PP's WAW Adventure Continues - (8)

[Vanilla]

My view on abuse is very straight forward, it stops, it is completely unacceptable. I am very clear on that.

I also divide this into three categories (based broadly on research) the first type of abuser is systemic and systematic, abuse is a permanent part of the personanity, it was there when you met the person who is your partner and there when it's over. This type of abuser abuses because they like it, it gets them what they want in life. My basic stance on it is NC forever. However targets of this type resist knowing they are abused. What eventually happens is a spell break a two hour indimidating rant, throwing things, hitting a child and stealing cash from the bank all of these are present in posts here on this board. That is then a step too far and abuse is seen for that which it is. The abuser is then forced to be nice for a while, and the cycle restarts. The spell break is the culmination not a single incident. This type spends a lifetime abusing and does not stop moving from target to target.

There are other types where the abuse arises from situations including feeding addictions. These can deteriorate although generally onice the situation is resolved, then the rift heals. This takes work, in my opinion it depends on the depth of the addiction as to whether the R can take it. I include As in this. I reserve judgement on MLC as I don't understand it.

Reactive abuse is in response to being abused, I am quite open in saying that I became a screaming banshee. This is abuse, I do not excuse it and I stopped it. It will never occur again of this I am determined. My buttons may never be so pressed.

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You asked me several complex questions.

Firstly not all addicts and compulsives are abusive. Some are open about their addictions, leaving spouses to decide. Alcohol is a real problem, even when alcoholics drink at home and especially with children. No child should grow up with an alcoholice in the house. This is an ACE indicator. For the non addicted parent get the kids away from drugs, alcohol and porn.

Gambling causes financial damage and deprivation and deteriorates family fins very fast. Other addictions can be slow burn to precipice.

The addiction is not the damage, it's the lies, deception and ultimate sheer gaslight ingredients that a compulsivery engages in that damages. I have heard many horror stories ranging from stealing from dementia parents, taking jewellery and selling it, pretending a burglary. To selling a 13 year olds innocence to raise money to gamble. Truly horrible stuff to continue the addiction. Out of control.

Gamblers can be jailed for theft, alcoholics for driving whilst drunk or antisocial.

Addicts can be addicted and also be abusers. Sadly to maintain addictions situational abuse can arise.

So in my book, the type of abuse, the addiction itself and it's duration and intensity all contribute. In fact is the addict in twelve steps and recovering? The path of a spouse of a gambler and alcoholic is a very hard one, balancing the needs of a family for the other parent and ceasing to be with an addict because they enable the addiction. It is a different path to the compulsives path and the loved ones of compulsives have the right to recovery. As an addict reaches acceptance or realisation, the loved one is just beginning.

12 steps is one of the few ways to hold an R together, both parties are healing separately.

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As for me, this has been a period of enormous growth. It wasn't the compulsion or the addiction that caused my pain, and truly I did not enable. It was being the deliberate target of a systematic abuser. I say deliberately targeted to be abused by a man who enjoyed abusing me. This is very damaging and I suffer from all the PTSD signs similar to living in a war zone. Flashbacks, panic attacks and being out of body. Illness, tiredness, depression and fear. A great deal of fear. All of which is new.

I did not choose to be abused, I was chosen. I am not an LBS, I am a WAW, like your own. The difference is the abuse type, your abuse is by default situational. You are a recovering addict for the rest of your life, WW knows this, one drink and the addiction takes hold again. A big risk for WW. My WH is clearlying systematic and no doubt will abuse again. He will abuse anyone and will no doubt target someone who has resources.

Do I think non compulsives should 'suck it up' and 'put up and shut up'. If they have no dependent children then it's their choice, if they have dependent children then absolutely not where the compulsives behaviour is damaging, the children need protecting.

It is the non compulsive who steps up to the plate and says enough. Boundary breached, treatment or no R, recovery or no R. Both need help to recover. Systemic abusers will not get treatment although they may pretend it. They like abusing and it's successful for them, they see no need to change.

I made an attempt to put a scoring system in place for this, I have never seen one anywhere on my travels and there could be a reason for that.


It is my own feeble attempt to make sense. I created 6 levels of abuse. If there is physical abuse then the R is done and over witH. I have never seen any R recover permanently from it. The abuser or addict needs jail time.

In fact the most cycles of gambling addiction I have seen an R recover from is 3. An R is rarely maintained if the gambler will not recover, D is the only option even if it does as that protects family assets from creditors. I only know 1 R with a compulsive gambler in active addiction and the couple can't marry because of debt.

In your sitch you are in recovery and WAW is likely still struggling with the aftermath of your addiction. She will recover in her time not yours, and she may choose not to be in recovery some do. It is very hard painful work, and loved ones get very angry at the damage done by addiction. Blame them for that? Occasionally then the counter abuse is reactive.

Remember this post is my view and at gammon I am considered a softie on the gamblers!!

I have a great deal of respect for recovering compulsives and their spouses. This really tests an R. Abstaining is not recovering. 12 step, IC, meditation etc is recovery.

In your sitch, returning to alcohol addiction is likely to mean no healthy R. A very sobering thought indeed.

PP know this you are remarkable. Let WAW recover at her pace, remember your own journey, she has the same one to make. Try understanding not punishment, I sat in one open session to hear a GA member criticising his W because in his opinion he had drawn his line in the sand and she had to accept it and get over it. It was past, really? The debts will go on for ages. She (his W) must stop bringing it up, wanting to discuss it, it was over. This W had stood for him and their R. She left him, that very night. She walked, and my goodness was this guy angry at her.

V

[PigPen]

Thank you V, that's quite a lot to write out. I'm still sorry your H was the man he was, you deserve so much better.

I do understand the addiction side of my WAW, I truly do. I know she is not trying to punish me in any way and is walking her own path free of me.

PP

[gonegrl]

PP, I know lots of people who can go 30 days without a drink. Including me. About half my friends. (rough estimate). A lot of people just don't drink. I think for a lot of people its just a non-issue.

Also I am wondering. H drinks every day. Since about 2 months pre-BD he went from drinking maybe 2x per week to daily. At what point do you say someone has an addiction? I believe he is self medicating for the depression, but what is the risk of becoming an alcoholic?

[PigPen]

Photo, thank you for chiming in. So much of our views are subjective of our own communities so I appreciate your perspective. It still surprises me when I meet people who do not drink and do not drink regularly. Just about everyone I know does on the regular and I'm in the fitness world!

As for your H, I would imagine that the stress of knowing BD was coming is a big part of this. I also started drinking every day for about a month pre BD, and it wasn't my B to D! I felt that something was wrong but didn't know what to do about it.

For me, the definition of addiction is when you are using any substance or activity to cover up and/or avoid the reality of a situation. Also in that definition includes using a substance or activity knowing that the results are not what you want but being unable to stop.

I personally was not a big drinker, "every day" meant two or three beers a day at most. But, I needed those two or three. I went out of my way to get them, and wasn't comfortable without them. I also drank them on days when I specifically didn't want to, such as Sunday nights when I had to be up early on Mondays.

There are levels given in addiction especially with alcohol. Many people abuse alcohol when they are going through tough periods, such as a D, a move, a job transition, etc. They may not be alcoholics and once the stress resolves, they naturally stop drinking as much or at all.

There are also people that if they have a drink tomorrow will wake up in a ditch or in a car accident three weeks from now and have no recollection of the time in between. They are addicts in the truest sense of the word. Your H doesn't sound like this. I am not like that.

However your H may be developing a dependency that can lead to more issues down the line. This was the way I was headed so I dropped it all together. Why not use BD as a chance to create a significantly more present life? Hopefully your H gets to this point.

All of the above is my opinion Photo, I'm not an addiction specialist so you may want to reach out to someone that knows better than I.

PP

[Vanilla]

PP, I know lots of people who can go 30 days without a drink. Including me. About half my friends. (rough estimate). A lot of people just don't drink. I think for a lot of people its just a non-issue.

Also I am wondering. H drinks every day. Since about 2 months pre-BD he went from drinking maybe 2x per week to daily. At what point do you say someone has an addiction? I believe he is self medicating for the depression, but what is the risk of becoming an alcoholic?

I hope you don't mind me hijacking here.

Addiction is about losing control over the substance or behaviour. That can mean 'needing 2 beers' every day. Such a person isn't seen as an alcoholic but they are, others drink and just don't some days even tough they have more.

There are fascinating studies on drug addiction, it is estimated that 60% of American soldiers in Vietnam took drugs regularly and one would think that on returning there would be a huge drug issue. It didn't happen. The reason is threshold, addiction arises at threshold. Some of us have high thresholds for addiction, others low thresholds, the issue is do we overstep the threshold. The level of the threshold, is determined by genetics, epigenetic and environment. There seems to be a lower band and an upper band level.

What we do know is that once the upper band threshold is crossed, the person becomes addicted. We know that aborigine tribes lack physiological control over an enzyme called alcohol dehydrogenase and have the lowest threshold of all for alcohol addiction. Even tiny amounts cause addiction.

As I see it from PP description he was compulsive (lower band threshold) heading to upper band addiction. At some point decided enough and started recovery. Both types compulsive and addictive have to cease the substance or behaviour completely. Each exposure episode takes the person to the upper threshold quicker with more concentrated substances and behaviours. An alcoholic will switch to spirits for instance, a gamblers max bid goes up. The fall is quicker every time.

The answer is if the drinker goes out tonight do they know if they can stop? A drinker who bends every few months is just as alcoholic as the evening drinker on 2 pints, if neither can do without or stop.

Some substances have a lower threshold than others, heroin is more addictive than meth, meth lower than weed. It's a generalisation though, individual physiologies make a difference too. The mechanism with porn isn't understood.

I hope that explains my view. No one really needs substances to change state, why bother? If our hormone systems are maximum our nutrition clean then we can fly on our own body state. I do, get a great trip on your own body.

When I had cancer I had a pain killer that was heroin based I didn't become addicted, had no withdrawal. I stopped it with no problems, never craved, others are not so lucky. Small doses had great effect.

I no longer drink alcohol at all. Coffee was harder to give up and sugar was a nightmare, true detox.

Alcohol is a depressant and it depletes nutritional status. Drinking even a little bit will intensify depression. So extreme self care in stress switches, super nutrition and no alcohol or cigarettes.

V

[Vanilla]

Thank you V, that's quite a lot to write out. I'm still sorry your H was the man he was, you deserve so much better.

I do understand the addiction side of my WAW, I truly do. I know she is not trying to punish me in any way and is walking her own path free of me.

PP

PP, I really see that. Thank you for your bravery on this, there will be lurkers and posters who will read your dynamic and a realisation moment may arise.

It has become very clear to me that this can be important.

I also wanted to juxtaposition your posts with my WH to demonstrate the difference that acknowledgement, change, growth serenity and sobriety make to a sitch.

You and WH are miles apart. This is part of my journey and I hope is useful to others. In that way, my sitch offers insight, yours great hope and resolution.

You too deserve much more. We need not be sad or lost because our lives have meaning, it is our spouses who are hurting. I have said before and I say it again, I think your WAW loves you very much and she has her own journey to make. She enabled your dependency and the dynamic of your R has changed for her, she grieves your old M as much as she disliked your distraction with substances. It is a shame she hasn't been exposed to 12 step for her own recovery.

As Cadet says this takes time. You have the gift of time.

You absolutely know V is a fan?

V

[PigPen]

I know you're a fan V, I feel it in all of the posts you've written for me and how much guidance you've sent my way despite having an H with similar challenges to mine.

I'm a fan as well. I really am sorry that your H turned out to be such a problem. I hope someone comes along that's worthy of your time and gently sweeps you off your feet.

Today Lady V, I hit my 9 month mark of sobriety. Truthfully, if it weren't for my little phone app I wouldn't have known. It's the way that I'm going to live the rest of my life so I don't really feel the need to keep counting. But it was a pleasant surprise on an otherwise depressing day so I'll take it.

So many thanks and hugs to you dear V,

PP

[mutatio]

2510 days or 6 years, 10 months, 15 days I have been sober. I've had my fill and I found no answers at the bottom of a bottle. I don't miss it and don't think less of anyone drinking. I am done self medicating and want to look life square in the eyes.

[Fogg]

Grats on 9 months PP, I know you can keep that going. Keep staying awesome.

[PigPen]

2510 days or 6 years, 10 months, 15 days I have been sober. I've had my fill and I found no answers at the bottom of a bottle. I don't miss it and don't think less of anyone drinking. I am done self medicating and want to look life square in the eyes.

Amen Mutatio, that's how I feel as well. Just had dinner with a friend who asked me about whether I'd just go back to drinking beer and not smoking pot. I told her I was done with living unconsciously in any manner. I'm turning 40 in a few months and feel like the second half of my life needs every bit of me.

You're an inspiration my friend. When I read your post my first thought was, "That's badass"

Here's to locking eyes with life till our last breath.

PP