Azzork said something very important that I want to go back to. It was difficult me me to A. "get it" and once I did, B. implement it. He was talking about detaching from the outcome. I could word it that "your actions aren't contigent upon a particular outcome" or "let go of the need to control outcomes".
You have to do something because you believe it is the right thing to do without expecting a particular outcome. One example might be where you offer a backrub to your spouse but don't expect sex. Or in the case of detaching, you don't do something in the hopes of getting a response from your spouse. You have to get to the point where you really don't care if your W does or doesn't do something based on your actions. They are your actions which you are repsonsible for and her reactions are what she is responsible for. We can't post links here, but if you search "detach from outcome", you will get some really great articles. One of them relates that to "how to let go".
H:54 W:46 D:11 D:21 M:12 BD:1/15 In-house Separation 2/15 DB started 7/15, W sees consistency 9/15 Dropping the rope and having her leave 2/16, moves 5/16 Reconciliation 1/17 Obviously still struggling
Man... my head is spinning...and it's not even because of my wife! It is because of DB'ing. I don't know which way is up suddenly. I thought I did, but I clearly do not. I think I was thinking about this incorrectly.
I am making my way through DR cover to cover this time at a fairly good clip. I am through step 2 but have a question about the goals mentioned in this step. It says goals should 'be positively stated and action oriented". OK.. fine (though I think there is something else missing there). Then there is an example which is almost my exact situation... the couple has been physically separated for 3 months with very little contact. The question is basically what will the wife start doing to show that their marriage is salvageable. The husband says one sign would be:
"Wife would call the husband once in a while to see how he is feeling"
Another would be:
The wife discussing a future with her husband included (paraphrasing)
Am I interpreting this wrong? Is it the engineer in me? How is this a goal when it's not in your control? This is a hope and what happens if those things do not happen? Is that your sign to move on? Maybe it will be clearer as I read through the other steps? Calling those things goals is throwing me off.
You can't force your W to talk to you. But you can do things that may encourage it. For example, that was actually one of my goals as well. So what I did was stop asking my W questions that could be answered with just 'yes' or 'no'. I asked her questions that she could engage in instead.
Things like that you can do. Besides writing your goals, write down how you are going to achieve them.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
I know, it is confusing and maybe comes down to our interpretation of words. Is a "goal" the same to you and I? Maybe, but yet perhaps subtly different. If you read DR, Michele says you have to have "a very clear picture of your ultimate goals and the signposts along the way". So the goals are your destination and the signposts are those measurable indications you are going in the right direction.
She also says "you need to translate your complaints into goals". So there is a good place to start. (A complaint of "I hate that she is sarcastic with me" turns into "she will speak to me with respect") She also give a big tip getting back to focusing on what works, "When my spouse isn't doing [thing that upsets me], what will they be doing instead. So...
ULTIMATE GOAL: Save my relationship (ah, but way to general!) SUB GOALS (though maybe really signposts) --- She will speak to me with respect --- She will wear her wedding ring again --- She will move from texting only, to calling me again --- She will agree paticipate in some events with kids and I --- She will call me once in a while to see how I am feeling --- Send at least one one-way text a week
You could replace "she will" with "I would like her to" if that helps make it sound more like a goal.
You are looking for actions that will describe what will happen when you are getting the relationship you want. What do I have to do to make something happen?
Yes, you are correct that some of the goals or signposts are things not directly in your control. But you can set action goals that help you elicit those signposts. For example the "she will move from texting to calling again". For me, my wife felt unsafe calling me. Her hierarchy was "can't even look at you, feel nervous hearing you on the phone, I will accept and send texts when necessary because that is the safest". That was pretty serious stuff. So my goals for this one:
1. (general) I want to improve our communication so she wants to talk to me again 2. (a little more specific) I want her to feel safe interacting with me 3. (more specific action/goal that move me forward) I will avoid all negative interaction in text 4. (more specific action/goal) I will call her at least once a week with something that is important and make it a short, positive experience so she feels safe 5. My signpost/goal would be that she picks up the phone and starts calling me instead of the tedious texting process.
First I had to realize why she was doing what she was doing regarding texting vs. calling. She didn't feel safe. She was afraid of interactions that would mean pain for her. Then I created the goals and stuck to them. The goals helped me remember what I was going for and to discipline myself not to use the old ways of arguing, judging, getting defensive, etc. And guess what? Within a couple of weeks, she was calling me. I can't tell you how good it felt when the phone rang and I saw it was her on caller ID. The calls became more and more frequent.
Again from Michele, "What is the very first sign that things are moving in the right direction?" The goals will be "positively stated, action oriented and broken down into manageable pieces"
How's that for an Engineers analysis of the problem? lol. Does that help you? Anything you can add to help others if you get it to make sense to you?
H:54 W:46 D:11 D:21 M:12 BD:1/15 In-house Separation 2/15 DB started 7/15, W sees consistency 9/15 Dropping the rope and having her leave 2/16, moves 5/16 Reconciliation 1/17 Obviously still struggling
Thanks Flight and Bond for the detailed responses. I get the concept and I like your break down of signpost vs goal. I always read about goals on here and to me a goal is very specific, measurable and completely within my control. Like you say, "I will avoid all negative interaction in text".. that is definitely a goal. "She starts calling me instead", a signpost. But too me, a goal has an expectation associated with it and a disappoint if it is not achieved. I cannot be expecting my wife to call me and become disappointed when she doesn't. I think that is the opposite of DB'ing. I guess it is just semantics, and I understand the concept so I can move past it.
So in my case, what is the goal right now? Of course the ultimate goals is to have a happy marriage with my wife. That is so far out of the picture right now, I cannot make specific goals directly related to that. The only goal I have right now is:
For my wife to contact me uninitiated in anyway (ie phone, IM, email, text).
If I am going with NC, then I guess there are not any sign posts. She either does or doesn't. If I am occasionally contacting her then signposts that she might be warming up could include:
1. Her actually replying to my contact (signpost) (how sad that I even have to have this listed... ugh). 2. Her continuing the conversation after it has seemingly stopped (signpost) 3. Assessing her tone and attitude (ie cold or warm) (signpost) 4. Being confident in our interactions, sticking to DB philosophies (goal) 5. Being the one to end the interaction (goal)
I guess I need another goal that would describe how and when I would attempt to make contact. I would have to think about that one.
But how about in other areas. If your only goals are related to improving contact with your W, then I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
How are you going to use this time to grow as Pinn?
I agree with Azzork and I would love to see your goals being all about you....okay maybe one about your M can sneak in there...but I think you will set yourself up for disappointmnt if you make your goals all about your R. This is an unasked for opportunity for you to grow...don't miss out on that my friend
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
Thanks Azzork and Sotto. I think I should have been more clear in my post above.
I have personal goals I think listed in the old thread and I have been doing well on those. Those are actual goals that are within my control (need some new ones though). I have not even thought about any relationship related goals until now.
The above posts are strictly talking about the concepts in Divorce Remedy. I was trying to apply the concepts described in step 2 to my situation with an example. These are not my only goals... heck I do not even know if these will be goals or not. I am trying to figure it out. To me most of the 'goals' in the above post are not even really goals. I am trying to understand the concepts outlined in the book so I can apply them.
If this is the one I think it is,Michele is counseling them (although the W refused to go). She is asking the H what he would see his W doing if she believed the M was salvageable. It wasn't him setting the goals, but like many H's have asked.......how can I tell if my W is interested again?
Then the H needs to think what action he can do to show his W the M is salvageable, then break it down in smaller steps. In other words, it goes back to working on himself and keeping the big picture in focus.
I can see in some places in the book how a reader might interpret some things differently.
Last edited by sandi2; 10/30/1511:47 AM.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!