Pho's thread- solving problems

[Vanilla]

This phenomenon is referred to as projection.

It's when a H sees you as an extension of himself, a fit to complete him. Any problems he has appears as your issues and this is sometimes called blame shifting.

So whatever he says about you is mirroring him. Good and bad.

A projection can be of unacceptable thoughts, motivations, desires and feelings that are placed in the outside world and attributed to someone else. In other words if your H doesn't like parts of himself and his life he will externalise them on others including you. In some psychological schools projection isn't thought to be solely arbitrary, it takes a small fault in another or typical human trait and latches the projection in a much bigger way. So for example most of us including you get lazy sometimes so a projection would be "you are always lazy and never do the things I like." Or occasionally you tell a white lie so " you lie all the time, you are a compulsive liar".

The best things can also be projected putting you on a pedestal too, which is equally problematic.

All of this happens at times of great stress or crisis. It's to a certain degree normal behaviour as we all do this, and it can create rapport and desire, and ease us through difficult times. We can buy another's view of us as this allows us to believe the issue is under our control and thus can be changed. Hence you never clean the house or share the chores, makes us believe if we do those things the problem is resolved, when actually it isn't our issue.

So how do we distinguish between genuine concerns and projections? Genuine concerns are stated as boundaries and requests. I would like you to do X Y or Z in future or when you do X, I feel Y so Z is the consequence.

Counter projection involves reflecting back the projection by accepting it, so for example if you are told you are selfish and as its a human trait (every one is selfish) then you believe the germ of truth.

I used to accept as completely true the statement that "you are the most selfish person in the world", hence fulfilling the role designated to me. At its worst it created serious denial problems in My WH. In accepting the shadows within me (for example Plain Vanilla in my case) and the parts which are unacceptable (for example screaming banshee) I become myself. We are all a balance of traits positive, negative and human. In that way what another says won't affect us. If you feel there is truth in the projections, it will hurt. The more absurd they are (like your bike example) the easier it is to reject.

Don't take the bait don't discuss, explain, defend, respond, attack, back, project back, or use logical. Don't argue, H projecting can now do exactly what he intended that is to deflect the focus from himself.

The worse H feels about what he has done, wants, or feels, the more attacking and vehement he may be. It’s a crazy-making for you, so merely state " really?" Or " if you say so" or " I don't accept that" and then STFU. If there is a little truth in it " I can see why you might think that although I can't agree". Try fogging " there might be something in what you say H" or "I will consider that"
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Examples off WH projections from my sitch:

“You are the most selfish person in the world ever.” This means I’m very selfish indeed and I don’t want to admit it or deal with it.

“You never want me to have my own opinion and my opinions don't count " This means I am very judgmental of others and myself and because I really think this is poor I am blaming you.

“Everything is about you and you never consider me or buy me anything I like. You don't cook the food I want.” This means I am so fond of myself and need you to be my servant for all my needs, and feed me like a dependent child.

“You’re crazy, you have worms in your brain and need serious help, go get yourself sorted in a mental hospital” This means I am very frightened feeling or acting out of control and this is something I need help with but can't acknowledge.

"You’re abusive to me and extremely nasty and unpleasant.” Means I know that I am behaving in an abusive way and I refuse to deal with it, so I make myself think it's you.
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There are a few I spotted in yours

" You destroyed MILs life" means I think I am the cause of my mothers health and annoyance and I can't face that.

" you don't go biking with me" means I don't go biking any more so I am blaming you for not going with me.

" it's all her" means I know it's all me and I can't accept that as it's too painful.

Those are my thoughts from my notes, hope it's helpful.

V

[Dawgs]

Hi Pho! Thank you for stopping by in mine! It does seem that our situations are very similar. Maybe that's why reading your thread helps me, too.

In the last 2 months twice I "caught" H realizing that one of his earlier statements was completely proven to be false, and he got a really confused look on his face and got really quiet. Big improvement over 6-9 months ago when he would have flipped out and accused me of something really odd, like causing his mother's fibromyalgia. So he is coming out of it, but it has been extremely slow and painful and I do not trust him yet.

My W goes quiet, too. She will argue at times but she almost always tries to shift it to me. For example, I called her out the other day for rewriting history on a certain thing and she immediately came back with "or maybe its you" thing. That must be a famous line or something like that. But the best one of all came when the MC called her out - we were discussing on why I don't need a "break" from the kids and go out for an all-day thing (or the like) like she has sometimes needs to do (some people do need to recharge at times, and she is one) and when I said I prefer to stay with the kids she went ballistic. One of the few times she has ever reacted like that in MC...she went on about "now I am a bad mother" and the like. The MC calmed her down and told her that wasn't the message that she got and that some people don't need that recharge time. To which the W replied, well thats the way I see it. So, you kind of get a small glimpse of my world.

We also have MC tomorrow night and I am dreading it. Overall the sessions have been going better, but in the last session H seemed really agitated over the fact that I don't like biking. With the same intensity as if I didn't like sex, or something serious. Funny thing is, it has probably been a year since H got on his bike, so wtf is he even talking about? And even then, he has a couple of guy friends who he used to bike with, can't that be his guy thing?

The MC will be fine! Just go into it with an open mind and let things happen. I try to not take things personally (extremely hard to do when it is the love of your life) and that helps me to look at things differently. Kind of like the "don't believe what they say" sort of thing. It's just them putting their own issues on us. That's all. I am hoping that at some point a break through will happen in ours because she does seem to talk best there, but I never go in with any sort of hope - in fact, as with you, I dread ours too, because that seems to be the time I get attacked the most.

Thank you for helping me in mine! I follow yours because ours is so similar and I draw strength from yours. Thank you again!

[gonegrl]

Wow is that really true? I can see my husband having unresolved childhood issues that him and his mom will deny, lie about to themselves, and ignore through work (husband) and compulsive need for clean house and holiday decorations and work and just taking on everything (mil). It's funny cause husband paints me as dysfunctional one with chaotice, critical and unorganized family.

Julie, I think it's true. If you think about it, we all have our faults, there is nobody who is married who can honestly say their spouse is perfect. But the thing is how you choose to react to it, how you choose to interpret it. My H thinks I exaggerate. Sometimes I have exaggerated. I am not a liar, but I think everyone distorts things a bit in their minds, everyone might say "I spent $10" When they really spent $9, that type of thing. Because of H's childhood, his mother lied ALL of the time and still does, and changes the truth to fit her needs and "win", he cannot handle an exaggeration- he thinks I am trying to "pull something on him." Someone who didn't have that childhood issue, would simply think "she's exaggerating a bit" and not think twice. Or be mildly annoyed. Or not even notice. Because it isn't an issue for them.

Also, thank you Julie, for your question for me earlier. You really made me think hard and I have come to the conclusion that what my H really needs is not for me to change (I can and will change anyway because its the right thing to do), but I really believe what he needs is to be validated. Your question brought me to this discovery. This is huge, and very liberating for me, I will get back to you once I have had a chance to test this theory. I really believe this might be key though, it fits the psychology, it fits DB, it is easier than changing my whole personality, (and healthier too!). Thank you.

[gonegrl]

It's so hard to keep calm when they start spewing the martyr/victim bs at you, but you are doing a fantastic job and setting a great example for your kids.

Thank you Gmum. It just crossed my mind that MIL is always telling everyone "don't be a martyr." This is a deep problem within H's family of origin- the whole martyr/victim complex. This is them. H's grandparents, parents, now H. And my S is picking up on it. My d is the opposite, she is a fighter and does not take any BS. Another layer of complication.

[otw]

I have commented on a few threads and have my own going, but i am always reading everyones. Something today made me want to post here. I am reading about the interactions you all are having with your spouses and while they may be crazy people and make things very difficult, i have to admit i think i may be a little jealous.

Let me explain...We are given extensive great advice here on how to handle these situations and processes to possibly help. My case I have not had any bad contact or any contact for that matter since W left. Only about kids. I am sitting here wondering how i show differences or have a chance when the communication is about logistics with kids and nothing more. I know I may be rushing things but just my thoughts.

I think you are doing great posting here and getting great advice. Best of luck

[2point0]

I'm right there with you otw. At least you have a reason to keep in touch - no kids for me. At best, it is a random thought or picture that gets sent via text. All the while, hopes pop up and reality strikes them right back down.

I too have been a little jealous of others' ability to maintain contact. Then I remember how much of a nervous wreck I become shortly after contact. Today is one of those days I just want to get off the ride.

Pho, sorry to hijack for this post. Just needed a second to vent and agree with otw. For what it's worth, I have read and followed your postings for some time. You are incredibly strong. Hijack over.

[gonegrl]

As, thank you for your insight! And please, by all means, diagnose my H for me! I offer him up for your thesis project if you need one!

I know he has fear, depression, I am starting to figure him out.

Whether he can be a good partner for me I have my doubts. But we have 3 children and I am willing to sacrifice my relationship needs for them to have an intact family. At this point. I am not willing to sacrifice all of my needs for the sake of my children, but I do not expect my H to be fully functional. For now I am content that progress is being made. For now my support system of friends, church, and my own ability to manage my emotions are making me less in need of an H who can fulfill my needs. Its a sad reality, but also a positive change.

If H gets his [censored] together tomorrow and is the perfect H for me, who is to say he won't have an accident and be paralyzed and be unable to work (no I am not planning anything- lol- although I am feeling my anger), who is to say I won't? Who is to say we will maintain our health, our strength, our intellect, things can and do happen and the decision to stay with him was based on commitment and not on the condition that he be able to fulfill my needs and be a great partner.

I am in it for the long haul. I am seeing positive changes and I am seeing a very damaged broken man. I am also going to warn my children when they are of dating age to be very very careful to know someone's childhood issues before marrying. To realize that what seems like a sad story of a childhood left behind is a big red flag- and not to walk away from someone with a bad childhood- but to watch them very carefully and get help before problems arise. I guess this applies to everyone, bad or good childhood aside, you never really know.

I have patience, I have faith, I have commitment. I am gaining more and more insight by the day. I wish I knew then what I know now. I would have paid a lot more attention and been more fully in tune with what was unfolding before my eyes. I have grown up a lot from this experience. From what I see, I think H had a big backslide, but now may be caught back up to where he was pre-BD. Not a good place to be, because this where he lost it, but better than in that post BD pit. He seems more logical, more calm. I could have a completely different impression of him 10 minutes from now, I still don't trust him emotionally.

Now to work on how to build resiliency in my children. Because they are going to need it, if H leaves, and they are going to need it in their adult lives. This, I believe, is where H is lacking. He has no resiliency. I believe this applies to other waywards as well. Things get hard, they lose it. That is the difference between them and us. I know, its more complicated than that. But I think that resiliency is the key.

[otw]

@,
I think we all go through those times. I find myself when i am alone wishing this never happened and we were together, then times like last night at kids swim lessons. She told them she was going to come. I was there dreading her showing up for some reason.
I am not sure why. She actually has not shown up to any of the lessons yet which is mind blowing to me. But that is another story

[Dawgs]

Pho, please allow me to jump in. I want to thank you for your question to me. It has also opened to my eyes in a way I didn't think about. I am not sure there is anything I can do about my situation, but your question really got me to thinking. And that's a good thing!

[gonegrl]

I am working my way through the responses here, not ignoring anyone, but its taking me a while to process and also I had no sleep last night.

I had a dream last night.

I was at the top of a tall building with H and his friend, a friend who we haven't seen in a while, years actually, we were walking down the stairs to leave the building. But there was broken glass everywhere and I stopped to pick up the pieces, H told me to leave them but I said, no the kids will step on them. H and his friend went down the stairs ahead of me, as I picked up the glass. So then I start down the stairs, but they had left big suitcases and duffel bags on the stairs, so it was slow going, I had to squeeze past the luggage, move it out of my way, and in some cases jump over it to get past. All the while I could hear their voices below me in the stairwell.

Finally got to a landing and H's friend gave me a statue of a light house. Said "H wanted you to have this gift." I was so happy, reached out to touch it, and a stream of strawberry milkshake shot out of it into my face. H and his friend started laughing, and continued running down the stairs, while I sat there with goopy, disgusting strawberry milkshake dripping down my face.

I woke up with chest pains and couldn't fall back asleep.

Its crazy how symbolic dreams can be. I need a nap. And tonight I am taking an anxiety pill before bed, haven't taken one of those in over a week. I am having a hard time lately, I feel like I am getting a clearer perspective, a stronger resolve, but at the same time I feel like me, personally, am getting more emotional.