Don't know what to do anymore...

[Painter]

Quick recap (I've been posting in Piecing, but there's not much traffic there):

H had an affair last year. It had been an EA for at least a year, then turned into a PA while I was away at school for a few months. Several things contributed to create a perfect storm - him getting laid off (huge blow to self), me disagreeing with him spending all his (our) retirement on a business scheme doomed to fail, old flame with unfinished business contacting him online.

There were some really serious and extensive lies involved during the A, and H even retained a D lawyer and tried to find ways to ban me from our marital home. When I came back I found out about all of this, H said it was over, and we reconciled - on his initiative. I said all the time that I wanted to try to save the marriage, but set some terms for reconciling. He fulfilled two out of three.

We saw a DB counselor for a while, and things were bumpy but gradually getting better. H was still reclusive - rarely answered my calls, we slept in separate bedrooms (still do), not affectionate - but wanted regular sex.

Then H decided he didn't want to do more counseling, that he didn't want to try to show me affection (which is one of my main unmet needs), that it was too much "pressure". He feels pressured very easily.

Right now, I feel very pessimistic about us. H still doesn't answer my calls for the most part, we're still in separate bedrooms, but he feels that he is trying because we sometimes watch TV together (on separate couches) and he's being nicer. He is in fact less angry and somewhat more open to talking about his feelings, but very undecided about our future and seems to want to wait passively to see what happens, rather than take initiative to secure one outcome or the other.

He does not seem concerned with my needs, only his own. If I express my needs, he will change the conversation around to his needs. They are: dinner when he comes home, financial and practical help and keeping the house up (I've taken on a lot more since I'm not working full time right now), and ML regularly. He is hurt that I don't take more initiative to ML. I've tried to explain that there is nothing happening that makes me want it (no affection, no attention). I've tried to create affectionate interaction, but he makes it sexual every time, or even acts awkward, like he doesn't feel comfortable. I've tried to ML a lot to see if it would elicit more affection, like he promised it would, but it doesn't.

He says he's 'trying to feel it' - but he doesn't do anything to create the feeling, it's just when it happens randomly, and his only way of expressing it is by wanting to ML.

I'm ready to give up. I have told him that I cannot live in an affection-less marriage, and that I can't ML when I feel so deprived and rejected every day. Examples of rejection is: Never giving me a hug and kiss when leaving or coming home, never touching me in a non-sexual way, not answering most of my calls, not wanting to spend any time off with me (he admitted that he's not willing to do anything else than what he likes the most, which is an activity I don't enjoy and that he does with his friends), not coming to events where I participate. He rarely says please or thank you, although I notice that he does it more when he is 'trying'. It is really hard for him to ask me for anything - he can say out in the air that 'I need this or that', but he can't say 'Can you help me with this.'

His anger (although less frequent) is also very off-putting. He thinks that I should 'get over it' in 5 minutes once he is done with his outbursts. They usually include profanity and yelling, cursing me out without any attempt to hold back. He is also frequently very grumpy and irrational. He tends to go off when we're in the car and he's driving, so I can't get away from it. There's been some spectacular events where I got reamed out for 20 minutes straight for some perceived offense, during drives that were initially for a very pleasant purpose.

Not saying that it's all his fault and that I'm perfect, but I don't know what to do when I have spelled out my needs, I've tried to fulfill his needs, I've tried to be here, and to go away, I'm GAL'ing like crazy, got two part-time jobs to help out financially, have taken over some of his chores outside, and whatever else he has expressed a need for, but he just seems happier when I'm not home.

I am not going to leave my home, but I think I would be happier being alone than feeling so lonely with someone else.

Advice? Especially from guys, if you think you have ideas.

[roist]

I am not going to leave my home, but I think I would be happier being alone than feeling so lonely with someone else.

Advice? Especially from guys, if you think you have ideas.

I'm sorry to hear that. I was happy for you when you moved to piecing. To me he is not all in so piecing is not possible. Hopefully here you will find the support and advice you need.

On the forum here there are all kinds of situations and none of them are easy,but I can relate to what you said above. It is very tough to feel lonely and have unmet needs and still being in a R. At times I too feel it would be better (or at least easier) to feel the same and not be with anyone.

Us guys are v partial to being physical. Maybe withdrawing that or limiting it to only when your needs are being met (or trying to be met). I am not for punishments as that create I'll feeling but from what you said, the current situation is not working.

Good luck.

[Painter]

Thank you for your good wishes, Roiste. I think I need every bit of it.

You're right, he's not all in. At one point we were piecing, but he has lost momentum, it seems.

Turning him down is a very difficult balancing act. It's not to withhold or penalize, it is simply because I feel rejected and that makes me not want it, and like I'm just being used. I would love to want it - and H could very easily make that happen, but his pride seems to get in the way. I know he feels like he 'shouldn't have to' do anything, I should just be as interested as he is all the time.

I'm very aware what happens with H's emotions when I turn him down - he has made sure to tell me that for years, sometimes very angrily and loudly - but right now it feels like he is cake-eating. His reasons for wanting it has ranged from trying to rekindle his love, to just impulse, to 'well, we're both here...'

It's exasperating that he doesn't listen to what I'm telling him about what makes me feel it. He thinks walking around naked at home should work for me the way it works for him, but the only urge I feel, is to put towels on the furniture!

[trumpet]

Painter,

I'm new here, but coming from a situation where I was looking at porn as a way of coping with life. I know acknowledge that it is an addiction, and was a way of coping. I would many times internalize my feelings and emotions, letting them build, and porn (sex) was my outlet. It sounds like you husband's sexual needs are not for you, but an outlet for his emotions. His verbal outbursts also lend credence to that line of thinking.

Did he have parents who were very cold or wouldn't communicate much on an emotional level? I know from experience this is something I picked up from my parents, as well as my wife, and why our marriage is in rough shape. We're talking, and starting to 'piece' to save the marriage. We both turned to passive aggressiveness and anger to communicate, as well as sarcasm, instead of direct, honest communication.

Has he seen a therapist besides the MC?

[Painter]

Trumpet, thank you for your openness and insight. I think you may be onto something.

H's father was an alcoholic and verbally - I don't know if abusive is the right word, but he cursed and ranted, much like H does. H has told me that he remembers his parents argue loudly and he would go hide in his room. Which makes it so baffling to me that he would do it himself...

My father was an alcoholic, but he was not aggressive and I have made different choices (luckily I had a good therapist).

H has only seen the MC (and another one we saw previously, as well as one years ago with his exW), and doesn't 'believe in counseling' (even though he liked all the counselors). Unless he wants to do something differently, it really doesn't matter what I think.

I have asked him many times to express his thoughts and emotions, but he has a hard time with it. He has some interesting views on relationships... but yes, not being clear or saying how he feels or what he wants, then feeling victimized or angry. After the A, he was talking for a while about how he wasn't going to take it anymore, that he was going to stand up for himself. I don't know what that was all about, except that he clearly doesn't feel like he is expressing himself.

He's a complicated person. There are many things there that makes me scratch my head.

[Painter]

H and I are pretty much in the same place as before. I don't feel like he cares very much, but we get along okay on a daily basis. He spends a lot of time working on projects - but he always did - and we do not do any leisure activities together. I would like to, but he's not interested.

He talked about finding a place closer to where he works, but has done nothing to make it happen.

Sometimes we're closer - I may get a hug, and we may ML - other times it's more distant. I feel like H is the one who decides where we're at, he may feel I do since I sometimes say no to ML.

He's been distant since last we ML, which seems to be the usual pattern. I was going to give him a hug tonight when he went to bed, but he made it so awkward and seemed so uncomfortable I let it go. He was laughing and it didn't feel fun to me. He then tried to pull me in but I turned away and told him that I wouldn't attempt to get affection from him anymore, but he should not attempt to get me to ML, either - it goes both ways. It's not an ideal situation and probably about as far from DB'ing it can get... but I was hurt and felt the need to protect myself. H will make no move whatsoever to rectify the situation - he is very, very passive and has a fatalistic attitude.

On the upside, I am GAL'ing - with work for the most part, and working towards financial independence. It is going to take a little while, but I'm making significant steps. I have been so busy I had to drop a twice weekly activity that was getting too demanding, but on the other hand I have started working out! I can tell my mood is so much better on the days I go to the gym.

I treat H with courtesy and consideration on a daily basis. I'm able to start out each day on a positive note, and ignore most of his bad moods. We had an odd incident where he didn't understand why I was nice to him, and I pointed out that I usually am. My LL is clearly acts of service and gifts, and I keep doing those. I don't know if it would be any better if I stopped.

I know that H's LL is words of affirmation, and I try to do that even if it feels very unnatural - although easier than it used to.

On one side, I feel like I should read more in DR, revisit chapters, take notes, work on goals - on the other, I'm so sick of the whole thing I just want to forget about it. I feel like H and the M is already sucking so much energy out of me that I don't want to read about it, too. Anyone recognizing that feeling? Am I in some kind of a stage?

[Zues126]

I'm very surprised at some of this advice. Withholding sex? Encouraging him to get into counseling? Since when is DBing about trying to diagnose and control your partner?

I know how tough it is not to have your needs met in a marriage. Trust me on that! And I felt the same way you do, and acted some of the same ways your husband did. Funny, HE probably feels the same way you do believe it or not.

Painter, I'd encourage you to watch the three part series on "expectations in marriage" by andy stanley on youtube. 60 minutes in all. He says it better than I can.

If the only reason you're married is to get your needs met at all times consistently through the marriage, you can walk from him, but I don't think any relationship will be any different. Or maybe that man will be more affectionate, but there will be other issues. And you might end up with one that feels this way himself and leaves you for the same reasons. This is the real world, there's no happy ending out there, we make it ourselves by rising above this.

Beyond that you might find that you have deprived yourself of the opportunity to serve someone else faithfully. It's easy to think in an M that the benefits are what they do for us, but we gain a lot by what we do for them. Without an M you have no one to serve. That is a loss that doesn't sound like a loss, but turns out to be much more of an impact than we expect.

Not sure if you read my opening post on my latest thread 'black and white'. I'll cut this shorter than I normally do because I think Andy Stanley says it better than I could and I think you know my stance. Bottom line I'd say act as if God promised you that in 5 years you would have a fulfilling marriage if you did your part now. This also ties in to my latest post as well.

Vent away, but then step up and stand by your M!

[Painter]

I don't know why this worked (maybe because I said just one sentence and then left the room, it seems to work better than long explanations) - but this morning, the first thing H did, was come over to me with a smile, put his arm around me and give me a long, affectionate hug with no sexual undertones.

I'll take it!

Zues, I have read your reply a couple of times and I'm just not sure how to answer. I am definitely not in a M just to have my needs met all the time. It's been a one-way street with H for years, and that's why I'm not sure that our 'new' M is going to be very different than our 'old' M, in spite of the changes I have made through DB'ing.

[Painter]

So much for our progress. By total chance (didn't even think about snooping), I found e-mails this morning from OW to H, dated just a couple of days ago. He hadn't looked at them yet, and unfortunately I reacted before I had a chance to forward them to myself. He deleted them, but I have other proof (not saying what on a public board). They were very brief, one was just a picture of her, the other was just a link and a comment. Makes me think that they are talking on the phone, and this is just additional.

H insists he has not talked to her, just e-mailed a few times after he found out she was engaged (from me, it was on her FB-page). He claims she is engaged to someone else, I think she is referring to H, but if it is someone else, she's cheating on him, too! What a prize! I asked H, 'so that is the kind of character you want to have in your life, as your partner? Someone who is sending selfies to a married man while being engaged to another man?' He sheepishly said, 'No...'

I'm so disgusted with both of them. I am going to find a way so he can move out.

[Painter]

This is a difficult evening. H has gone to bed, he gets up very early for work. I spent the time before he went to bed in my bedroom with a headache. He acts like he's been wronged.

He was defending staying in touch with her, since the A is over, they should be allowed to be friends! After all, I'm friendly with one of my exes! (I talk to him on the phone once a year.)

H does this when he is confronted with his inappropriate behavior - compares it to something that a 6 year old would understand is very different.

I'm not angry anymore, so the energy that carried me forward is gone. Right now it feels almost unreal, like a bad dream. My stomach hurts and I want to cry, but I can't. I want to go in and wake H and shake him and yell at him how he can do this.

I have two days ahead of me with nothing on the calendar, I work from home and have to keep myself going. It's going to be hard.