DB through that. I think theirs many positives in there PP. You DB'ed her and things are catching up where shes noticing your changes. Theres still work for you to do to better yourself, its a lifelong process, but its nice some of it is acknowledged. I think she still needs to work on her issues and that may be the delay in her wanting more right now. I think we both know the patience involved in this is beyond what we could ever imagine. I think its also very important to listen to them but be doubtful and try to see what they are really saying. Whats not said can also be just as important as whats said. Shes not mentioning the D so its possible shes holding back, best to leave that pressure off her. I can say I didn't do the same and its a year later and W still hasn't filed anything. The times I did put pressure on her in some other way were the times she tried to get the paperwork ready to file.

I will say its obvious she loves you, but we know these WAW's situations are not about love, they're about happiness and giving up on the M ever being able to work. I feel the same about my W at times, I think she does love me but wont admit it out loud and just wants the friendship. The A and her pride/stubbornness might play a role in that also.

As for her not believing the M can work anymore, shes basically said as much. I think shes said she sees a possibility of you two coming back together in the future but doesn't want it to effect the change that's happening for both of you right now. I think that shows me shes processing things and is very hesitant about going back to the old M, but that she hasn't given up on it completely. Its almost as if shes seeing how it plays out to be sure shes not going back to the old M.

You making these changes and being able to interact with her, where you are able to admit your faults and not react the same as the old PP is directly challenging her belief the M cant work. But again, shes guarded its real so she stays back some.

Its what we hear when we first get here, real change is the only way back. The old M is dead and there is no going back to it. Keep going down this path PP. Time will show if she can take that leap to it being real or if you two go your separate ways. Either way its win-win, just enjoy life as your going down it.

I would suggest a DB coach also if you don't have one, I know its expensive but they do help quite a but with adjusting the mind to be able to deal with how long this could possible take.

[Elly4]

PP, thanks for sharing your day with us. I would agree with Fogg that the path you are on is the right one. Remember that DBing isn't necessarily getting your M back, but getting yourself back. You learned some things in your conversation and you made sure to stay present, acknowledge her feelings, and yet stay honest to yourself. Keep on the path of finding the best PP out there. You are doing great, as I'm sure Woofie would tell you!

***hugs***

E

[mahhhty]

That is a great XMas Story.

I would continue to think it through. However, don't formulate any expectations based off this one conversation. You never know what the real motivation is/was. A moment of weakness, possible lonely, etc.

Just be careful.

[mutatio]

Not bad PP, not bad. She likes you, that's important. All you can do is grow and share when she's interested. I think it is important not to push, offer kind compassionate dialog whenever she is open to it. Be well

[PigPen]

Just read your reply to my sitch, funny, I was going to make the same comment about yours moving along so much in 1 day. 2.5 hours is a very long talk, many wouldn't be able to DB through that. I think theirs many positives in there PP. You DB'ed her and things are catching up where shes noticing your changes. Theres still work for you to do to better yourself, its a lifelong process, but its nice some of it is acknowledged. I think she still needs to work on her issues and that may be the delay in her wanting more right now. I think we both know the patience involved in this is beyond what we could ever imagine. I think its also very important to listen to them but be doubtful and try to see what they are really saying. Whats not said can also be just as important as whats said. Shes not mentioning the D so its possible shes holding back, best to leave that pressure off her. I can say I didn't do the same and its a year later and W still hasn't filed anything. The times I did put pressure on her in some other way were the times she tried to get the paperwork ready to file.

I will say its obvious she loves you, but we know these WAW's situations are not about love, they're about happiness and giving up on the M ever being able to work. I feel the same about my W at times, I think she does love me but wont admit it out loud and just wants the friendship. The A and her pride/stubbornness might play a role in that also.

As for her not believing the M can work anymore, shes basically said as much. I think shes said she sees a possibility of you two coming back together in the future but doesn't want it to effect the change that's happening for both of you right now. I think that shows me shes processing things and is very hesitant about going back to the old M, but that she hasn't given up on it completely. Its almost as if shes seeing how it plays out to be sure shes not going back to the old M.

You making these changes and being able to interact with her, where you are able to admit your faults and not react the same as the old PP is directly challenging her belief the M cant work. But again, shes guarded its real so she stays back some.

Its what we hear when we first get here, real change is the only way back. The old M is dead and there is no going back to it. Keep going down this path PP. Time will show if she can take that leap to it being real or if you two go your separate ways. Either way its win-win, just enjoy life as your going down it.

I would suggest a DB coach also if you don't have one, I know its expensive but they do help quite a but with adjusting the mind to be able to deal with how long this could possible take.

Thanks Fogg, this is really solid advice. I had a DB coach for a while, but stopped talking to him when the conversations became more on what I needed to do for myself moving forward. I know what I need to do for me and I'm doing it. I've got an entire year of travel and growth planned, as well as a business that I'm building from that year.

I agree that my WAW is sticking to her story, and her story is her perspective and not necessarily the truth - or to be fair, it's not my version of the story. She's had a few catch phrases about our relationship that she's used since she left that lets me know she hasn't really looked into the depth of the issues. I don't believe you can sum up a relationship with a catchphrase. I also know what I believed when she left is not what I believe now after DB'ing, therapy, sobriety and more.

You're right, there are positives and you're right, she's still hesitant. She let me know she's still guarded in our Woofie swaps, and I'm not sure why given that she seems so bent on D. What's to be guarded about then? The swaps have been pleasant and polite and loving. I do sense a hesitation that she feels she's going to get pulled back into the M, that may be mind reading, but it's what I feel given some of the responses she's had.

I've been thinking more and more that people split up for so many complex reasons. One of them is if one partner acts in a certain way and that way is always interpreted as negative. If I buy flowers but that's seen as covering up for a wrong, when the intention is purely out of love, that's not going to work out.

There were incidences like that in my M and I remember telling my W that it's not a good sign when gestures of love, and respect are viewed to the contrary.

I appreciate you taking the time to stop by here, I know you're still deep in it too.

Patience. Patience. And then some more patience.

PP

[PigPen]

PP, thanks for sharing your day with us. I would agree with Fogg that the path you are on is the right one. Remember that DBing isn't necessarily getting your M back, but getting yourself back. You learned some things in your conversation and you made sure to stay present, acknowledge her feelings, and yet stay honest to yourself. Keep on the path of finding the best PP out there. You are doing great, as I'm sure Woofie would tell you!

***hugs***

E

Thank you very much E, it was a great reminder to read "DB'ing is about getting ourselves back." I hear you on that completely. I am back and better than I've ever been in my life and in the deepest part of my stomach believe that if I lose my W forever but am still where I am now, it was worth it. I could not have gone on living the way I was in my M and she and I couldn't figure out a way to get ourselves there together. As I said, it's tragic but then again, so is life.

Appreciate the hug.

PP

[PigPen]

That is a great XMas Story.

I would continue to think it through. However, don't formulate any expectations based off this one conversation. You never know what the real motivation is/was. A moment of weakness, possible lonely, etc.

Just be careful.

Thanks Mahhhty, I have no expectations. I'm still getting D'ed as far as I know. My WAW talked a lot about the big decision we have to make is whether we want to be friends or not, and that's fine. I'm at peace with my situation. Whenever I start to have conversations with my in my head negating what she said that I don't believe is true, I can stop myself and say, "It doesn't really matter why she's gone, she's gone." And that helps.

It stops the gears from grinding all day trying to find the perfect sentence that would get her to believe that things weren't as bad as she thought they were and that if we both put our best efforts out that we could be an amazing couple. We did put our best efforts out years ago and we were an amazing couple, but with some hugely broken pieces. Now those pieces are put back together and that's a grace.

Cheers,

PP