Answer to: "why didn't you hear it from ME?"

[Flight]

I know I still need to work on detaching. I still let my moods get affected by hers.

I believe she was being nicer to me because she felt my GAL and not pressuring her meant I had "moved on". When she got back from her trip and wanted to talk about "being able to date". I explained my boundary about if she wanted to live here with me, my boundary was we don't date other people. If she needed to, she could leave or we could sell the house. She has been really struggling after that. The other day she was getting flustered because I was going to change my plans and it meant I would be home. She obviously had something going on because she reacted almost violently to that and said, "you need to honor your committments!!!" I replied, "Like you?" That go her goat!

So she is back to not looking me in the eye, or even looking in my direction. So I guess part of the roller coaster, it really seemed to be getting better there for a while.

Not sure how to handle her back in "I feel trapped" mode and talking about selling the house because "if that is your condition I need my freedom to live my life how I please. I don't have any plans to date, but I am a grown woman and can do as I please without it affecting my living arrangements" We were supposed to have a talk and I agreed, but she didn't have it with me.

[Flight]

Re-Reading all my posts since the beginning really helped today. I started out not wanting to get out of bed but wound up feeling energized and wanting to do things for myself. Interaction with W was fine, she texted me about things coming up for our D and when she got home late after meeting a friend, sat on the couch with me with D. I didn't care one way or the other. So for today anyway, not letting her influence my mood. How are you Sorgan and Rai? I try to find you on the other threads too, but there are so many posts, that is about as overwhelming as my sitch

[Flight]

Saw my IC today. Great session. I brought lots of notes. She was right on point getting me to see a few things, like where detaching needs to be for me and to see if going with my core beliefs was more going with trying to rebuild connection or going scorched earth Turns out that detaching can still be loving. I shifted my goals just a bit to honor myself and while still buildingn a connection, I will detach more and not interact with her unless she interacts first. I will enforce my boundaries. And my other goal is actually to respect her boundaries give her the space to figure some things out for herself. I think sometimes the best thing you can do is to get out of their way so that they quit focusing on you and have to look at themselves in the mirror. If I see her as a hurt little girl, I wouldn't go grab her and try to pick her up. I would squat down to reduce my stature, maintain a distance, speak softly and be reassuring.

Sometimes just creating a different image in your head of how you see someone and their actions can give you a calm attitude that allows you to just back away and observe. "She isn't trying to hurt ME, she is trying to protect HERSELF", "She isn't angry, she is hurt and afraid". "She doesn't feel safe and I can give her the space to be able to relax without me there to pressure her".

Still working on the detaching thing and basically spent the entire evening out doing what I wanted to do, including a men's night after IC. She was asleep when I got back. Tomorrow when we both work from home together, I will have as little interaction with her as possible other than if we cross paths to say hello. She can eat lunch alone. I will get my work done and let her see by action I am confident and productive

[Sorgan]

Good to see you are still progressing buddy, and thanks for asking about me.

Continue to woek on yourself and making you happy. That helped me stabilize, once I was happy with myself and who I am I could not worry as much about my W and look at her as more of being along for my ride of life and if she wants to get off the ride thats her choice, but my ride will continue.(I'm bad at analogies. Lol)

Keep ip the good work buddy, I still pray for you and wish you the best.

[sandi2]

Sorry I missed your post, until today. I wrote a really long post, and then lost it. I was trying to answer some questions you had asked. Basically, I was telling you that she's not the person you married. She's changed. She's wayward, and you can't use the same techniques you would use if she was just an unhappy or depressed wife. You can't treat her as your loving and faithful wife....b/c she's not. She's a different creature, now. So far, you are still thinking of her as the girl you M. You have to be tougher, b/c a WW is tough. She leans from consequences and loss.

Your WW has had very little reality to hit her. She has continued her EA, and what has she experienced as any consequences to that A? Yes, you are in-house S (which really isn't S at all), but didn't you agree only b/c of the other options?

She's contacted her OM and it must have been promising, to her, b/c now she's ready to go forward with everything. Wasn't long ago that she was trying to stall. Almost everything in the MR can be measured as to how things are going in her A. I can almost promise you that if she was dumped tonight by OM she'd change her mind, radically, about going forward.

Two things a WW will use the most often in manipulating her H. That is guilting him or accusing him of controlling her. Whatever works to cause him to relent to doing things her way....she'll do it.

I have yet to see the first story where an in-house separation has successfully worked in saving a MR, when a wayward spouse was involved. At best, the couple resides in limbo throughout the M. I believe it's b/c they don't know the ground rules (or should I say, "house rules"). They can't act as though they are truly separated b/c they aren't. That.....and the fact the H puts up with her b.s. far too long. That's the one way a WW gets everything she wants.....the way she wants it. The comforts of home, a working H, financial security, family benefits, on and on the list goes. She has all the advantages of M, without the disadvantages.

I'm really sorry this has happened to your family. I believe you still have time to turn things around, but in order to do it...you must change the dynamics.

[Flight]

Thank you Sandi. I am really working on, and getting advice about, detaching and consequences. To some degree, there are not many consequencies to breaking a boundary. The LBH has some areas that he has very little power. "One of the conditions of remaining here is no seeing OM". First, you would have to be snooping to find proof of the A, second, what could you do? Can't kick her out in my state. And you don't want to cut off your nose to spite your face, like leaving the house which would not be legally smart. So I need help with consequence ideas.

Lately, I have detached more. I am not available. I have also started going out often and leaving her to babysit. I don't ask her where she is going and I don't tell her what I am up to. If she says she has a problem that I am not required to help with, I tell her I hope she figures out a way to solve it.

One true last resort would be to go through the process, even now before the holidays of finishing the S agreement, having her explain to D what is happening, and putting the house up for sale. There can be no greater consequence than that.

When she loses her temper, that is when she tests me with "well, if we can't do it my way we will just have to sell the house (or whatever). But later, she doesn't really want to do that. She hopes I will believe the threat and allow her to cross a relationship boundary. When I don't, we go back into holding pattern mode.

You are right in that when I told her family, there were consequenes. She was upset with me of course, but she couldn't control the story because they had too many facts. Looking bad in their eyes is still resonating with her. But she rebels against that too, "I don't have to care what anyone thinks, they don't know my situation" and "If I tried to reconcile, then you would look like the suffering martyr who took his whore wife back!"

[Zephyr]

Flight, the biggest consequence of all would be for her to lose your friendship.

Really, security and home and all that will be established in Sep agreement.

Your companionship, comfort and friendship is something that cannot just be replaced like that. Deep down I believe these women know that. I could be wrong, I know it happens from time to time.

If they truly believe that you will not be their friend till the wnd, it may actually spark the change. This cannot be a tactic or a game. If you want RI enforce your boundary, you must protect yourself. Besides friends don't treat each other like she has treated you...you get what I mean.

Please go back and reread Sandi's WW thread , more than once if necessary. Print it out and take notes about how it affects you and your spouse.

We are here for you...you can do this?

[Flight]

Actually, I took weeks since this board is so active and cut and pasted many of Sandi's posts going back to 2007, I believe. I posted a few from others as well. The hard part is having specific examples of what to do or not do in a given situation. I know there is the general "she fired you as her H, don't be available", etc. But I would think since waywards seem to be reading from a script there could be more "when they do this, you do that".

Also, each situation has some uniqueness. If you believe some other sources that state there are different types of affairs, like "my marriage made me do it" and the "exit affair", and get Sandi's take that a W in an A or EA is different than one who is just tired of you, then you have to examine your sitch and get in the mind of your spouse.

I feel like she could have left EA or no EA. Things have been degrading and there were unhealed hurts. I kept fighting for attention not realizing that my arguing and blaming were pushing her farther away. Then my best chances were those first 3 months, but I didn't know about DB. And I was a traumatized, scared, reactive mess.

With little things, I have to make the choice to be nice and try to connect or offer "tough love" and the choice isn't always clear. We share chores. So if she soaks the laundry and forgets to turn the washer back on, then texts me to nicely ask if I could please turn it on, do I say "sure" or, "sorry, you fired me as H and we are separated, remember?". There are a dozen little things like that every day that have me wondering and second guessing myself.

I am noting more of what works and doesn't work and pulling away more. Hard for me not to be my friendly, joking self. I have started to sort of live my life like I am single, minus the dating.

[Uphill]

Flight, I feel this post ^^^^. There are so many of us that early on when it was easily salvageable, we do the wrong things. Dig our holes deeper. We are in a mindset that if we correct any complaint we have heard over X amount of years... Magically everything will be great.

In my situation, I thought everything was going great. We had our small arguments over seemingly petty things. Then came "I'm not happy". She vented about all these once again seemingly petty things again so I went on a mission to make sure my socks went into the laundry and were not inside out. I made a point to not take on overtime at work, be more affectionate. All that stuff. Problem is, by the time those words come out of their mouths, they feel like it is over and we drive them away faster because in thier mind "see how easy that was, why didn't you do it when I asked the first time". Makes it look like we didn't care before? Not true, but it looks that way.

We spend so much time looking at these things that we don't sit back and look at the big picture. These issues are deeper but the way it is said to us puts our focus at the wrong places.

WAW, WW, MLC, all the same. Different but the same. They are "done". We need to work on us (easier said than done). They don't care at this point if we can juggle 8 balls that are on fire, one handed, while standing on the other hand and twirling a hula hoop on our leg. They won't look our way at this point.

Be the best dad ever. Be the best flight possible. Live for you.(there again easier said than done) and that my friend, will make you a person that only a fool would leave. One day that will shine bright, and maybe in the end we are lucky enough to get what we want? A new R with W? A new R with somebody new? Who knows.... But we will one day have that choice and will be able to take on the world and have anything we want in life!

Just my .02 but I got of on a ramble. Best of luck buddy!

[sandi2]

Just to share a few of my thoughts, FWIW.......I have been making this statement lately, the majority of the LBH'S on the board seem to be the nice-guy type of men. Just as wayward women seem to read from the same script, so do the nice-guy LBH'S. I really have wondered if the men were not the nice-guy types, if the W's would ever go as deep into her waywardness. That's not to say he is to blame for her decisions, but women, by nature, are responders. If she is showing disrespect, she is responding to those feelings toward the one she disrespects. The women who are the biggest b'tches, usually have a nice-guy H. She gets away with treating him badly, b/c he won't do anything about it. My advice is to read two books. No More Mr Nice Guy, and Hold on to Your NUTS. If you see yourself in those two little books, then you will understand that you are the only one who is able to change that part. There have been many men who would not take the tougher love route b/c of the fear inside of them. Some may try to disguise their fear by using other things as their reasons/excuses in resisting the more uncomfortable DBing methods.

Actually, I took weeks since this board is so active and cut and pasted many of Sandi's posts going back to 2007, I believe. I posted a few from others as well. The hard part is having specific examples of what to do or not do in a given situation. I know there is the general "she fired you as her H, don't be available", etc. But I would think since waywards seem to be reading from a script there could be more "when they do this, you do that".

Oh my, 2007! There was a man here during that time who went by the name of Puppy Dog Tails. He later became Starsky. If you will find his old threads, I think maybe the summer of 2007, I think it would benefit you. He is the number one guy for giving you the ABC's in how to respond in any given situation. I think he hangs around the infidelity section. Maybe you could flag him down.

IMO, the H of a WW needs to work from the point of her lack of respect for him as a man, as her H, and some cases.....as the father of her children. When a woman loses respect in what we would call a "normal" MR, it usually takes years before the waywardness takes over. In other words, he hasn't done just one big thing to lose her respect. It has been an accumulation over a period of time, and in many cases, an ongoing specific area that eats away at that respect.

Regardless of the type of affair a W has, it is the epitome of her disrespect toward her H and their M. If she wears the pants in the family and he just goes along, hoping to keep her in a decent mood......well then, how does he think she'll respect him enough to end an A? If she can talk disrespectfully in front of the kids, roll her eyes, undermine his place of leadership....etc., etc., why would she give up something she likes (i.e. an affair).
See what I mean?

So, work from that lookout point. If she speaks to you, or through the children, disrespectfully, you need to call her out about. If she does it again, then I'd say you need to set a boundary. "Wife, when you speak to me in that tone of voice, I feel disrespected. If you continue to use that tone of voice, I will _______________". (Fill in the blank). The responding action must be from you. You cannot force her, controll her, or punish her. However, if your action has no consequences for her at some level, then you might as well blow in the wind. It may be you leaving the room, or hanging up the phone, etc., but her consequence would be that you removed yourself and she could not scream at you (or whatever she was doing). I do think your action should be measured by the particular dispectful act. For example, you wouldn't say, "Wife, if you express loud sighs when I try to talk, I will divorce you". Make sense?

To me, having a wife's respect is much more important than her "friendship". If your status is in-house separation, then I assume your goal is to eventually reconcile the MR. Most nice guys want to pursue a friendship.......and I can understand how logical that would seem. Most WW's want to be friends with the LBH. However, the two have completely different ideas what that friendship entails. So again, I suggest your energy goes to getting back the respect as the man. Once you have her respect, the friendship will be a snap. BTW, you can be friend-ly in your interactions, just don't be her buddy while she's in an A.

Finding a middle ground seems to be difficult for many H's. For example, if she calls and nicely asks you to push the button the washing machine, you would say, "Sure, no problem". However, if she starts leaving a list of things for you to do around the house.........thus freeing up her time or whatever........you would not start acting as if you were the unpaid house maid. If she calls you and ask if you could stop on your way home and pick up some milk, b/c she's cooking dinner and it would save considerable time........you would agree to do it. But you would not start being her errand boy to run do this or that every day. Not when it is something that she could do. That's how nice-guys get into these kind of traps where they are taken advantage of by the W (and even others). The WW is motivated by selfishness. Some, more than others, but most have a selfish reason for doing whatever they do. Just bear that in mind.

Yes, she has fired you as her H, but there are a few things you would do for a complete stranger......b/c you are not a jerk. That is what you need to divide in your brain, if you can. At the moment, you may need to think of her as if she was a boarder (not a roommate) renting space in your house. See if it helps you find balance in the interactions.

Learn from your mistakes. Don't repeat them. Don't complain to her. Learn how to state things as coming from a strong and confident male.

The more you panic, the more she will pull away. Think of it like a dance. You step back and it draws her body toward you. When you step forward, she steps back. The last time I checked, they still referred to the man "leading" the dance moves.

This is a long post, so I will close this one. If you think of a particular situation, tell us and we can talk about it.









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