It's Monday and time for a new thread. Last weekend marked the 9 month mark of my antiversary and things seem to be heading quickly towards the completion of a divorce.
I exist in two very different worlds still - one where I'm sober, excited for my future, and living a healthy, present, self actualized life. In the other, I'm still heartbroken and think and dream of my W on a daily and nightly basis.
Life is a mix of both worlds, some days are all in one, some days are all in the other. Some days they flip flop every 10 minutes. All in all, most days are exhausting.
I'll post the last two comments from my last thread as Wonka and V had both posted great thoughts about whether to have dinner with my WAW or not. I declined her offer but will see her tonight for Operation Dog Swap. She has become more available and open since filing for D, but is still moving the D on with efficiency.
My goal is to continue on the path to becoming the H only a fool would leave, every time I learn something about that process it makes me realize how much I still have to learn. I'll put myself down as a very bright 7th grader who is determined to get a Ph D. The road is long but I'm committed to walking it.
As always, thank you to all of you on this board for your support, wisdom, and guidance. I would not be the man I am today without you.
PP
M 39 W 36 T5 M3 BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day Served 9/15 D finalized 6/17
I have a different view than Lady V and Asitis in terms of telling W maybe can consider being friends in the future. That will not work in DBing because she will not feel true loss of the friendship. You don't have to be an a$$ when you convey it to W. I would frame it as "friends don't do this to their friends." Sandi reports being shocked into her senses when her H told her that he won't be friends after D...same with with Starsky and CaliGuy.
If W tries to rope you into a discussion about the dinner invite declination, just state calmly and firmly that you are not being comfortable being buddies with someone who is ripping apart a family and actively trying to block you from seeing your kid. This is not what friends do here. Again, I would state matter of factly that you will not be friends with her after D and that this is the path she chose without any consultation from you.
M 39 W 36 T5 M3 BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day Served 9/15 D finalized 6/17
Usually I would agree with you more than 100% but in this sitch I think it is slightly different.
PP has had very serious addiction problems which he has bravely overcome to recover. He has attended a 12 step program. This is tough on spouses especially in the addictive phase, I know this as my WH was a compulsive gambler, smoker and now unrecovered alcoholic.
Also a WAW is a different dynamic, even if W is now dating.
A very hard line stance I believe in any compulsive sitch isn't going to be healing. From my experience with spouses of compulsives the first step to healing lies in friendship, the spouse of a compulsive has to be sure that the compulsion is gone for good. Leaving by a WAW in those circumstances is very different, more in sorrow than anger.
The WAW hasn't seen friendship at the point of walk away and therefore I believe won't even think about missing it. In fact that kind of R is so damaged that missing it is the last thing you want the spouse of a compulsive to feel. Those memories of being with a compulsive and the R are best left to be a part of the story. The compulsive often has to over atone to repair the R. Very few WAW would offer an olive branch once away from a compulsive, it's too risky.
More power to PP for the obvious changes he has made, instead a light neighbourly friendship with I have more work to do on PP sounds right to me.
Friendship is a great start to a new R.
Just my 2c.
V
M 39 W 36 T5 M3 BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day Served 9/15 D finalized 6/17
Thank you V, I do still owe you answers to your questions and haven't forgotten.
Operation Pooch Swap went without incident tonight. So much so that it was kind of depressing in it's own right. That may sound odd after everything I've written, but it just is. I gave her my dog, a quick hug and that was it. She asked me a logistical question about the next swap that I answered and it was done.I got back in my car and left like I'd given a friend of my Mom's a package that had been delivered to the wrong house. This is not riveting reading I'm sure for you DB'ers.
I would imagine after having the dinner turned down my WAW didn't feel the need to ask me anything nor tell me anything about herself. Although this interaction was expected it still seems so out of place. I can't believe I've shared my life with this person and now we both act like polite strangers. I may be sulking a bit in this post.
Ok, I'm sulking a lot.
I'm home in an empty apartment and still have so much emotion around my WAW. I didn't got into her house to avoid seeing my old furniture and anything else that could upset me. Even though it's been nine months and a lifetime of growth, it still pains me so much to see her, and see where she lives.
Tomorrow I'm going to remind myself to have faith in the bigger picture, to believe in the plan that my higher power has for me, to trust in the universe, and to use the time without my pup to my advantage.
Goodnight DB'ers.
M 39 W 36 T5 M3 BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day Served 9/15 D finalized 6/17
Usually I would agree with you more than 100% but in this sitch I think it is slightly different.
PP has had very serious addiction problems which he has bravely overcome to recover. He has attended a 12 step program. This is tough on spouses especially in the addictive phase, I know this as my WH was a compulsive gambler, smoker and now unrecovered alcoholic.
Also a WAW is a different dynamic, even if W is now dating.
A very hard line stance I believe in any compulsive sitch isn't going to be healing. From my experience with spouses of compulsives the first step to healing lies in friendship, the spouse of a compulsive has to be sure that the compulsion is gone for good. Leaving by a WAW in those circumstances is very different, more in sorrow than anger.
The WAW hasn't seen friendship at the point of walk away and therefore I believe won't even think about missing it. In fact that kind of R is so damaged that missing it is the last thing you want the spouse of a compulsive to feel. Those memories of being with a compulsive and the R are best left to be a part of the story. The compulsive often has to over atone to repair the R. Very few WAW would offer an olive branch once away from a compulsive, it's too risky.
More power to PP for the obvious changes he has made, instead a light neighbourly friendship with I have more work to do on PP sounds right to me.
Friendship is a great start to a new R.
Just my 2c.
V
V, I have a question for you. Which compulsive issues would you view as needing to end a marriage over if you didn't see change?
Cheating? Porn? Gambling? Marijuana? Video games?
Asked another way, what percentage of the population do you think is compulsive in a way that would cause you to end a marriage?
I've been wrestling with this the last few days and have posted a lot on another thread (linked though I'm sure you've seen it).
I'll admit that I haven't gone through the horrors of living multiple decades with a spouse that is totally destructive either. Just trying to get my head around this. In the old days people kept their marriages together through all kinds of calamities listed above. Now it seems that popular opinion is that there is a certain bar that people have to clear or someone walks. Were those folks foolish to stay in those marriages and raise their families and turn the other cheek to preserve a lifelong partnership? Is it up to each individual for them to decide for themselves based on how they feel? Or is there something about compulsion in general that eliminates someone from being worthy of having a partner?
Again, I know your sitch and have read your contributions to the abuse threads as well. You've literally had to rebuild yourself and retool yourself to defend yourself against his words and actions, and your own thoughts and habits. I am truly not judging you for your behavior, I am sorry for the pain that you endured and don't know I could've done what you've done. I think the reason I have a hard time is that, as Sunny says, I apparently struggle to see shades of grey. Are all compulsions case for D, or are there certain 'acceptable liabilities' that could be worked around for the sake of retaining a family?
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Hey PP, I just posted an update in my thread (finally) and noticed your latest post. I think of you quite often. Honesty and openness are two of your best traits, among many others.
As you are well aware, I have done my share of sulking, too. We all know divorce is one of the most devastating things one can go through. I'm not sure I can say at exactly what point I became "Mr. PMA" (LOL) but it changed my life for the better. Big time! I have probably tripled my circle of great friends (mostly thru Meetup Groups), feel great about myself--maybe better than in my entire 55 year life and feel good about my future. It's taken me almost one full year but I've made it.
I KNOW it's not easy, but try to turn the negative "sulking" energy into positive. How? That's the tough part but you are a smart guy and will figure it out. For me, GAL really helped--along with people such as you in our DB Family.
So, what are you going to do to turn the negative energy into positive? How about getting involved in a charity? (If you are, I apologize--I have a lot of catching up to do.) Live, laugh and list all the good things in your life. For now, focus on that. It's such a cliché, but tomorrow is a new day. Right?
You know I love you like a brother. Work on yourself--you cannot control the situation.
I'll swing by as soon as I can. In the meantime, you will be in my prayers.
Bob
Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS) M:14 yrs T:15 yrs No children together--3 each from previous marriages Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14 Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14 Divorce Final: 10/21/15
About 5% of the population has one compulsion or another. In total because of overlap that is one in eight. In other words 3% of the population has two or more compulsions. Smoking, food and gaming are excluded from the stats.
They split into two main types- behavioural and substance. The most common behavioural compulsion is gambling (and fastest on the increase of all compulsions) and the most common substance is alcohol.
Of the addictions these two have the highest recidivism at 85%. Gamblers attending Twelve Step have three episodes before they give up gambling for good. Most gamblers end up divorced, some multiple times. This is because gamblers behaviour destroys an R, they spend the family resources and damage goes well into recovery. It can take a lifetime to recover from gambling binges and in most jurisdictions bankruptcy isn't possible for debts of a gambler as it's seen as deliberate.
Alcoholics do better as long as they are not cross addicted, and they most often cross addicted with gambling. Many alcoholics are functioning alcoholics for a long time. The damage is usually with health issues and their partners often stay with them once that occurs. In fact of all the addictions alcohol when stemmed has the highest recovery, immediately the drunk stops drinking the home sitch, fins and health improve. Alcohol can be used to medicate depression but is itself a depressant.
The stats on drugs is very stark, they deteriorate very quickly once they hit hard drugs. Of those in treatment few survive. Many drug addicts have addicted partners.
All compulsives with addictions suffer serious withdrawal. This is also a dangerous phase for an R. Compulsives do best in a 12 step, Rs are maintained and survive if the addict is supported in a 12 step anon group by their partner.
Working 12 steps for life maintains R.
I don't have stats for porn and know very little about it.
I maintain that involving WAW in 12 step, seeing you collect a pin in open meetings is beneficial. Hearing therapies will help her to understand what a remarkable achievement recovery is. I mean recovery not abstaining.
Abstaining seems to assist some compulsives although for many the compulsion emerges in another form.
Gambling is the most studied addiction for stats because of debt management. Alcohol affects children the most and triggers more antisocial behaviour. This is my view based on experience.
The Intel available on R is hard to come by, and is largely limited to serious cases, it often doesn't count the walking wounded.
More men than women are compulsivery although that is changing. The most addicted groups are men 20 to 30 and over the age of 55. Men outnumber women in 12 step by 6 to 1.
Other than this I have no info.
Is that helpful?
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Hey PP, I just posted an update in my thread (finally) and noticed your latest post. I think of you quite often. Honesty and openness are two of your best traits, among many others.
As you are well aware, I have done my share of sulking, too. We all know divorce is one of the most devastating things one can go through. I'm not sure I can say at exactly what point I became "Mr. PMA" (LOL) but it changed my life for the better. Big time! I have probably tripled my circle of great friends (mostly thru Meetup Groups), feel great about myself--maybe better than in my entire 55 year life and feel good about my future. It's taken me almost one full year but I've made it.
I KNOW it's not easy, but try to turn the negative "sulking" energy into positive. How? That's the tough part but you are a smart guy and will figure it out. For me, GAL really helped--along with people such as you in our DB Family.
So, what are you going to do to turn the negative energy into positive? How about getting involved in a charity? (If you are, I apologize--I have a lot of catching up to do.) Live, laugh and list all the good things in your life. For now, focus on that. It's such a cliché, but tomorrow is a new day. Right?
You know I love you like a brother. Work on yourself--you cannot control the situation.
I'll swing by as soon as I can. In the meantime, you will be in my prayers.
Bob
Thank you Bob, it's so great to read of your personal progress and happiness. I'll admit that I'm still stuck in the anger phase of this process. I thrash around at night turning my bed into a battleground and wake up with so much rage.
The weight room helps, surfing helps, but at the end of the day I'm one second away from being consumed by it. I'm not sure if I'm more angry at my WAW or at myself. Or just at the situation itself.
I know I am to blame. I know my WAW had other options than leaving. I'm angry that we're both not together. I'm angry that we have to have attorneys figure out who gets our dog. I'm angry that I'm angry.
Mediation helps, journaling helps, and keeping the thought that this will pass if I'm honest with it helps too. I wish I had your PMA though, you are a freaking rock star.
Big hug to you Bob,
PP
M 39 W 36 T5 M3 BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day Served 9/15 D finalized 6/17
About 5% of the population has one compulsion or another. In total because of overlap that is one in eight. In other words 3% of the population has two or more compulsions. Smoking, food and gaming are excluded from the stats.
They split into two main types- behavioural and substance. The most common behavioural compulsion is gambling (and fastest on the increase of all compulsions) and the most common substance is alcohol.
Of the addictions these two have the highest recidivism at 85%. Gamblers attending Twelve Step have three episodes before they give up gambling for good. Most gamblers end up divorced, some multiple times. This is because gamblers behaviour destroys an R, they spend the family resources and damage goes well into recovery. It can take a lifetime to recover from gambling binges and in most jurisdictions bankruptcy isn't possible for debts of a gambler as it's seen as deliberate.
Alcoholics do better as long as they are not cross addicted, and they most often cross addicted with gambling. Many alcoholics are functioning alcoholics for a long time. The damage is usually with health issues and their partners often stay with them once that occurs. In fact of all the addictions alcohol when stemmed has the highest recovery, immediately the drunk stops drinking the home sitch, fins and health improve. Alcohol can be used to medicate depression but is itself a depressant.
The stats on drugs is very stark, they deteriorate very quickly once they hit hard drugs. Of those in treatment few survive. Many drug addicts have addicted partners.
All compulsives with addictions suffer serious withdrawal. This is also a dangerous phase for an R. Compulsives do best in a 12 step, Rs are maintained and survive if the addict is supported in a 12 step anon group by their partner.
Working 12 steps for life maintains R.
I don't have stats for porn and know very little about it.
I maintain that involving WAW in 12 step, seeing you collect a pin in open meetings is beneficial. Hearing therapies will help her to understand what a remarkable achievement recovery is. I mean recovery not abstaining.
Abstaining seems to assist some compulsives although for many the compulsion emerges in another form.
Gambling is the most studied addiction for stats because of debt management. Alcohol affects children the most and triggers more antisocial behaviour. This is my view based on experience.
The Intel available on R is hard to come by, and is largely limited to serious cases, it often doesn't count the walking wounded.
More men than women are compulsivery although that is changing. The most addicted groups are men 20 to 30 and over the age of 55. Men outnumber women in 12 step by 6 to 1.
Other than this I have no info.
Is that helpful?
V
I'd say the stats are high Lady V. Not that you're not accurate, but how many people do you know that can go 30 days without a drink? I don't know many. Or they'll do it and then on 31 get blind drunk.
Porn is probably the most underestimated addiction IMO too. You don't show up after lunch smelling like porn so it's easy to hide, but it's everywhere and guys are ingesting it on their phones, tablets, and computers. There's an entire generation that has had porn at their fingertips 24/7. It's insidious. Plus if you ask most guys about it they'll say, "Every guy looks at porn." Doesn't make it any less dangerous though.
Zues, I've asked myself the same questions you asked. My addictions were well known by my WAW. I drank with her, I got stoned with every member of her family at every family function. Her parents would gift me marijuana! It was just part of our lives.
That doesn't make me immune to looking at my life and saying, "Ok this is out of hand, I need help. She's asked me if I'm ok and I'm saying I am when in my head I'm saying that I'm not." I'm an adult and should have been honest and asked for help.
Addiction is so hard on the spouse, I understand this completely. Plus it completely takes us out of being present. COMPLETELY. No matter what the addiction is or how honest you are about it. That I own 100%.
M 39 W 36 T5 M3 BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day Served 9/15 D finalized 6/17
