WAS or what (3)

[roist]

Also worth mentioning.I got loads of compliments all through the trip.
Looking good.Look fit. Lost weight? Very calm and easygoing.... etc. Guess I am better than I think at coping. Plus I have huge smiles in all photos.

Yes I am going to ramp up my transformation into roiste2.0 and to make the most of life. I noticed during the trip that I seize opportunities more where before I may have hesitated and missed out.

I will not assume W missed me, but she did think of me at least. Obviously feel better that than nothing. Me I am not sure I missed her. I needed the break. I would have liked to have her there at times. Funnily I miss her most when weare together.

Thanks for keeping an eye on me and for your input Z. Good to see you more active on others threads lately. Don't forget to update us on you too.

[roist]

I hadn't planned snooping but came across a message W sent a friends. In it she basically said she is stressed, cries over littlest thing, has financial problems and that I swanned off for a week without any worries and didn't even ring her once. And that it was not unusual for me to not ring. She also said that she is sleeping terrible.

I know not to believe anything but I can see her being right on all counts.

Except I have been hyper stressed about finances and other stuff.But trying to keep a positive demeanor that may come across as carefree. I didn't talk much about finances etc as communication has not been great and I try avoided negative conversation. This feels wrong.

I was guilty of not being a great contacter when away. ESP when my dad was dying.I was annoyed at not being supported and concentrated on my dad. Now I know this was wrong but in following the rules it could be more of the same in my W's eyes.

Sounds to me like depression/mlc. Not that a label changes anything.

Originally one of my DR goals was to improve communication. But dropped that after advice here.

I still believe giving W space is fundamental but maybe I need to tweak some interactions.

I could have written a very similar message with the same truths about W. She didn't ring me either etc. I did ring kids twice at their grandparents though.

Anyway we talked a bit about finances last night. I said that we should work together on stuff like that instead of each stressing on our own. She said that is what we were doing (with this talk). There was no anger or agressivity when she spoke.

This morning she had a headache so I asked if it was because she was stressed.She looked at me and stated calmly that she wasn't stressed. I moved off the subject.

I think it is not a good sign if she does not give out to me for NC. That being said interactions have been OK. Whereas all indications are that she is fed up with her life and me, I felt strangely optimistic yesterday.Could be due to PMA book or just nothing.

Sorry for rambling but feel free to let me know yet thoughts

[Zephyr]

Maybe I missed something...I didn't think you were working towards NC: I thought that - your wife has not filed for divorce, you are living in the same house, you are working to strengthen your relationship with your wife, your 180 was be more open and honest with her, your goal is to have a more beneficial / complete relationship with your wife.

I think that we all see what is written on this site as the end-all process. You and I and a few more are certainly in a different category (maybe) than many who seek help here. We are not straddled with a battle with a woman who is clamoring to get out. Your wife has no idea what she wants or needs right now. I went through this exact same internal struggle bunches of weeks ago.

does your wife need space to make up her mind. YES
does your wife need the opportunity chose her path. YES
does your ignore or fight with you every time you open your mouth - NO, right?
She does not need someone to tell her how she feels. She does not need someone to push her. she does not need a father.

She could use a friend right now. It is the last place you want to be, I know...that place between a lover and a stranger. Listening to so many of the veterans and the discussions from DB Coaches, that is precisely the location that you have to be for this to work.

You are working to rebuild a foundation. That foundation cannot be a physical one like when we were kids starting out with a fresh love and relationship. That is not an option with you and your wife. If you are not going to fill this need of friendship, companionship or confidant then who will? there are others who would be willing to stand in for that position, I assure you of that, we both know what the implications there are. He is not the problem. He should not be occupying any more of your mind right now, he's not paying rent so don't give him the space. The problems are and have always been between you and wife. He may be a scumbag or a $hit head, or even a pleasant guy...who cares...he is not important to your life.

I am not trying to tell you what to do. I have made more mistakes in this, than anyone I'll bet. The whole while though, I have been true to me and compassionate for my marriage and wife. I have to be true to myself with boundaries that I will not allow myself to be hurt by her actions or the actions of anyone else. I will not be disrespected and that has been made clear. I have to be strong for my family, confident for my development as a man, and make myself truly a man a woman would be a fool to leave. I have to lead whenever possible, to show not only how I am willing to treat me wife for my children’s sake, but how I want to be treated as well.

My wife may not be willing to jump into bed with me right now. For countless reasons - she hates her body, she felt used for sex for years, she should want sex for her and not as a duty to me, she felt controlled into it, because she is mad at me about the whole friend thing, THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF REASONS. We can't make her want us right now.

Through all of this struggle till now, she texts me, she calls me, sits with me and is willing to talk more now than she has in a long time. I went through years of her wanting nothing to do with me. She now shows me affection in other ways - even a little physical (I've gotten some of the best, sensual kisses this last week than I've gotten in a decade). She has been supportive and demanding of respect ON MY BEHALF from my children. Helping more around the house, etc. It is taking time, a lot longer because I’ve made my share of mistakes, was holding on too tight, just expected things to get better – and oh ya she is a stubborn-assed irish woman, who holds resentment like it was gold.

We are building a new marriage out of the ashes of our old one. There needs to be a time from you to understand that maybe she needs someone to think of her for more than just a physical outlet from him. I realize that this may sound like a contradiction because so many women who actually break, go out and have an affair, I don't think that it starts out with them wanting to get laid. I think they have a need to feel like they are needed, useful, appreciated, worthy of intelligent conversation, respected for all they are, they need to be HEARD and UNDERSTOOD (that is my #1 failing all through my marriage - I've written at length about that and I have been working to fix that part of me).

Truth is we are finally starting to have fun together as a couple and as a family and hopefully building a future together. She deserves love and respect from me. How we showed our affection all those years was not the same as she wanted, this we now know. This is where all of the learning about love and love languages and how men and women differ starts to really come into play. And yes, eventually she will need to learn to understand how we would like to have my needs met too.

So what is she missing that you can provide her, while still giving your wife the time and space to explore who she is and what she has become, where she wants to be? What behaviors can you introduce into your relationship, where you do not compromise who you are and still show understanding and compassion for her and not pressure your wife? This is will allow a stronger relationship to blossom. I am not talking about catering. I am not talking about YOU stopping going out and doing your GAL, or living your life for you. This still needs to happen for your development and for you to help give her space.

From what I’ve read, finances are a big thing for you guys right now. Is there a way you can have more conversations where you listen more than talk, validate, ask her opinions, etc. You have gone through a long soul-search for your business, how much of that process involved your wife....as it sits right now that is still her livelihood too? I realize that it is your career, but unilateral decisions are just not going to cut it here. Her opinion should be heard in all of this.

The physical needs of a man cannot be understated, I know. I have actually had to say to myself...So let me get this straight, you are willing to leave your wife, soul-mate, companion and best friend, solely because she does not provide the physical affection and satisfaction that I need right now? Isn't that the crux of the problem here. We have called it a half-of-a-marriage, and I have heard this over and over again (hell I've said it how many times).

From a fundamental perspective, what does that tell my wife (even if I’ve never said it, I’ve felt it and that translates into pressure)...that I am willing to walk away from our life together because you will not have sex with me, even though she needs that space to figure herself out...that her needs right now mean less than mine, that her trying to work on herself is not good enough or fast enough. That is not an easy commentary to take on.

It comes down to this for me, is this woman worth it? PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION. Is she or isn’t she.

That is the decision that we all need to make. Not is this part good enough or not, ALL or NOTHING.

I will go back to something that Cadet typed my first couple of posts, what is she was in an accident, maybe there was a different context than this, but allow me to explain. If my wife had cancer and was unable to have sex with me for the next 3 years for whatever reason, would I leave? What if she were to be injured to the point she could never be able to meet my needs like that again? Would I leave? My answer is no. To think that she is punishing me or that this is a conscious choice is very short sighted on my part and have needed to really read so many women’s posts of their MLC / WAW / WHATEVER issues where they could not be touched by their husband to really START to understand the hell that they are going through with this. Mix in the possibility of things that have happened in their pasts that we may not be aware of or have not considered through this ordeal and their struggle begins to make more and more sense when we are told, ‘It has nothing to do with us.”

IDK, maybe I am back to bargaining again in my head. Maybe I've missed to boat for an iceberg. Maybe I am just phucking nuts.

All I know is that for the first time since I've gotten here, and really for the first time in my life, I feel like I am beginning to understand what Love is truly about. I understand what compassion and giving is imperative. Vulnerability is necessary to be able to love. We have to be receptive to be able to allow someone to love us. We have to allow ourselves the possibility of loss to truly love freely. Basically I lived my whole childhood learning how not to love, uugh.

I feel like I have not been fair to my wife with expectations that she should be ML to me simply because that is what I need right now. She can't and that is on her. She knows that I would love to have sex, but I certainly don't need to pressure her for that. All I know is that I owe it to myself to really focus on me and part of that is giving. Sounds stupid, but that is what I want to do. I am no longer depriving myself of things I want to do, quite the contrary…I’m planning nights out, I am working on hobbies and basement when I can, contributing to the community, finishing projects, I haven’t done a load of dishes in my house in two weeks (can I say Hell-YA and I don’t care to). I am doing my share, probably more than I should, but for now it is improvement and I don’t feel like I am being taken advantage of.

I spend so much of my free time with the kids playing games, coaching and helping with homework (even doing the holiday party at S10 class tomorrow). Point is I am living for me, giving her space and time to make her choices and do her thing – all the while showing her that I value her for all that she is.

Um, so wordier than I wanted, yikes. Sorry for such a long-winded post, I guess I needed to get that out.

I really am starting to like the path that I’ve forged. I know it is the right path for me. Where it leads we will see.

I still have hope. I still have faith. I still have me.

[Zephyr]

SO I just wanted to say, for anyone new to my sit or Roiste's who is reading, that I do not believe this is THE BEST SOLUTION for any situation.

I don't think that this will work if a woman is done, when she is ready to leave...the rebuilding of a friendship will only work AFTER that dust has settled and you have made improvements that are truly visible...not during this initial strife. I think that it will work against your efforts to let things move in the direction they need to.

I don't want to give false hope for forging friendship to be the end all, to someone who has not been able to DETACH, this is not an avenue to DETACHMENT. It will only serve to keep you thoroughly enmeshed and entwined in an unhealthy relationship with your wife.

Learning about yourself, learning how to detach, learning how to love and respect our self first and foremost, learning how to be a great parent, That is where we need to start DB. Learning how to properly DB, GAL, Setting Goals, 180's, giving wife space...is how we need to start our journeys towards healing. There are no short-cuts. This takes time.

sorry for that, just thought I should type a caveat so there is no confusion on my intent here.

[roist]

Careful Z, you are going to finish by writing more than me here!!!! I wish I could get my W to open up like I seem to do with you. Ha ha.A year ago I would never have been able to express my feelings like I can now. I have never been as in touch with my emotions. In the past I may not have been willing as I should have. But now I am willing and able to. BUT I can't because W has blocked that side of things.

As I stated early on this was a big thing my W needed from me and I was lacking. So reality really hit in when I tried to discuss emotions etc and for her to no longer want that. The only good side is that I now know what it is like to not have emotional needs met, which she probably felt for ages.

I don't have time to reply to all your point s but I appreciate everything you took the time to share.

At this stage stage the sex side of things is not my driving factor.It has been so long now that I can't remember exactly when was the last time.can't be far off THREE years. How the hell did I let that happen!?! Yes the physical is important for me but the smaller everyday things are what I crave most. Holding hands, cuddle, hugs, kisses for no reason, basically the basics of a normal R. But not just touch, I really miss the emotional connection, the trust, the surety of being there for each other. I guess I am saying I want to feel WANTED.

You have said some of that stuff before and I appreciate you remndibg me of your viewpoint. I am not aiming for NC. I guess I was following her lead and that's where it headed. I am not sure my situation is that different to others. Maybe W has checked out but cannot leave.

There are a lot of maybes including she does not want to lose me. I cannot mindread so I will just work on the basis of rebuilding R from the ashes. I will have plenty of time for lrt and NC if she drops her bomb.
It also made sense to me that W needs to feel she is losibg me. Guess i need to d?cide one path and be consistent.

No W does not attack me when I open my mouth. No she does not avoid me. No she does not criticize me. Yes she talks to me, yes she does eye contact most of the time. Yes, she stands up for me with kids.

When I sit down to do my roadmap towards roiste2.0 I will take out DR and relook at my R goals. I am not yet the man only a fool would leave.BBut he us on the way.

Is she worth it. I waver on this Q. Yes she is great and I want no other. Yes we could be great together. She is worth waiting for. But ultimately a time may come that I will be happy with who I have become and if that is not good enough I may have to follow my path alone. Without beating myself up, my W stayed all this time, even at worst of my depression.I don't owe her that but I want to give her more time. I once thought two years would be a good target, which puts me halfway.But now I am nit putting any timeframe on it. I doubt I could keep it up for another year, but who knows. I will take it step by step and next landmark is Christmas. I'll know when I am finished and until then that is fine.

Wow, seems you know how to get me talking too!!

[Zephyr]

Careful Z, you are going to finish by writing more than me here!!!! I wish I could get my W to open up like I seem to do with you. Ha ha.A year ago I would never have been able to express my feelings like I can now. I have never been as in touch with my emotions. In the past I may not have been willing as I should have. But now I am willing and able to. BUT I can't because W has blocked that side of things.

I understand this completely and I am sorry you are going through this.

As I stated early on this was a big thing my W needed from me and I was lacking. So reality really hit in when I tried to discuss emotions etc and for her to no longer want that. The only good side is that I now know what it is like to not have emotional needs met, which she probably felt for ages.

Probably, yes. Keep this in mind when there are opportunities to validate those feelings. Make a list because there are probably a bunch of these feelings out there that need to addressed .

I don't have time to reply to all your point s but I appreciate everything you took the time to share.

At this stage stage the sex side of things is not my driving factor.It has been so long now that I can't remember exactly when was the last time.can't be far off THREE years. How the hell did I let that happen!?! Yes the physical is important for me but the smaller everyday things are what I crave most. Holding hands, cuddle, hugs, kisses for no reason, basically the basics of a normal R. But not just touch, I really miss the emotional connection, the trust, the surety of being there for each other. I guess I am saying I want to feel WANTED.

So the big thing here is what makes you feel wanted and why. Why do we need that physical attention. I am not even remotely suggesting those feelings are not right because I would bet 85% of the guys here share THAT complaint. What I am going at is what can you do for yourself here. We need to feel whole and wanted and secure, keep your focus on you to figure THAT out.

You have said some of that stuff before and I appreciate you remndibg me of your viewpoint. I am not aiming for NC. I guess I was following her lead and that's where it headed. I am not sure my situation is that different to others. Maybe W has checked out but cannot leave.

There are a lot of maybes including she does not want to lose me. I cannot mindread so I will just work on the basis of rebuilding R from the ashes. I will have plenty of time for lrt and NC if she drops her bomb.
It also made sense to me that W needs to feel she is losibg me. Guess i need to d?cide one path and be consistent.

OK so the bolded sentence could have summed up my thinking when I first started typing yesterdsy...that was the point I was trying to get across with all of this $hit I typed...ha, I am terrible at being concise.

No W does not attack me when I open my mouth. No she does not avoid me. No she does not criticize me. Yes she talks to me, yes she does eye contact most of the time. Yes, she stands up for me with kids.

When I sit down to do my roadmap towards roiste2.0 I will take out DR and relook at my R goals. I am not yet the man only a fool would leave.BBut he us on the way.

Great. This is awesome idea.

Is she worth it. I waver on this Q. Yes she is great and I want no other. Yes we could be great together. She is worth waiting for. But ultimately a time may come that I will be happy with who I have become and if that is not good enough I may have to follow my path alone. Without beating myself up, my W stayed all this time, even at worst of my depression.I don't owe her that but I want to give her more time. I once thought two years would be a good target, which puts me halfway.But now I am nit putting any timeframe on it. I doubt I could keep it up for another year, but who knows. I will take it step by step and next landmark is Christmas. I'll know when I am finished and until then that is fine.

You WILL know. There won't be a decision or a viable choice anymore when you get there. The fact that you are not there yet and you are wavering back and forth sends signals. Let's keep that PMA up and keep moving forward with you as #1, cannot forget this part in all of this. Your happiness is ultimately the goal here. Think about all the tools you have now to get there.

Wow, seems you know how to get me talking too!!

Sorry about all of the posts, I can see the pain in your posts and I just hope for you to look in the mirror 5 years from noW and smile. No thoughts of regret, only happiness and contentment...that is my ultimate goal.

[roist]

Thanks again Z. Glad to have you offering advice, opinions and friendship. Don't apologize. Post away. I suppose my situation and feelings are similar to what you went/are going through. That maybe why you see my pain.

That is a great goal. I know I will be happy and content.I am not sure how but I am sure. As for the no regrets, idk. I guess there will always be a regret if it doesn't work out. But I will be able to look my sons in the eyes and say I did my best.

Just a snippet of info I may delete later. I am a stubborn assed Irish man!

[Dawgs]

She could use a friend right now. It is the last place you want to be, I know...that place between a lover and a stranger. Listening to so many of the veterans and the discussions from DB Coaches, that is precisely the location that you have to be for this to work.

You are working to rebuild a foundation. That foundation cannot be a physical one like when we were kids starting out with a fresh love and relationship. That is not an option with you and your wife. If you are not going to fill this need of friendship, companionship or confidant then who will?

I hope ya'll don't mind me stepping in here, but this is an excellent piece of advice. It seems that some forget that rebuilding friendship is first and foremost in many cases - after all, if the friendship isn't there, then how can the relationship proceed?

My wife may not be willing to jump into bed with me right now. For countless reasons - she hates her body, she felt used for sex for years, she should want sex for her and not as a duty to me, she felt controlled into it, because she is mad at me about the whole friend thing, THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF REASONS. We can't make her want us right now.

Zephyr, this may not make sense but this statement of yours just put things into perspective on my end. I have been struggling with this as my W says she isn't there yet. I never really understood how we could go from ML (well, it has been since Valentine's Day) to none. Your statement really helped me see things differently. Thank you.

I also want to bookmark your post because it really seems to hit home for me. Thank you again!

[roist]

Just journaling to get out some random thoughts.

I'll start with W, but that will be short. I still have not found my way to live comfortably with the rift that is between us. I am working on me as I'll outline in a minute. I know I need to take my focus off that but living it is not as easy as saying it.

W bought a wallet (possibly for me for anniversary)iit has been on her night table and then on my desk (in a plastic bag) when we slept in my office when we had visitors at the weekend. I won't mindread or assume but it is strange.

There are times when together when it is almost good. She shares funny stuff that happened etc. But overall things seem to have slipped again in the last few months. She spent time with her closest sister two weeks ago and they visited us last weekend.I thought she may have discussed us with her but from talking to sister I am sure she didn't.I did not pry but just my impression from things her sister said and asked me during the visit.

Last week I moved our wedding album off the coffee table where it had sat since she showed kids a few weeks back. It got moved back again. Not important but I found it strange for W to keep it out in open like that, considering........

This morning W seemed to wait for a moment I could not fail to see her putting o ring on wedding finger. She wears a ring a little over half the time when she is out of the house.

I could outline loads of good signs but overall things seem worse. At this stage our bed has two distinct imprints in the mattress. That says a lot .

I have also started a lot of work on me:
# I have reviewed previous goals and will carry forward revise or renew as required.
# I have started listening to a "reach your full potential"cd in the car.
# I am also over half way through a pma book.
# I have taken steps towards looking for more work for my business and also started the process of job hunting
# tonight W has a meeting so I hope to finish my plan for creating roiste 2.0. I already have my aims and need to put in place my action plan and goals.
# I was better focused at work but I just spent an hour on this site. I need to avoid doing that too often
# I intend to relook at the Q is she worth it. It merits attention and should not negate the Q am I worth it. The LBS has to put up with a lot for a long time.
# I have gone back to DR and am in conflict as to my best path to follow.DDetach, GAL, focus on me and give space are fundamental to both paths. DR recommends working on R, taking actions and evaluate.My recent evaluation tells me I need to change my approach. Either I go down the unconditional love (with boundaries) and really try rebuild R with love.Or I leave R alone, move forward completely and leave the rest to destiny ( which it is anyway I guess).
# Z made a good point about avoiding unilateral decisions and thinking. That is great in theory but either my comm skills are not adequate or W is nit ready, but I am not sure how to achieve that. Even talking about current financial situation does not seem open. We exchange thoughts or facts but don't seem to really discuss. Any sugestions?

Got to go. Love to hear any thoughts.

[roist]

Tonight time permitting I will print off Michelle's letter to WAS in an EA, plus some other stuff about EA's. I hesitate but may include all or part of Michelle's first chapter in DR. Michelle advises not to argue or rage on about a possible EA. Just give the info and let it go.

I have no imminent plan to give this to my W, as I am not sure it is a true EA and am fairly sure (without being nieve) nothing will develope. He could be a well meaning friend trying to help he with her terrible M! But I want to be prepared to act if a situation presents itself warranting action.

I am well aware and believe that OM (even just inappropriate friend) is not the teal issue. That is me and W.

The reason for this post is to get fellow DB ers viewon the merits of doing nothing compared to taking action. I hesitated starting a thread just for people to discuss this, but in the end I preferred to try keep any advice/comments specific to my situation. I see the merits of to gh love approach esp about respect. Doing nothing and letting W go through her "fog" at her own rate while working on me, is also logical.