New or false hope?

[tl2]

I just could not keep from commenting

First, don't be too hard on yourself. No one convo is a deal-breaker. This is not a smooth process.

Having said that...do you want to be married to your H, or do you want to win an argument? What is the best 180 you can do here?

Your 3 points that you are concerned about are very important and I think it makes good sense to make those a part of any possible recovery. And standing up for yourself and calling attention to serious questions you have about how he's treating you and various issues is definitely a good thing to do, so I'm not suggesting you don't address them. Just suggesting you think through how you address them and practice, have a plan in place in advance, so that you can take control of your thought process during the heat of the moment. I have had to do a lot of that myself

At some point, if you are going to MC or are sitting down to talk things out, it might be helpful to point out in a non-accusational way that those 3 warrant discussion and working through. Get a MC to mediate if necessary. But present it like setting boundaries: E.g., "I want this marriage to work. I do have some concerns about ABC that I feel XYZ about and need to work through those in order to move forward."

Might not be the best way to put it, but you get the idea.

[JulieH]

Tl2

You are right. Winning an argument is not important. The marriage is.

Thank you. In order for this to work, I have to change my mind set. I have complained in the past that I learned all these new tools but had no one to use them on. It seems like I might have an opportunity to use them again. So now I need to reread the instructions.

I am mad that he has stonewalled again, but realize I might have to be patient back off and let him approach.

Court was upsetting and humiliating. It will only get worse if we don't choose to fix marriage. Divorce is devastating. I think him and his mother did not realize how so. I was told by his mom "a lot of people get divorced now. Sometimes it's the best option" and then in next sentence told how she does not want us to divorce. I was told by husband " this is better for kids" They were expecting us to all just be Friends and share holidays together and that he would have this great freedom he never had in the marriage. Sadly they are both losing some very important bonding opportunities with the kids every day that goes on. Now he will lose money. He chose this and his mother enabled it. I don't know why I was feeling guilty yesterday.

My advantage... No rush. Financially things are easier for me, upsetting to him. I am getting more of a break then ever before. only thing that really [censored] is my living arrangement.

[Painter]

Julie, with an improved financial situation, can you find your own place? Am I right that you live with your parents? Even find a place to share with someone else?

[Zues126]

He feels humiliated and feels like I was treating him like a dead beat dad by bringing him to family court. he is not a dead beat dad but he was not contributing fairly and I felt I had no other recourse. I could have written him a letter and asserted myself better from the beginning. but instead I built up resentment. I was also convinced things were over and he did not want to work on reconciliation at that time.

How could going to court not bring out anger and harsh. I should have been prepared. I was doing ok until he fought over a few hundred dollars and then I just could not keep from commenting

Julie,

I get how hard this is. I don't have answers but wanted to keep posting anyway to let you know I'm following.

It's easier to look at from the outside. When WAH says 'how dare you file cs' he's saying how he feels. He feels you are attacking his character and suggesting that he's not a responsible man. If he worked and supported the family for years it could make him feel that all was dismissed and taken for granted. I know that men in general find court involvement more violating than anything in the world, the same way people feel violated when someone breaks into their house and steals from them (you might want to read some articles on how men feel about child support).

The conflict is that while you may have been very RIGHT to file, and protect your family...that doesn't change how it feels to him. Meanwhile you're feeling he's attacking what you've done and painting you to be some controlling or vindictive or manipulative or greedy or hurtful person, so you are trying to debate him into seeing why you did what you did. So you're going in circles.

My question is- is it possible for you to validate how he feels, without defending your actions, or without going along with the idea that your actions were wrong? Look at the following statements:

H, I am really sorry that the situation has come to this.
I can see that being lumped in to a group of men that don't have a tenth the character you do could feel I don't understand the quality you have as a dad.
I understand you find court involvement very distasteful, and that it feels violating to dictate how you parent your children
I can see that my actions could make it seem I am unappreciative of the ways you provided for our family without fail, year after year, through a tough economy, while many others around us weren't so fortunate

Do any of these statements say that you were wrong to file cs, or that you wouldn't do it again? Not at all! You are just letting his feelings, which are true because they are real, be heard. You are also indirectly complimenting him, giving him validation, praise, admiration...everything a man NEEDS. Shoot, I feel like he's telling you what he needs almost directly, just give it to him!!!

I know you have your feelings too...but I think they say 'seek first to understand, not to be understood'. Another from sales is 'they don't care what you know until they know that you care'. Or Mark Twain 'a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still'.

Bottom line, you can post on here to feel heard, but you do need to step up your validating game and practice this. Eliminate the expectations of being understood. The irony is that if you do this, consistently, for a few interactions or a few months, before you even get around to the part where he wants to know how you're feeling, he'll have a general outlook towards you that you are reasonable, caring, and safe to be around. Then instead of having to convince him or win him over with a debate, he'll actually just have warm feelings towards you instead.

I know it ain't easy, but this is a very crucial point. I don't want you to be D in 6 months with him telling his friends how he tried but you were impossible. Don't let that happen. No expectations, he controls him, but you can do this Julie. Vent away on here, shoot, you know I do Then validate!

[JulieH]

Zues, I have just tried your approach. thank you for helping me to see what he was feeling. I kind of understood he was humiliated, but not in that way. I had been approaching it as the one that was greatly wronged.

I think I need to write this and read this every day for now..." Eliminate the expectations of being understood". I keep trying to be and it is and has never worked.

I don't want to be divorced in 6 months either. And he keeps saying how much he tried and I don't see it. I say it was his choice to leave and he keeps saying it was not. This I truly do not get. So it is scary but very helpful to me how much you do grasp our situation.

Thank you.

[JulieH]

Painter...we live in literally the most expensive area of the country, in which wages are stagnant (same or lower then other parts of country) but cost of living is insane. This contributed greatly to many of our stresses and problems. To move out would come with sacrifices... Affordable neighborhoods are unsafe and have very low quality school districts.

[Zues126]

Very proud of you Julie. Our own views and feelings are so powerful it can be hard to see past them. What most people do is evaluate the legitimacy of their own feelings, views, and opinions, and if they find no fault with them they assume they are right and the other person is wrong. What gets tricky is that the other person is doing the same thing. It's really, really hard to even understand that there is another way.

And then, just when you start to understand it, it is even harder to do. Like impossible. I am not saying I can do it. And when I talk about being unsure if I can be in a relationship and other people are like 'meh, you'll be fine', I just keep coming back to whether I could've done better in my sitch if I had to do it again. I'm sure in many ways I could, but sometimes I'm not sure.

So hard to understand, and harder to do.

It's like the line- "There is no difference between theory and practice- in theory. But there is in practice."

[JulieH]

Haven't been posting because absolutely nothing is happening in my situation. But I noticed I am starting to hijack other's threads, so I obviously am in need of venting.

Husband called to discuss plans for kids for Christmas, but absolutely no talk about reconciliation. Still barely calls to check on kids but is concerned about seeing them on Christmas which pisses me off. What about the rest of the [censored] year? Will write more on this.

I am still consumed with anger torwards him. I even mentioned on someone else's post that I even get angry at his mother (and she wants us back together).
I often do not feel like it would be possible to rebuild any type of relationship. Mostly because he does not bother to communicate with me. The space has pushed me further apart from him and to be honest I want him to suffer. I feel like I am an easy slip to the dark side . I don't have the feeling others on this site have for their spouses. I am less forgiving. I don't need or want him back on his terms. I don't want a marriage where I am doomed to be a servant and his role is mechanic. I want a relationship where we do things together. In counseling he said he wanted a marriage like his parents (not knowing the story behind it) I do not want his mother's life for myself? He does not and has never communicated with me. He is the one that left us, so I will not be the one to fix this. I will not wait much longer in this limbo though. I feel this way most of the time. Occasionally some feelings of peace and hope and compassion come through, but not very often.

I don't know what I want to do at this Point. I am lonely. I want a companion and everything that goes with that. The only way to have that is to finalize things with him. He obviously does not want it. He has walked out, told me he can not work on reconciliation then told me he wants to and does nothing. For this to work, it's his turn. I spent so much time trying to work things out.

[JulieH]

What frusturates me is that when I used Zues advise, or in the past after pouring my heart out , he responds with no longer then 6 word sentences with respnses that sound like he is using condescending validation statements like .."I hear you". "We are both hurting" "I am sorry too". But they are shallow and say nothing..except maybe he is trying to avoid fighting. I have been stonewalled for a very long time.

I know it could be worse. Many of you are dealing with cruel and vicious comments. I at least do not have that to listen to. I feel like making the cruel and vicious comments. (I have only done so in my mind)

[Zues126]

Remember Cadet's advise: Detach, and No Expectations.

If you are validating him in hopes he will respond the way you want him to, you have expectations and are attached to the outcome.

I understand your anger. I had a LOT of anger. At XW for a long time. Then at the world once I saw how many people acted this way and how many more were complicit with this behavior. And of course at the court systems for legitimizing it. I'm sure I still have some smoldering embers of anger which is why I'm so introverted lately, I withdraw from the world because I think I just don't want to be close to anyone anymore most days.

My thoughts are simply that you should continue to be patient and not take any action. If you 'gave up and got D' you'd still have to work through a ton of anger. It wouldn't change how you felt. So getting divorced wouldn't speed up the process of getting through your pain or anger. But that doesn't mean you have to try to keep finding love for WAH or trying to rekindle the desire for your M.

For me it was learning that I could truly let go of the M in my HEART without acting differently with my BEHAVIOR. Bottom line, on the outside I was just doing my thing, being the man I wanted to be, working, parenting my child, and letting life pass. On the inside I was working through my emotions, posting, talking with my friends, and breathing deep.

Keep posting Julie, I think beneath your anger there is pain, and behind that pain is a deeply profound and sensitive spirit that has tremendous heart. You are already an amazing person, I can't wait to see who you are after transcending all of this.