Where to begin? Part 2

[Dawgs]

Hi Thornton!

Yeah, I guess it is a bad idea. There are times when I want to tell her things like that, but I know how much of a bad idea that can be.

It has been a while, but in the worst of it my W has said that if we don't work out then she wants to be the best of friends. That is something I wholeheartedly disagree with. If she files, I have no intention of being her friend, buddy, pal, whatever. To me, we either will be married or just acquaintances. If she brings that up again, do I tell her that? Or just wait?

[sandi2]

First, you are reading Codependent No More, which is good. May I suggest that I think it confuses you to believe you and your W are "working" on the M? B/c you are codependent and may not readily see how the ^^ two work against you. Let me give an example:

Yesterday she had off for the holiday, so she asked if we could do some stuff together. It was a nice day. We went out for lunch and did some shopping and also a bit around the house. I kept all relationship stuff out of it. Just a really nice day.

To you it was probably thought of that you were working together on the MR. Am I right? Yet, it was cake-eating for her. She has a S but gets to enjoy a nice day with her LBH, shopping, going out for lunch, doing things around the house, etc. Thus, causing confusion for you, or supporting your codependency. (Just my viewpoint.)

I have done some serious soul searching lately and always come to the same conclusion - my biggest fear is losing her. You see, for 10 years (married 7) she has been my best friend, lover, confidant...everything that a "soul mate" is supposed to be.

It sounds real sweet, and I think most married couples in a healthy R would share those feelings. At what point does it cross the healthy boundary and get into codependency? I have seen so many nice-guy types who come here as the LBS. Many of them seem to have developed codependency over time. So, I hope you will continue to work hard to overcome this unhealthy problem.

I am not afraid of growing old alone, but I AM afraid of growing old without her.

How do you see the difference in the two?

I haven't spoken with a L yet. I made an appt but cancelled when she backed out of filing and stated that she would rather do the separation route to see where that leads.

I see your point about getting it all in writing, but I am so afraid that if I bring the papers first that would just push her over the edge and past the point of no return. Given her mental state, that may be the final push.

You are repeating LBH script. They say they are afraid of pushing WW over the edge. Know what you are doing? You are thinking like a man. That's not how WW's think.

When she screws you over with the finances, controls who has the kids and when, the property, child support, etc., then you'll see why we tell people to just go get legal advice. It doesn't mean you have to file for a D. It doesn't push her over the edge. However, it usually has the reverse effect on a WW.

I just don't know if I have it in me to take that final leap.

Why not start being more proactive about your life, instead of depending on her answers or reactions? Doesn't mean you have to go file. Just stop depending on her to make all the choices for your life.

I really think we got to the root of why I am been so pushy/clingy... It all stems from childhood. Imagine that. Sigh.

Doesn't everything?

*Last week in our couples session, the counselor (she also sees us independently and is mine, too) suggested a time frame in during our separation to sort of see where we are - like 6 months or so. My W, when asked if she agreed, really looked like a deer in headlights. She literally was dumbfounded and couldn't answer (reminded me of when I confronted her about the EA by waking her up so she couldn't form an answer). The counselor was perplexed. She thought maybe the W could possibly just be set on D and trying to let me down gradually.
*The counselor also said (during our couples session) that during our separation - since we are still married and "working" on us - that we shouldn't see other people. I agreed but it almost seemed as if the W slightly balked a little. We discussed that...

Well, sure your W balked. She is wayward. You and the counselor may see it as both of you "working" on the M, but your W doesn't see it the same way. No, she won't say it....but she has a different point of view. She sees "you" working on the M....not her. A WW will not S in order to have a time frame of working on the M. Instead, they want a time to pursue the affair. If the A doesn't progress to their satisfaction, then the WW will use the LBH as her backup plan.

*We discussed a little about me finding the receipt which showed her "toys" being shipped to a friends house. The counselor stated that since the receipt wasn't really hidden in the drawer, it may have been done purposely for one of two reasons: 1) Trying to trap me into saying something and then accusing me of snooping so that she could have an excuse of being done with it and filing; or 2) Putting it where she did was sort of an unconscious way to letting me down. Her question was "If it isn't one of two reasons, then why didn't she just throw it away at the friend's house?" Interesting indeed.
*We also discussed that friend to which the "toys" were delivered. A lot of questions there. She took particular interest that the week of our session (3 weeks ago) where the W said she was filing, that the W picked the same friend up and brought her to our house to watch the kids and then drove her back to her house, some 20 miles away. The counselor suggested that sounded very odd and that there may even be something going on. Especially, since a few months ago my MIL called the W and asked if she was a lesbian...OUT OF THE BLUE. However, the counselor has a plan to deal with that which will leave me out of the discovery method if in fact there is something shady going on.

Look, women will cover for each other when they are friends. A woman's girlfriend will babysit, let WW use her house to meet up with OM, lie to the LBH, let packages with sexy underwear or toys be shipped to her address, etc.

Have you ever....EVER....seen or heard anything to lead you to believe she could be gay or has thought about experimenting? Have you said anything to anyone where it could have gotten back to her mother?

At any rate, we discussed our situation a bit which is something we really haven't done outside of counseling. It all started when she mentioned something about our annual family vacation to our favorite place - mine, hers, I guess used to be ours, and the kids... She mentioned that she wanted us all to go, as long as we still understood our separation. I told her I would think about it and get back to her in a bit.

Extremely common for the WW to want (even expect) to have her S/D and continue to share in family vacations, trips, holiday traditions, family events, etc. It's called cake eating. She wants the best of both worlds.

That talk led her to say that we are separated and in a platonic relationship. She went on to say that the separation/space is necessary for us to work on each other, and to also work on us and see where things go.

WW script.

We never did have any talk to sort stuff out as I posted about earlier - guess it never came up or she was just enjoying things. She did make it a point to really talk about the house and what she wants to do with it - although earlier she had said that if we do D, then I could stay in the house. I have to learn to not read into things!

[quote]That was probably the best communication that we have had in a long, long time. I told her so and thanked her for it. She seemed to really agree.

B/c you didn't disagree or challenge her on anything.

I find myself wanting to tell her that our old M is dead and that a new and better one is there for the taking. Would that be a bad idea?

Yep, it's pursuing.

[Dawgs]

Thank you, Sandi, for another round of help and kick in the pants when I need it!

Sandi, may I ask you for more advice? The more I think on things the more I see you are correct. For example, we did a family day trip over the weekend to a place our kids love. We all had a great time. I mentioned on the way home that it was a nice time and she agreed, although I couldn't tell if it were from her heart.

When she talked of the family trip, she said that she wanted to reiterate that we are separated and that she didn't want me to give false hope or the like. She texted me about the trip and I answered by saying something like it will be fun and who knows where it will lead (I realize now I shouldn't have said that), to which she answered right now she isn't looking for things to lead anywhere.

I want to think that the EA is over and has been for a while, especially when I told her I won't share and to choose. Due to her job and travel times to/from work, I am pretty sure that there isn't an A as she is home fairly early enough and on the weekends she doesn't go out, or take "extended" shopping trips (really, no shopping without us), or the like.

I am trying so hard to follow everything. I don't text (as I said a little while ago, I keep a journal of what I want to text, which eliminates that need), call, email, or the like. I am nice at home and show her that am not moping or the like. I am really working on my confident self, too. Getting back to where I was when we met. Maybe I am too nice of a guy...

Have you ever....EVER....seen or heard anything to lead you to believe she could be gay or has thought about experimenting? Have you said anything to anyone where it could have gotten back to her mother?

Honestly, I have never said anything about being gay to anyone...I would be too embarrassed to even do that. Thinking back, I am not sure on seeing anything. I mean, she keeps cutting her hair shorter and shorter - almost boy like now.

I do, however, think my W is in the midst of a MLC. Here is why - less than a month after BD, she buys a jeep, gets younger clothes, etc. Even "talks" differently - saying things like "sweet" (which she never used to do) or even cursing more. When I mentioned "what was that" she stopped talking that way... Is that a sign of a MLC?

[Dawgs]

Do I seem like I am on the losing end? After reading what Sandi wrote, I am having serious doubts about things. I just don't know what to do anymore. I have detached to the best of my ability and our separation is kind of odd given that we live together until she goes to her new base. I don't text, email, or contact unless necessary.

Is it normal to almost realize and accept that my M may very well be over, but at the same time want nothing more than for it to work? I want this to work so bad, but at the same time it almost feels as if my shoulders have been unburdened, if that makes sense.

Do I go on vacation? I know that every situation is different, and ours is quite odd, but I do desperately want to believe what she says.

Its funny, I can give advice on here but I can't even seem to follow my own. Also, I find it very helpful to me just to help others.

What do I do?

[Thornton]

I would bet a years salary that she is stilling talking to EA. Even if she's spending time with you.

Does she take her phone with her to the bathroom? Does she put her phone face down when she lays it down on the table/nightstand? Is her phone on silent mode?

I think you need to stop doing stuff with her, E. I know that's counter intuitive to what you want to hear. I am codependent as well. I've read all the books, done the workshops, and even went to Codependent Anonymous meetings for a while.

You are dependent on her for your sense of self worth. She knows this and uses it to her advantage. Just like Sandi said, she gets to string you along while she figures out how to safely determine her next steps.

Start doing your own thing, E. Let her feel your absence.

[sandi2]

I do, however, think my W is in the midst of a MLC. Here is why - less than a month after BD, she buys a jeep, gets younger clothes, etc. Even "talks" differently - saying things like "sweet" (which she never used to do) or even cursing more. When I mentioned "what was that" she stopped talking that way... Is that a sign of a MLC?

Could be, however, the visible signs you've given run parrell to a WW.

Do I seem like I am on the losing end? After reading what Sandi wrote, I am having serious doubts about things. I just don't know what to do anymore.

Oh my goodness, ^^^ that made me cringe.

Your stitch is not odd, at all. Have you noticed all the in-house separated people on the board? Btw, my H and I did not argue/fight either, b/c he simply would not do it. So, even though your stitch seems unique to you, it really does not appear different to us.

I did not mean to upset you. I just wanted you to see a few things from this old former WW's point of view. I understand how you would feel that you are doing everything you know to do. And, that is why I pointed out several things.

Let me inject, however, that when newcomer LBH'S attend MC or try to mix DBing with some other techniques from various authors of books, programs, etc., it can cause confusion for the newcomer. Right off, I questioned your MC. However, if she's hired to give you both face to face advice as a couple who says they are working to save the M.....then she may be advising as though you were reconciled. The work you need to do during the walk-away to the reconciliation period.....is quite different. Make sense?

Your W agreed to go to couples counseling b/c she felt it was unfair to you, if she didn't go. To me, that is not with the same heart as wanting to actually do the necessary work to save the MR.

Anyway, I think you could fine tune some of the things you are currently doing. For example, contacting W only when necessary. What constitutes necessary. I know most everyone says "the kids", but what about them? Why do you have to contact her that it could not wait till everyone is home? Discuss it in the evenings or before leaving for work.

The biggest thing I am seeing currently, is how you serve her cake. Again, if you can't see how she wants the best of both worlds and how what you are doing is not changing the stitch.....then I don't know that what I say would matter. If you have read all the threads on the WW, then it pretty much covers it.

Detaching is all about how you think. I hope you have not skipped over the detaching link. Honestly, I doubt you will experience DBing detachment as long as you have so much fear of losing her and living without her in your life.

I do not believe couples counseling will work while she does not want to commit. You could attend IC, but I think it is a waste of time for her.

Vacation? Do you mean with, or without her?

[annab74]

Do I seem like I am on the losing end? After reading what Sandi wrote, I am having serious doubts about things. I just don't know what to do anymore. I have detached to the best of my ability and our separation is kind of odd given that we live together until she goes to her new base. I don't text, email, or contact unless necessary.

Evil_E, we are dealing with something similar here. H is getting orders in three months. H has his own apartment, but is here a lot working on the house to get it ready to sell when he leaves for his next duty station. S17 is graduating from high school this year, so we are sticking it out here until then, but will probably return to my hometown afterwards. It makes for a very awkward situation though because H comes and goes like he lives here. We can't get enough space between us to make him miss us, but we don't get any quality time together to make him want to stay either.

[Huddy]

Don't mix DB with anything else. When I first got BD, I read a lot of stuff online. Some of it was contradictory. I tried nice. All that got me was a kick in the balls, so give that a miss. In the end, I read sandi2's initial posts, before I joined the forum, read a couple of other sitch's, and found that actually, I wasn't the only man on the planet that this has happened to and that most of the stuff on cadet's homework, fitted my W to a tee.

I tried a MC session with my W. It was a disaster as she thought they were all against her and for me. 'Fawning' is how she put it. So, don't go there until she has made a commitment to be part of your M.

I don't contact my W during the day. I don't think either of us actually wants this, but, you've got to think 'why would I want to contact somebody who doesn't want to be with me?'. That's when it clicks in to place.

Keep at it.

[Dawgs]

Does she take her phone with her to the bathroom? Does she put her phone face down when she lays it down on the table/nightstand? Is her phone on silent mode?

Actually, it has been a long time since she has taken the phone into the bathroom with her and she doesn't put it face down, either. Her time on the phone has decreased a good bit. Sometimes late at night when she is asleep or before she gets up I will push the button just to see and there haven't been any messages for a long time.

I think you need to stop doing stuff with her, E. I know that's counter intuitive to what you want to hear. I am codependent as well. I've read all the books, done the workshops, and even went to Codependent Anonymous meetings for a while.

I know. I never ask to do stuff as she is the one who suggests things. I know I need to stop all of this but its just so hard.

[Dawgs]

I did not mean to upset you. I just wanted you to see a few things from this old former WW's point of view. I understand how you would feel that you are doing everything you know to do. And, that is why I pointed out several things.

You didn't, Sandi. I value your answers because you tell me the unvarnished truth. I need that. Thank you. I will continue to have questions if that is ok with you.

Anyway, I think you could fine tune some of the things you are currently doing. For example, contacting W only when necessary. What constitutes necessary. I know most everyone says "the kids", but what about them? Why do you have to contact her that it could not wait till everyone is home? Discuss it in the evenings or before leaving for work.

I agree. lately I haven't been contacting her at all during the day. I know I used every excuse to text. But, I have been keeping a journal - every time I get the urge to text, I would right what I wanted to say instead of actually texting her. I find that to work very well for me. And who knows, maybe if we reconcile it would make a nice gift.

Thank you and please keep setting me straight on this rocky road!