WW is onboard with trying to save the M

[JGuy]

She assured me that their contact wasn't romantic anymore and she was just trying to keep the friendship.

Im a little confused. What was the result of this?

Friendship?! Is that relationship worth ruining her marriage over...?

I think she's deluding herself by thinking she can somehow hang on to the OM but have it instantly change into a friendship. She'll need to decide if it's worth ruining our M over this, because I made very clear that by continuing to contact him (and especially trying to hide it) she is ruining any chance we have by continuing to place a wedge between us, during this small window of opportunity that currently have to mend things.

My perception is that she is flipping back and forth, confused, can't decide what she wants. Doesn't want to lose him but doesn't want to lose me either. She's behaving like a rebellious, selfish child, not willing to face the responsibility of making a decision that lies in front of her. In that state, she is incapable of respecting others. When I set limits, she gets huffy like a child, and I can see that she is in a very selfish place, unable to fathom what it takes to grow up and respect herself, the OM, and me by taking control of her own choices and having some integrity and being a person who is worthy of trust. She has her moments where a big part of her does see that she needs to grow up and deal with this situation like an adult. She flips between the selfishness and complete self-hate. I can see that she really needs help. Whether or not we end up saving the M, I am concerned for her.

I like what indigo1 said about it being time for me to earn back some respect. Most importantly, respecting myself. She has lost my trust completely. I'm taking the day to think about it, but I am tentatively planning to go through with requesting access to her communications. Not just her phone but email, FB passwords, everything. If she decides not to comply with this, then I would have to face the difficult moment of telling her that I can't see how there's any way for me to keep my heart open and continue working on the M with her.

I have been going through these motions in my mind and imagining how I would tell her that I want a separation if it really does come to this. I would want to tell her in a way that is self loving, respectful to her, and not dramatic. I would want to tell her in a way that isn't sudden and final, but takes gradual steps over the course of several weeks. I would want it to be a wake up call to her so that she realizes without a doubt that I'm serious and that she is going to lose me. Knowing her and the childish place she's stuck at, I think she might very well wake up quickly and may be very likely to come around when she realizes that our M and our family is truly at stake.

Given that I have been hoping that we can save the M, I imagine it will be extremely difficult for me to go through with it if it comes to this. I have today to think about how I will communicate with her later today when I see her, and how I will negotiate giving her another chance if she truly wants it. I welcome everyone's advice and varying perspectives on how I can handle this very important day for the future of my M.

[JGuy]

One more piece of context I forgot to mention... before my W left for work this morning, she said that after our talk last night she texted the OM to let him know that it was a mistake that she chose to stay in contact with him at all. She apologized for the mess but told him she couldn't be in touch anymore. She said that he apologized too and agreed it was probably a bad idea to stay in touch. As she told me this, she was visibly distant and cold toward me. Huffy... as though she was angry at me for being the reason why she was losing him.

It seems really immature and self-centered the way that she gets huffy and angry at me for a choice that she is free to make. In the face of me setting a limit to what I can endure, she just goes straight to feeling like I am controlling her. It's as though she can't fathom that I have a right to set limits so that I'm not completely trampled by her reckless behavior and choices.

Anyhow, when she got huffy I didn't react, but told her that if she wanted another chance, there was more we needed to talk about. She said we could talk later this afternoon when she gets home.

I'd like to get really clear about my intentions today. I want to handle this crossroads the best way I possibly can...

[Azzork]

When I set limits, she gets huffy like a child, and I can see that she is in a very selfish place, unable to fathom what it takes to grow up and respect herself, the OM, and me by taking control of her own choices and having some integrity and being a person who is worthy of trust.

It's as though she can't fathom that I have a right to set limits so that I'm not completely trampled by her reckless behavior and choices.

Im not sure thinking about this as "setting limits" is a healthy term. You dont want to be thinking about this as restricting her ability to make choices. Instead, youre intent is protect yourself.

It's not: "You cant contact OM or else Im leaving."
It's: "I wont be with you while youre contacting OM."

This choice is hers to make, not yours. So when you make that choice for her, its not surprising that she gets "huffy".

[trumpet]

JGuy,

My wife let me know she was angry at me for telling her I wouldn't be in an open marriage, and was angry when she broke off the contact with the OM. So far, it's stuck, but she was immature in how she told me she ended it - I at first was upset on HOW she ended it, and now, looking back, I needed to celebrate her anger, as it was difficult for her, and was angry I made her make a choice. If it was easy, it probably meant it didn't stick, and she would still be contacting OM.

[JGuy]

I'm not sure thinking about this as "setting limits" is a healthy term. You don't want to be thinking about this as restricting her ability to make choices. Instead, you're intent is protect yourself.

It's not: "You can't contact OM or else I'm leaving."
It's: "I wont be with you while you're contacting OM."

This choice is hers to make, not yours. So when you make that choice for her, it's not surprising that she gets "huffy".

I get it. In our talk last night, I definitely didn't present this with the intention of making the choice for her. I explicitly told her more than once that she is free to choose where she wants to go from here. She can continue pursuing the R with the OM if that's what she chooses. If she does, then to protect myself I will start taking steps to get a separation.

The truth, of course, is that I am nowhere near neutral and I do really hope that she chooses to end it once and for all with the OM. Even so, I think I'm doing a good job of letting go and not trying to manipulate or control her choice by using the threat of separation, but it seems like the rut of feeling controlled and manipulated is very deep in her psyche. That was one of the main patterns with how her mother always mistreated her. She seems to always react in that way and see my boundaries as controlling, even when I try to communicate in the detached way that Azzork suggests. Maybe I can do better... I don't know. The negative imprint of feeling manipulated seems to be so strong in her, that tragically, it is like a self-fulfilling prophecy and as long as she's engaged in that story, the only thing I can do is back away from the R.

Because I can see this pattern (and the MC has also called her on it) it is very tempting to try and point it out to her in the moment it is happening, in hopes that she will realize and snap out of it. However, I'm trying to avoid pursuing/fixing, and am worried that doing so will backfire. Therefore, I am left sitting on all these tragic feelings, seeing our R falling apart, feeling like I can see what will help, but having to remain hands off and let her learn on her own, even if that means our M fails. This is very difficult for me, given how badly I want to save our M!

[TxHubby]

Honestly as long as you're seen as a guarantee in her life then she has zero incentive to care what you think about any of this. Detaching and starting GAL activities is part of you moving on. There are two possible outcomes of that. One, that scares the sh*t out of her that she is going to lose you, she snaps out of this sh*tty behavior of hers and you two rebuild the marriage together in love. The second outcome is that she goes the other way and ends up alone or with some douche bag. I call that person a douche bag because only a douche bag would carry on with a married woman.

The second option won't kill you because as part of your own 180 you detached and got new things going in your life. Women never respect men that act weak. Never.

[JGuy]

My W was in a real funk all day yesterday, didn't really want to talk about anything. In the evening she came by and ask if I wanted to talk. She admitted that she was grieving the loss of the OM. I acknowledged that it would be hard, and I reminded her that she is free to choose either him or me, but that she can't have both of us. We both agreed that when she is still contacting the OM and hiding it, it seriously undermines our chances of saving our M. She could clearly see this, and agreed that our M really deserves a fighting chance. She wants to try again to really see if things can start to improve once she isn't in contact anymore. As usual, it was nice to see her sincerely apologizing and admitting her confusion. She feels terrible about herself for flipping back and forth and failing to make a decision and commit to it.

When it was my turn to talk, I shared just how much harder it is for me to trust her now since she continued to lie about NC with the OM. I told her that I would really need her to step up and convince me somehow that I can really believe her if I am to give her yet another chance. I suggested that she could give me access to all her communications as a way of showing her commitment to honesty. She didn't like how this idea seemed so controlling and pedantic. To that, I asked if she had a better idea, which she didn't. She said she would think about it.

Today, we talked about it again. I clarified that I really didn't want it to sound like a demand, but more of an invitation to help me so that I can make it possible to consider giving her another chance. I pointed out that if she gave me her passwords reluctantly and out of a feeling that she had to because I was demanding it, that it would indicate that she had missed the point. If she does it, it needs to be out of an understanding that comes from putting herself in my shoes. This clarification seemed to help shift her thinking about it, but she still wanted to consider it more.

Several weeks ago after the BD, she admitted to me that she has a real problem with wanting to escape reality and dwell in the comfort of fantasy, which is exactly what drew her into the affairs. Today I asked her if this tendency to dwell in fantasy may also be interfering with her ability to see the reality of our situation and what it is going to demand of us both if we are serious about working on the M. She admitted that it's true, she probably is avoiding reality because it's so overwhelming right now, and she could see how when she abandons reality, she also abandons me. I reiterated that I really need her to hear me out, and see the reality I am in, which was created by her choice to continue being dishonest.

As usual, it sunk in and she showed a lot of remorse, but it just went straight into self hatred and wanting to give up because she feels so incapable of fixing things. As usual, I ended up trying to encourage her not to give up, telling her to focus on setting goals and taking small steps. I gave her my assurance that I would be her companion each step of the way, if she was really willing to begin doing the hard work.

This conversation brought us closer and she gave me a very sincere hug and looked in my eyes before she left for work. It felt good, but I am feeling pretty exhausted by all these ups and downs, uncertain about how long of a leash to give her. Part of me wants to shorten the leash and be really tough on her. If I insist that I need access to her communications if I'm going to risk giving her another chance, I'm concerned that this may come across as demanding. However, if I don't, then I am being a doormat. I also wonder if perhaps I have already let it go too far and I need to wake up and see the reality of her behavior for what it is. Because of how easily she gives up when she feels overwhelmed, I'm worried that if I go dark, then it may only create more distance and hurt our chances. There's lots of uncertainty in the world of JGuy right now.

For now, I'm just going to try and stay focused on working through my own feelings alone, taking care of myself, detaching, etc. I can see that I truly do have to let go and allow things to happen without me trying to micro manage it all. I have had glimpses of a very free and open feeling when I think about really letting go, but it's elusive, and I still have a strong urge to control the outcome. I think it's gradually becoming less, though. So, I should probably celebrate that as progress. The more I gradually detach, the more clarity I have about our situation. The more clarity, the better my own decisions are. So, that's where I'll focus.

[Cristy]

Hello JGuy,

I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.

You are so smart to recognize that you can't believe 100% of what she says and 50% of what she does. Is she pursuing the relationship talk or are you?

You are at a very fragile point in this relationship and it would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. Please call me to discuss our DB coaching program at 303-444-7004.

[sandi2]

Has it been explained to your WW how the affair is like an addictive drug and she will be very tempted to contact the OM?

Has it been explained to her that transparency is not just to earn your trust but it also helps her stick to her resolve not to contact OM.

[JGuy]

Update: My father and step-mother are visiting for the holidays. I am very close to them and very glad to have their support. They have been helping me tremendously. They are wise people and have also be kind and supportive to my W, and want us both to have clarity and strength to make the right decision. I am lucky to have awesome parents who are like this!

My W has said that she is maintaining NC. I have been more on edge and have continued to tell her that I can't really trust her as long as she isn't comfortable with the idea of letting me access her communications. We have had a series of very honest and raw conversations about where we are really at and the decisions that lie ahead. I have repeatedly made it clear that I will accept her choice between me and the OM, but that I won't be with her if she continues contacting the OM. She continues to feel like her heart is with him, and she really doesn't feel anything romantic or sexual for me. However, she is very scared to lose me and the M, our home, our family, etc. She feels pretty certain that she just can't give me what I need in a W, and doubts that she would ever be able to. Our counselor has pointed out to her (as have I) that affairs, dishonesty, and childhood issues could all be reasons why she feels no attraction to me right now. If she is willing to work at it, it is possible that the attraction could come back. Although she doesn't say it, I can tell she is really doubtful about this.

My parents are staying in the guest room and so my W and I have been in the same bed again during their stay. We have negotiated a comfort zone of getting somewhat close with cuddling, but nothing sexual. She really likes it, and enjoys the closeness that she really missed while we were in separate bedrooms. However, I am finding it quite difficult to be that close because I inevitably feel attracted to her while she doesn't feel attracted to me. She is ambiguous about her intentions and sometimes I drift into denial, hoping unrealistically that I might be able to drift from platonic cuddling into more sensual cuddling. I know in my mind that it's totally unrealistic to expect her to reciprocate at this stage, but find it very hard to contain the feelings in my heart.

Today, my W and I had a conversation in which she reiterated just how uncertain she is about the chemistry between us and whether we are really right for each other at all. She agrees that she does have childhood issues that block intimacy with me and cause it to leak outside the M, but she also thinks that I just may be the wrong match for her.

I have also been having good talks with my father that are helping me to find my strength and shift more into detachment. I am realizing how I have betrayed myself throughout the entire M by suppressing my own anger in order to protect the M. There is a lot of co-dependency and I'm having moments of certainty that my W may in fact be correct that we are not a good match for each other. I'm starting to think that we might just need a lot of space from each other, maybe even a trial separation. I am finding it very difficult to detach and GAL while we are still living together in the same house. I feel like I need to really go through the grief process of "losing" her so that I can break my own deep unconscious habits of abandoning myself in order to try and hold on to her.

I spoke with her this afternoon and we discussed whether or not it's really a good idea that we are sleeping in the same bed when she only wants platonic cuddling, but I want more. I would rather keep some dignity and only be close to her when the feelings are reciprocal. So, if necessary, one of us could use a camping mattress on the floor while my parents are in the guest BR.

I am having moments recently where I see more clearly how the advice from all of you DBers might be exactly what I need to do. Take space from her so that I can recover myself, find my bearings, break the co-dependency, GAL, etc. It really does mean that I must let go of trying to influence her thinking, and that has been hard for me. We have talked a lot about the M up until now, but I feel like too much of my energy has been going into that, and it keeps hitting a dead end given that she just isn't attracted to me at all right now.

In summary, it feels like we are inching closer to separation, and it is mutual. We are also both feeling very scared about actually taking that step because it is a big deal to split the family and neither of us want to lose all that we have built together. I wonder if it is possible to put a pause on talking about the M while we just focus on working on ourselves for awhile. Is there any way to achieve the same effect as a separation while still living in the same house?? Or is this unrealistic? We have both agreed this would be a good idea, but both of us have a very hard time actually doing it.