I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting this. It's long, and for that I apologize in advance (thereby making it that much longer...). I wanted to try to distill as much of my thinking on the "subject at hand" as I could. PLEASE feel free to tell me where I'm (deceiving myself, WRONG, pig-headed, old-fashioned, WRONG, etc.). Or just ignore it, and it'll drop down out of sight. I put this in a new thread, because I think it may be of a more general nature, and if it generates discussion, I didn't want it dirtying-up my "sitch" thread. I am NOT trying to start any flame wars, but if flames are to be thrown my way, I'll assume I deserve them.
FWIW, here it is:
It's not just about sex, folks!
Sex is NOT the only issue, or even the biggest one! Yes, I know we're all sitting around here b!tching about not getting any, but sex is just the medium, not the message (sorry, mr. McLuhan).
So, what's it about?
It's about LOVE.
It's about Communication.
It's about Togetherness.
It's about INTIMACY.
It's about V-A-L-I-D-A-T-I-O-N.
It's about Self-Esteem.
It's about Self-Expression.
Take LOVE, for instance. What is love, without an expression of it? Pretty theoretical, IMHO. If you love me, how am I supposed to know it? Am I just supposed to "know" it? Take it for granted? How? You can say "I express it through the things I do for you, like looking after the house and kids (or whatever)." Okay, that's ONE possible Love Language, but what if I don't have a receptor for that message? What if I don't hear it? If the message isn't received, has there been any communication? If an idea is expressed, but that expression finds no audience, has there been any exchange? ("tree in the forest" problem?)
So I complain about not receiving the message. I know there is a message, because you told me you sent one (when I complained about not getting one), but I still can't receive it. So for me, there is no message. When I explain that in order for me to receive the message, I need at least some of it in a certain form, you tell me that you don't send messages in that form.
Meanwhile, you tell me that in order for you to receive my message, I must send it coded a certain way. It has to be in a certain form, a certain medium. And you tell me that if I ever expect to get any of your messages in the way I need them, I better send all my messages to you in your preferred format.
Huh?
So I guess that covers Love and Communication, since what we're talking about here is using sex (touch) to communicate love. At least that's what I'm talking about.
So how about Togetherness? When I'm with you sexually, I can express an entire range of tender feelings for you, and for you to allow me the opportunity to express that to you, also fulfills a need in me, and helps me to feel good about myself. It's even better when you can spend some time expressing similar feelings for me (even necessary to a healthy marriage). Now, what I'm talking about here are things many may not even consider "sexual". I'm talking about sitting together, talking, laughing together, spending time holding hands, kissing, (you know... "making out"), and just staying on a wavelength with each other. This also has to do with INTIMACY. Being intimate with each other goes WAY beyond sex - it has to do with what we talk about together, being "in tune" with each other, being "sympatico" (no, not the high-speed Internet connection), really connecting with each other. It means being able to look at each other with eyes wide open, and sharing each others' souls. It means we can discuss any sexual act, or any fantasy, or any thought or feeling, and know the other isn't going to attack us or blame us or belittle us or make us feel ashamed. The cliche in the 60's was "love means never having to say you're sorry", but this was an inaccurate statement of the issue - love means never having to be ashamed of who you are in front of your mate.
I think the last three go pretty much together - starting with V-A-L-I-D-A-T-I-O-N. When we can be truly intimate with each other, and at ease around each other, then I feel validated as a human being, and as a mate. Not having this validation causes me to doubt myself, and leads to a great deal of stress and anxiety. Marriage, to me, is a calling, and this calling goes to the very center of my being. It is a core part of who I am and what I'm about. I knew from a very young age that I was called to get married and raise a family. My parents are still married, after almost 50 years. I always expected that this would be my experience, also. So this type of validation, not of my expectations, but of the right-ness of my calling, is extremely important to me.
Having this kind of validation gives me the self-esteem and self-confidence to express who I am to the fullest, which is the healthiest way to be, and has the potential to provide many benefits not only for me, but for my family as well - if I am truly happy and at peace with myself, how can that not be a good thing for those around me?
At this point, I'd also like to express a related idea that has come to my while writing this. I started by saying it's not just about sex, but it's also not "just sex". What I mean is, sex is a good thing!
The fact that I have these desires is natural. I am NOT a "sex maniac" or a "sex addict". I respect women, and I teach my sons to respect women. I enjoy erotica, and I see it as a normal and natural extension of an adult's natural interest in sex, but I don't use it to excess. I think masturbation has its place in a healthy adult life, but NOT as the only means, or even the most prominent means, of sexual expression.
In other words, I have a right to my sexuality, and it's OKAY for me to want sex. The fact that I have a BIG desire for sex does NOT belittle you in any way. At least it shouldn't. It's OKAY for you to say "I'm not in the mood," but not when that's your response most of the time. If I'm in the mood and you're not, it's OKAY for me to want you to lovingly help me out in any loving way you can, even if that doesn't include "the act". It's OKAY for you to decline to do so, but not all the time.
(I don't think I've expressed that last part very well, and in fact now that I read it up here, it all looks kind of trite, or beligerent, and confusing/not well thought-out, but maybe you guys can help me to think it through and get it right.)
that was one of the shortest "long posts" I've ever read on this bb.
is this intended to be a letter or statement to w? or are you just venting out your frustrations?
Of course it all does make sense...We could all pick it apart piece by piece but if we did that it would no longer be your expression it would be a conglomeration of all our thoughts.
IF this is intended to be put into some form of communication to w...why don't you read it point by point as if you are her and attempt to hear it from her perspective.
then write your/her counter response to each point.
Thanks for your input, LL. I guess it just turned out to be a vent, and not a very good one at that. I've been working on it for a couple of days, thinking about it, adding to it, trying to get in there everything I wanted to say from every angle, but I think I got fuzzy around the edges. You're right, it reads like a letter to W, which it's really not intended as, but maybe the frustrations of the past day or so got mangled up in there.
Good idea about trying to respond to it point-by-point as if I were W. It might help me to think from her perspective a bit. Earlier this evening I dropped down into the DR forum, and read the first chapter. It did make me think that it might be useful to ask myself "what am I doing to contribute to my sitch?" I do take responsibility for my part, I think. I don't believe I'm blaming it all on her, but maybe I get in the habit of whining sometimes, and forget that it takes two to make a sitch.
Of course, if I followed your suggestion literally, I think I'd end up arguing with myself, and if I couldn't agree with myself, I guess I'd have to leave myself...
I wasn't sure if your post was or wasn't intended to be a letter to w at some point (thought that may be your querry over whether it was ok to post it or not). Plenty of my posts started out as statements but ended up being rants directed at h...it was always odd to look back and see the wording changing from h to you.
In any case, even though you may argue with yourself it may be wise to read it from w's point of view. And no you wouldn't have to leave yourself (yes I know it was said in jest) you may however have to leave some beliefs you've been holding onto.
Since you've popped in and read some of dr and it's making sense to you, I'd suggest you round yourself up a copy as there is a whole lot of useful info in it.
and just incase you're wondering, I am the hd spouse in my m so understand very well where you are comming from. DR/DB has helped me to see things a bit differently even if only a bit.
Quote: DR/DB has helped me to see things a bit differently even if only a bit.
I had to smile wryly when I read that. I then also looked at your Reged date and number of posts... my GAWD!! You've been here a WHILE! I will definitely have to search out and read your posts - I may learn something. OTOH, the very fact you're still here doesn't fill me with hope, and I'm sure CeMar, SD and Hairdog have already beat me to that conclusion...
That was nicely done. There's nothing off base about that at all. The point you made about "not being ashamed in front of the one you love"...wow. That makes me want to open another can wormy discussions with W.
Great post.
I'm going to my journal to bitch about the fact that my W loves the TV more than me.
I've been here a while. SSM wasn't a book when I arrived and I've seen the bb change colors so many damn times it makes me dizzy. Don't be turned off of hope by the fact that I'm still around, there are different reasons for it.
As you will see if you venture over to my neck of the woods (btw I do have a thread floating around this forum too called "just the wife") things are progressing. A ssm can as you are discovering lead to other issues. It is my belief that the ssm was cause but who knows could be a case like DBrooke (newly posted in this forum) where other factors are the cause of ssm and I/we focus on the symptom rather than the general problems cuase heck the symptom is what we see/feel/hear etc.
The links provided in my current thread were the first ones..there were others that followed but that's where I started so it may show you that progress is possible.
Still struggle with the ssm issue but it has gotten better and slowly I hope it will get even better and well if it doesn't well then I'll just have to start leaving "toys" around for h to find.
I agree with everything you say Tim. It is all about love, and that is the primary communication that has to be re-established. Until then, sex is just a meaningless act. SD
Hey, SD you talk like I do. Considering how much I love murder mysteries, esp. with a hint of a British accent that might not be a surprise. My rant and raves are usually about what love really means and how anger is a secondary emotion. My H is ALWAYS angry about something. If he can't find something to be angry about he is so uncomfortable that it's comical. The fact that it is becoming comical to me is a blessing from on high. I know it sounds a little crazy but I can survive anything I can laugh about. That's why I wanted a H with a sense of humor. I figure we could grow old together giggling about life's little quirks. Instead I got an angry, mad at the world, the world owe me better, why me, poor me, don't know body know the trouble I see fake! Talk about bait and switch. And I told him on the first date if that was who he was keep stepping and he sat there and lied about who he was and what he wanted. About the only thing he got right was his name, birthday and ss#. Everything else was a lie. And what was his excuse when he was confronted later with this fact? "I thought you were lying,too. I thought you was only kidding and you would change." TALK ABOUT SOME LAME SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!!!!!
So I preach some lovely sermons to people I meet, I drive a city bus so meet a lot of people every day, I tell people about to marry don't do it if you expect the other person to change. I tell them if you are unwilling to change, share or compromise donot marry, those things go with the territory. I also teach them that wonderful phrase I learned from Joyce Meyers "I think I am right but I might be wrong". Now that is a real get out jail free card!
I think that love is so much bigger than sex. Love is a verb. That's means there are actions taking place and that means I get to choose how I response to what going around me. I perfer to be happy and being happy is like love on simmer it's not boiling over but it like the base temperture. You know like my idle speed is happy. I got this long list of things I'm grateful for and I try to add at least one new thing every day. My Grandmother, Mom's side, said three things to a young me that helps this older me. She said, learn something new every day and you will never grow old. Since even a stopped watch is right twice a day, so someone who is always wrong can be right sometimes. And when you get sick don't lay there get up put your clothes and act like you feel fine anyway. She said it would fool the germs into thinking they were in the wrong place and they would leave sooner. Not bad for an old lady that smoked a corncob pipe and dipped snuff. I try to remember that "love never fails" and that love can be applied to any sitch. There is the loving response to what going on and there's the angry, selfish and sometimes hateful response. I don't have to be angry no matter what some else says. By the way that is something we fight about I am too cheerful. He has this long list of things that makes him angry and he never once questions if there is another way to go. So the line is long at the bank, it's moving and they haven't ran out of money and the lady in line with me is playing with her daughter and that man needs a little help because his hand is bandaged and the sun is shining and I got a small piece of chocolate to eat later on so what's the problem. Not my mate, he'd be bent out of shape just because the little girl spilled her soda and mommy didn't clean it up. Or she got some on dress and mom didn't have time to change her so they had to go to church that way and she ought to be ashamed of herself coming out with her child looking like that and she's a unfit mother because she should have been prepared for that and anything else. Lord, please spare me the shouldas, couldas and the oughtas.
Trust me, I could go on for pages. Maybe that's why writers have to have experience the stuff they write about. I never write when stuff is smooth sailing, I be busy having fun. But when the storms hit and my house is shaking I find that writing can get me through a lot. My H don't like people, except for small babies that belong to someone else and are asleep, so I go long periods in this house without a sound and I am female, I need to talk. When I can't talk, I write. I always wrote I just never seriously thought of it as a career move. I did not want to depend on the whim of the public for my next meal. It loses something for me if it has to follow a formula. I like to write then edit. Sometimes trying to fit into a pattern is too hard when it comes. This is really the first time since I found this place that I even tried to let the words flow like this because I know I talk too much and I write like I talk. I said all of this to let you know, SD, and the rest of you wonderful "guys" out there know that sometimes we just have to talk so talk to me. By the way don't worry about your spelling, it's a family trait for us, we can count easy but spell, ugh! Thank God for spell check.
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Growing older, mandatory. Growing up, optional. Growing wiser, a privilege.
I write. I always wrote I just never seriously thought of it as a career move. I did not want to depend on the whim of the public for my next meal. It loses something for me if it has to follow a formula. I like to write then edit. Sometimes trying to fit into a pattern is too hard when it comes. This is really the first time since I found this place that I even tried to let the words flow like this because I know I talk too much and I write like I talk. I said all of this to let you know, SD, and the rest of you wonderful "guys" out there know that sometimes we just have to talk so talk to me. 
