I'm sure there is much wisdom in what you've written, but I know it's gonna take me some time, and many reads, to absorb it. No problem about the handle - it didn't make sense you'd be saying that to SD on my thread, so I automatically assumed you were talking to me (arrogance? ).
wwb: I was so flattered that you wrote such a long post to me on Tim47's thread - until I got to the end and read the next post... Anyhow, I know what you mean about anger. I sing all around the house and tell jokes but sometimes I get mad when the kids get uppity or won't do their homework. W and Ks constantly tell me I’m grumpy but actually I’m a lot more happy than grumpy. W is grumpy most of the time and is often on me and the kid’s backs about something or other. She has a similar attitude to your H – sees problems in everything - although not quite as bad as your H. When I started reading the SSM book I realised that I had to stop all the anger and mostly I have. Mind you, it’s not easy when I have been trying hard to fill W’s love tank and then get knocked back over something trivial like eating the last choc in the box. Yesterday in the car S11 said that he was fed up with mum being on his back all the time – he was told off for leaving his coat at a party (he was forced to wear it there). I guess because I have not been as angry her anger has become more obvious. My guess is if I can stay in control then she will cool off too. SD
Quote: ...She has a similar attitude to your H – sees problems in everything ...
Wow, mine too! Yes, I am angry and bitter, but I'm also the eternal optimist (I'm still here after 25 years, no?), and I generally try not to show it. I also tend to blow up sometimes, and sometimes over seemingly trivial things, and my R with DD20 is sometimes VERY stormy (we're a lot alike tempramentally, and she gets PMS something fierce), but I am aware of it and trying to control it. I think I need to work harder at that.
It would be interesting to know if a grumpy, pessimistic attitude is more common among LD/ND people than among HD people. I do know my W is always complaining about something, or it seems that way most of the time. She's always tired, always stressed, always busy, etc. I've suspected for a long time that she may be clinically depressed, at least mildly, and I'm hoping this is one thing her C will explore, when she gets one.
Tim, Don't put too much hope in C. I arranged a course and went for a session on my own before I could persuade W to come. While I found it easy to tell my life story W hardly said anything. Because it was all my grievences being aired and the C was trying to deal with them, W got the feeling that it was me and the C ganging up against her. She would not go for a session on her own and she missed at least one more session. After the last one she described it as the worst experience of her life and a complete waste of time and money. The best work you can do is to be your own C and sort yourself out particularly from an anger/resentment point of view and do the 180s where your behaviour is having the opposite effect to what you want. If things go as described in the book, her attitude should improve "by itself". SD
Seriously, I agree - we've already had 2 courses of C, the second of which lasted over 6 months. Didn't accomplish a thing. Same thing, W felt ganged-up-on, felt I was coming across to C as the "golden boy", and she was looking like the wicked witch, so it was a threat to her, and she wasn't motivated to participate. Add to that that she has a deep aversion to self-examination (self-esteem issues that, I fear, go back to childhood), and I'm really not expecting much, alhtough this time will be a bit different - she's initially going on her own. No plans for me to join at present. She also has said she might be willing to try sex therapy, although neither of us has a clear idea what that really is.
Anyway, as stated elsewhere (at the risk of being boring), I plan to engage her this weekend in conversation about expectations, not only for C, but also for our future. I'm going to be very clear that my expectations include
- her taking our problems seriously enough to make them a priority, - goal-setting and action-planning, for both of us, and
- meaningful dialog on our problems and what to do about them.
Without at least those things going on, in my mind there is no M, and we might as well realize it and start planning what comes after.
The cause of my current funk is my expectation that she will not see my expectations as reasonable, and will not be willing to put in the effort I see as necessary. I think we will have a fundamental difference of opinion as to what's needed and when, and what's reasonable to expect.
I'm hoping she will surprise me, but based on past experience, I'm not optimistic...
Just keep it simple Tim, Don't give her a long list of back rubs every day, bj every 3 days, ML twice a week etc. Be realistic and try for ML once a week at a fixed agreed time where it is accepted that there will be no need for sensitive precoital negotiations. You just do it, say thank you and go to sleep. After a time it may get to be more than that but for the time being treat it as a trial run. It has worked for me so far although admitedly for only 2 weeks. SD
First of all SD, D36 and Tim47 you are all my fellows and I love you dearly. I may be female but these problems we have united us. I am glad for you when you get some LM and I am grateful that you let me in the club house. H went to counseling with me, heard what I had to say, his C was there with and he was perfectly charming. Then we got in the car and all the charm went away and this whole thing started. The funny thing about it is he asked for the joint C session. I did not want him to know what I said to my C and I certainly didn't want to air it in "court". That's when I found out he will go to just about any length to prove that he is right. He says I betrayed him and he knew I didn't do it on purpose but that still proved that I couldn't be trusted. This withholding affection, less and less sex, picking apart the good stuff I try to do, constant criticizing, even in bed. I don't know about you guys but it just about kills me to have him say something mean right after ML. Or to have him bring it up in a middle of an arguement and proceed to instruct me in the fine art of LM. I would not have minded if it was done so it could be better later on, there was no later on. He tells me he doesn't like things a certain way so I change and then he changes too. It is all this strange game where only he knows the rules.
He watches things on the tube that are "real" but negative. When I point out that everything he watches only reinforces his negative outlook, he claims that he lives in a "real" world where everything is that way. Well, if a negative world is so "real" how do you explain what happen in Detroit last summer when we had the blackout? Who were those people helping each other and cheering each other up? What was wrong with that picture? "My world" is full of fake cheerfulness and he never believes anything I say that is postive. He only believes things that are said in anger or out of frustration. To him that is the only time when I am telling the truth. When I am calm and rational, I'm lying. Even though what he is doing with me didn't work in his first and second marriages, he still keeps doing the same thing. He even calls me by their names, that's how alike he sees us. Do your mates do this too? If it is not working, why keep doing it? If you are unhappy and you want to be happy and someone said the answer to being happy would only cost 4 weekly payments of 19.95 plus shipping and handling they could sell out in minutes. Everyone would want a cure for unhappiness that came out of a bottle. Now, tell those same people they could be happy all the time if they change their negative thinking. You couldn't pay someone enough money beleive that they could be happy if the thought they were happy. It can't be that simple, can it? Sure, it can be that simple and that hard and it is true. Anytime I get to dwelling on how miserable I am I feel bad but let me spend my time thinking about God's Goodness and mercy and the next thing you know I am smiling and feeling better. Sad and angry thoughts = feeling bad. Happy and calm thoughts = feeling good. DUH. I choose to be happy. So, I'll say goodnight and take my happy and tried self to bed.
I just gave W my "expectations" and the toil I went through prior nearly killed me. Listen, I think it's a great idea to set the expectation and it will be a huge relief when you finally do it. But do not sell yourself short because it's been such a dry spell. The ST I talked to on the phone said that you really can't increase the amount once it's been established or it will look like a moving target. I also discovered that the feelings come back quickly once it starts to happen and your need for more attention goes up (at least it did for me). It might be better to shoot high. If she wants to negotiate, then tell her "look, this is not a business transaction...this is the amount of ML that I need to keep my heart warm for you and the family."
For all practical purposes, she's going to have to get her desire back at some point and it will be a lot less work if it's for you instead of the next guy. Her only other option is to grow old alone. If she's willing to accept that or the prospect of a D, then your expectations are meaningless and you should immediately have a "come to Jeezus" meeting with her and negotiate either an exit strategy or a complete revival.
I'm trying to figure out what you "footing" is from your posts. Have you let it be known that the countdown clock is running? I actually had to "shock" my wide a little to get her to see the big picture of our situation by telling her that it's all or nothing time....that I will give 100% if she does. It helped that I was completely disconnected from her prior to this because it gave me the ability to bring something better to the table.
Quote: I'm trying to figure out what you "footing" is from your posts. Have you let it be known that the countdown clock is running? I actually had to "shock" my wide a little to get her to see the big picture of our situation by telling her that it's all or nothing time....that I will give 100% if she does.
That's my plan, but we haven't had that conversation yet. My intention is to have it this weekend. Yesterday was a wash because she's painting S18's room, plus there was DD20's concert last night (smashing, BTW - Schubert's Mass in Eb Major), so I'm hoping for today, but we'll be finishing up the painting, then she wants to do her parents' income tax return, so we'll see. I do intend to make it like an intervention if I have to (i.e. interrupt her in the middle of something, pull her away from it, and say "we really need to have this talk").
I really am thinking that one major contributor to my sitch has been my willingness to "let things slide" for long periods of time, while waiting for "conditions to be better" or for her to make some move, or something. I'll be letting her know that those days are OVER!
THe NATURAL reaction to being a sex starved man is to get depressed and to become grumpy. I know that I catch myself getting very cross with my children at times for them just being kids. And our ND wifes don't ever connect our grumpiness to the lack of sex. They end up thinking WE are depressed. I think this is why Dr. Laura says that men are NOT in control of their emotions, they rely upon the WIFE for their emotions.
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