Alligator Love

[Ancaire]

Judy, come on down. There are enough alligators to go around.

I'm really not joking. I want to take a break for a year after all this is finished and done. I'm looking for affordable coastal areas so I can continue with my health goals. Florida, Mississippi, and Washington state are all on the short list.

[SunnyB]

I'm looking for affordable coastal areas

Cross Miami off that list, it has a lot of things going for it, but affordable isn't one. However, the west coast of Florida has a lot of reasonably priced places and the beaches are beautiful over there.

[Zues126]

Zues, you had said

"But I also know what I expect others to bring, and appreciation instead of criticism is the price of admission."

You have sort of contradicted yourself a few times. You also said :

I don't really show my appreciation for her, any more than she shows her appreciation for what I do.

And you said you do appreciate her, but in the same breath you only show it as much as she does, and in your opinion, she doesn't.

Someone has to be the catalyst in showing mutual appreciation and understanding. Ill give you a bit of a personal example.

As you know, my ex an have been divorced/separated for a long time and I am the primary care giver. I do it all, make the money, do the school stuff, doctors, dentist, activities, pay the joint bills (with his half of the money). I preface what I am to say with that, because between the 2 of us, there is no man makes the money, woman cares for the house and child role.

I have gotten zero appreciation or thank you's over the years. Nothing. Probably only criticism from him. meanwhile, whenever he has a responsibility, he usually messes it up. Unless it's a big deal, I don't confront. And when I do, I do it with understanding and explanation.

I made a promise to myself that even if I don't get appreciation, and only criticism, or abosultely nothing, I would still put forth my appreciation when it is warranted. Even if I don't get it back.

Finally, after 7 years I asked him for some schedule switches and explained why. When he made it happen, I thanked him for his flexibility. He finally said " I appreciate all you do for D8"

It meant a lot to hear that from him. And I believe my appreciation towards him when he does deserve it, whether or not I got it back from him, fostered that statement.

I am awfully wordy here, but someone has to be the catalyst. You get back what you put out there. It's hard in the beginning because feelings are raw. Criticism stinks, but is sometimes vital, it's what we learn from, but I agree it needs to be constructive. And in the stage she is in, she may not be ready. I know your method is to get rid of her like cancer because she made you feel less than good and unappreciated. But perhaps putting out there what you want to get back might go a long way.

Hey Ginger, thanks for the post.

I don't feel I contradicted myself. I was saying appreciation and a non-critical attitude towards me was the price of admission to remaining emotionally close to me. I didn't say I wanted that from STBX!

STBX ended our M and destroyed my family. She has crossed boundaries for me that have her removed from my Christmas card list. It's not that I want a warm relationship with her and am hoping she acts differently. I want no relationship with her at all, and I have achieved that. I'm not critical towards her, I'm simply not appreciative towards her. I'm just very detached.

I have no idea if she desires appreciation from me for what she does at a mom, that would be odd to me since she fired me as her H. I am not emotionally supporting her at this time. I'm not trying to withhold or punish, I'm simply not willing to be emotionally engaged with someone that would make the choices she has.

[Zues126]

Did she get the court to agree to that custody setup? Not a father-friendly state?

The problem isn't really how this backtalking impacts you, but how it impacts the kids over time. You will probably not get an accurate representation from them of everything that was said. They will downplay it to you, or possibly use it for attention.

I've seen this exact scenario impact hundreds of divorced families over years. And I know how much you will hate it when your in-a-few-years teen daughters talk down to you in Ex's voice... Your reply to them already indicates that this is a problem, IMO.

She's probably not going to listen to you, but a co-parenting class has been very helpful to many. It's something about when it comes from a counselor...

I'm in MN. It isn't father unfriendly. STBX has simply built a case that it's best for D4 to be with mom more right now and that S11 has 'adjustment issues' and is going to counseling for outbursts of anger so it would be 'best for him' to stay with her during the week. My L says that we might not win this one. It's still in negotiation. Frankly anything less than living with my family 100% of the time is criminal, so now we're just haggling over which ring of hell is the legislated reality.

I'm not sure which reply you were talking about. I didn't post how I replied to my children. The word "really" was just my surprise at the fact that my son had already heard about my key ring solution, it wasn't in reaction to his parroting STBX's comments.

That said, my reaction is one of indifference. If they bring up that "mom says" or "at mom's place" I just shrug and tell them we're different people and are going to do things differently like it's obvious and no big deal...because that's the truth.

If my D's start parroting mom's critical voice when they get older I'll be just fine. I parent them for them, I don't need their affection and approval. I fully expect them to be monsters, but I don't let my children impact how I feel about who I am or what I do. I think I learned this from being a manager. I got used to the fact that some employees would criticize everything I did, blame me for everything that went wrong, etc. Trust me, I know who I am and what I bring. They can criticize all they want. I'll get them to 18 and make sure they know I am there if the day comes they want to be civilized with me. It's their life and they'll have to choose their path. I will just lead by example and be available to them as little or as much as they want.

I am disappointed that their model for relationships will be to walk when it gets tough. It wouldn't surprise me if both of my D's became WAWs at some point. But again, I get to do my best as a parent to show them what I believe, and ultimately they get to make their own choices. I was pretty angry at one point at STBX because I feel she is bringing a lot of pain to the children and I am helpless to protect them...but I realize this is out of my control, and life's bumpy anyway. This is the human experience. I'll just be there to support them through it and show how to be true to yourself no matter what happens.

[Zues126]

Sunny, I'm sorry to hear about the falling out. I'd love to hear more about what happened if you're up for it. If you need someone to drive to FL and beat someone with a pet alligator let me know

Thanks, Zues, this made my day. Thank you for offering to let me vent, I don't know that there's a lot to tell. It was a guy that I had been texting, I thought we were having some lighthearted fun, although I had been rather forthcoming about some things. Yesterday it all exploded in a rather dramatic way, and it unbelievably all seems to boil down to a vocabulary issue. He found a couple of words I used offensive, although for the life of me I can't understand why. I went back and read that text a half dozen times trying to figure out what I'd done wrong and just never saw it. He's a native English speaker, too, so there's no excuse there. He wasn't objecting to a general tone, but to two specific words, which are just regular, ordinary, everyday English words. I apologized to him, tried to explain myself, but in the end it's done. There's no history there to glue it together. So, now he just thinks I'm a horrible person. Join the club. (Guess I did vent after all.)

Judy, come on down. There are enough alligators to go around.

BTW, Zues, I've deliberately stayed out of the parenting fumble discussion. I can read it a few ways, and in the end I have no doubt you'll sort through all the advice and find what's right for you.

That's just bizarre. Were the two words "Hyper" and "Sensitive"? Sheesh...

Thanks for the support Sunny. I'm doing fine. I'm not set in stone so I don't mind the discussion, but I'm getting along the best I can and I sleep like a baby knowing if I die in my sleep I gave it my all.

[Painter]

Did she get the court to agree to that custody setup? Not a father-friendly state?

I'm in MN. It isn't father unfriendly. STBX has simply built a case that it's best for D4 to be with mom more right now and that S11 has 'adjustment issues' and is going to counseling for outbursts of anger so it would be 'best for him' to stay with her during the week. My L says that we might not win this one. It's still in negotiation. Frankly anything less than living with my family 100% of the time is criminal, so now we're just haggling over which ring of hell is the legislated reality.

I hope you get 50/50 - and soon. Personally, I think her arguments could just as easily be turned the other way... that an 11 year old troubled boy needs to be with his father at that age.

I'm not sure which reply you were talking about. I didn't post how I replied to my children. The word "really" was just my surprise at the fact that my son had already heard about my key ring solution, it wasn't in reaction to his parroting STBX's comments.

I meant where you said that you sometimes would say "I'm not really worried about what mom thinks". It shows that she's doing this. It indicates to me that there has already been several incidents where the kids tell you that she criticizes your parenting.

That said, my reaction is one of indifference. If they bring up that "mom says" or "at mom's place" I just shrug and tell them we're different people and are going to do things differently like it's obvious and no big deal...because that's the truth.

If my D's start parroting mom's critical voice when they get older I'll be just fine. I parent them for them, I don't need their affection and approval. I fully expect them to be monsters, but I don't let my children impact how I feel about who I am or what I do. I think I learned this from being a manager. I got used to the fact that some employees would criticize everything I did, blame me for everything that went wrong, etc. Trust me, I know who I am and what I bring. They can criticize all they want. I'll get them to 18 and make sure they know I am there if the day comes they want to be civilized with me. It's their life and they'll have to choose their path. I will just lead by example and be available to them as little or as much as they want.

I am disappointed that their model for relationships will be to walk when it gets tough. It wouldn't surprise me if both of my D's became WAWs at some point. But again, I get to do my best as a parent to show them what I believe, and ultimately they get to make their own choices. I was pretty angry at one point at STBX because I feel she is bringing a lot of pain to the children and I am helpless to protect them...but I realize this is out of my control, and life's bumpy anyway. This is the human experience. I'll just be there to support them through it and show how to be true to yourself no matter what happens.

What I'm getting here, is again that you are focused on how it impacts you... not on how it impacts the children. It puts them in a bind that they don't know how to resolve. It puts them in the middle, which is exactly what you want to avoid to not have them carry the scars of their parent's divorce for the rest of their lives.

You are not helpless to protect them, there are several things you can do to stop this cycle, like ask for a co-parenting class for both of you. This is very common in D and not an unreasonable thing to ask for, especially when you have these episodes that have already happened.

I would encourage you to read about parental alienation and the damage it can do the children, and talk to your L about it, as well as S11's counselor.

[Zues126]

Thanks Painter. I agree with you about the 50/50. It is taking time, however I will say that STBX has been accommodating in the sense of letting me have them 5/14 nights voluntarily and flexing a bit during the summer. She wants me in their lives and has been an advocate, not an obstacle. She may not want the school year schedule disrupted and we differ a bit on this, but she hasn't been horrible by any stretch. Hopefully we can work through this L to L.

As for the parenting class, she and her L were asking that I attend one. My L said "no problem, let's agree that you BOTH attend one". She said it was a good thing to do, but that we wanted to keep on an even footing and not allow the perception that she was the 'good parent' and I was the 'incompetent one'. So this is probably going to occur already.

For me I feel diffusing the situation has been my best move. I don't think it's that big of a deal. I feel making it a big deal will make it a big deal. If I'm just like "meh, we're different people, of course we'll feel differently sometimes" then it kind of makes it less of a deal. At least that's the example I'm setting. Whereas for me to take issue with it and confront STBX directly or through L's, I feel this is making it bigger than it needs to be. Particularly when STBX appears to be trying to be respectful and just leaks a little criticism here and there. I have thought of what's best for the children in deciding this approach.

I do appreciate your feedback though. It's nice to have alternatives should I feel the situation degenerate to where it can't be swept under the rug.

[SunnyB]

For me I feel diffusing the situation has been my best move. I don't think it's that big of a deal. I feel making it a big deal will make it a big deal. If I'm just like "meh, we're different people, of course we'll feel differently sometimes" then it kind of makes it less of a deal. At least that's the example I'm setting. Whereas for me to take issue with it and confront STBX directly or through L's, I feel this is making it bigger than it needs to be. Particularly when STBX appears to be trying to be respectful and just leaks a little criticism here and there. I have thought of what's best for the children in deciding this approach.

Zues, I'm the Queen Rug Sweeper, I've swept some very large things under the rug for about 20 years, and it's one thing I'm working on big-time. BUT, I agree with you here, to me the whole thing is just a variation in parenting styles, not a personal attack in either direction. I could have seen this whole thing play out with parents who were madly in love and committed to their M. In fact, I have seen it among my friends, Ws who complain that their Hs fed the kid hot dogs all weekend and didn't bathe them while they were away on a girls trip. The choice here is, do you criticize dad because he did it, or do you know it won't kill them and be grateful you got away on a little retreat? Your W chose the former, but it's not necessarily about you. Long way to say, I think you did fine, here.

That's just bizarre. Were the two words "Hyper" and "Sensitive"? Sheesh...

I honestly have never had anything like this happen to me, ever. I suspect there are other issues going on there that have nothing to do with me. Better to find out now...

[SunnyB]

Zues, the Miccosukee Indian/alligator wrestling festival is tomorrow. Are you coming? If you need a ride from MIA just let me know.

[Painter]

Zues, I'm the Queen Rug Sweeper, I've swept some very large things under the rug for about 20 years, and it's one thing I'm working on big-time. BUT, I agree with you here, to me the whole thing is just a variation in parenting styles, not a personal attack in either direction. I could have seen this whole thing play out with parents who were madly in love and committed to their M. In fact, I have seen it among my friends, Ws who complain that their Hs fed the kid hot dogs all weekend and didn't bathe them while they were away on a girls trip. The choice here is, do you criticize dad because he did it, or do you know it won't kill them and be grateful you got away on a little retreat? Your W chose the former, but it's not necessarily about you. Long way to say, I think you did fine, here.

It's a completely different situation in an intact M. The psychological impact on children who have had their world turned upside down is just worlds apart. They become sensitive to this in an entirely different way. The dynamic between the parents and the children change dramatically.

I guess I've seen enough cases of the irreversible damage to kids where I just can't ignore it. We talk here about how a D is so detrimental to the kids, how we can't understand our partners breaking up the home - and this is exactly how that damage occurs.

In this case, I would have sent an e-mail and asked that Ex talks directly to me if she has any concerns, and not to the kids, because it's putting them in the middle and not good for them.

If she wants primary physical custody, she'll better show that she's the better parent. Facilitating a relationship with the other parent doesn't mean just making them available. It also means not doing anything to diminish the children's feelings for the other parent (that's the language of the law). And that's exactly what a parent does when they talk like that about the other parent. It may seem like a little thing, but it has a big effect on children. It can also backfire and make the child defensive of the critiqued parent. Either way, it puts the child in the middle, tears them apart. If a parent criticizes one parent, she or he also criticizes the child. The child isn't able to verbalize that, but that's what they feel, because they are part of that parent.

Once this damage has occured, you can't turn the clock back. That is why so many fathers lose contact with their children when they are teenagers - they have been taught to disrespect the father, look at him as a secondary parent, and that when they have friends and activities that take up their time, they don't have to go visit their dad (yes, they see it as a visit, because mom has established herself firmly as the primary parent in the primary home). And dad didn't want to rock the boat.

I'll let this go now - I just wanted to point out that this happening in an intact home doesn't have the same ramifications.

I'm on the other side of this, having lived in a D family for 15 years, and worked with hundreds of divorced families in the same situation. I just want to share my experience so this doesn't have to happen to others.