Answer to: "why didn't you hear it from ME?"

[Flight]

I meant that a good filter to view things through is do what works and stop doing what doesn't work. I was second guessing myself and then answered my own question when I found out what was going on. I have taken advice from the boards here and from the DB and DR books. What threw me is that I didn't have all the information and had miscontrued causality. I was confused because what I thought was working didn't work all of a sudden. I realized that something else happened that I didn't know that poisoned the well. Does that make sense?

In other words, what I was doing WAS working, I could tell it was making a difference. When she started reacting angrily just to my being in the same house, I thought maybe I was pressuring or needed to LRT. Instead, it was something else someone told her and that set us back two steps. She even said our one of our last relationship conversations was a "heart to heart" and she thought we had a "breakthrough". Having finally gotten this off her chest now, I guess we will see how that wound will heal. It is just hard hearing about how wrong I was for reacting when I first found out about the EA instead of her having any self-awareness for having the EA in the first place.

[Flight]

So she had to travel for work and will get in very late and be exhausted. Do I greet her when she comes home and help her with her bags, or just sit in my room with the light on and ignore her or make believe I am asleep?

[Flight]

I took it that a friend would do that for another friend and it didn't have to be an attempt to push a connection beyond courtesy. She seemed to be surprised I waited up so late, but thanked me for the help then and again in the morning. I just unloaded the car and put her stuff in the room, asked about the flight, and told her goodnight. It was a positive.

[asitis]

Sounds like a good interaction.

[Flight]

I am on the rollercoaster ride with so many here. Literally since we went to an amusement park over the weekend. In the same day that we had a great connection in the park halfway through the day with our kids, she got livid with me at night for something she misinterpreted about something I did. That carried into the next day where she picked a fight with me in my room. But by nights end with validating and trying not to react to things, she was vulnerable and in tears and then caring more for me than she has in months. I have to be the one on an even keel, that is what I am learning.

[RAI]

Then she came to a counseling session with me for the first time. She stated her goal was to help my counselor help me move on.

Hi Flight,
I ripped this quote of yours from another thread. I skimmed your thread briefly, so forgive me and let me know if I am off base. I have 2 observations:

1) "doing what works" is not equivalent to "doing what makes your W like you more or warm up to you". You are in the early stages where you are still doing things in order to elicit response from your W. You need to start doing things to feel better about yourself. Detach and GAL as much as possible. It's counter inutuitive, I know.

2) Re: the quote above: Your IC sessions are for you, and you alone. YOU set the agenda. I am not sure why you would let your W hijack the session and dictate the agenda. Why should your W have a goal vis-a-vis YOUR counseling? You need your OWN goals in counseling and they are, frankly, none of her business. I would seriously wonder whether your IC has been compromised by her viewpoint. You may need to consider changing counselors. If you want to duke things out in another venue, like MC, that would be different. However, she is likely not even receptive to MC right now.

P.S. I am under the same roof with WW for 2 years. I know what you are feeling. Sorry for all of this.

RAI

[Flight]

I have one comment and 2 questions

Despite all my reading here and the books, I think I am still figuring out "detaching" and "GAL" and balancing that with "validation".

The idea for the IC session and have her "hijaak" it was mine and my counselors. It was really to find out where she is. It would help her in that it can lead me to a place where I am understanding her and see sees it, but it can help "us" if this leads her to be willing to go to MC. She agreed to go under her terms, but the actual session made no promise that that would be a limiting factor.

First question is related to the above comment about balance. I know this is MW-D's forum and based on HER opinions. We all know other sources out there as well. I know consistency is important, so you should pick a course of action and stick with it. Perhaps I am missing that the sitch determines the course and we are talking about a WAW which is 180 or LRT. That assumes that the relationship is past the point of making a connection and only being prepared to leave the relationship and move on will jolt them into possibly coming back.

What about "one-way texts", "tag alongs", etc? Do you incorporate those into the process, or is it an either/or situation? I completely get "no pressure" and I can't act like a husband anymore, but can't you still build a connection? For example, another prominent relationship saving coach says, "No Contact is crap!" I realize there is a difference between GAL and NC, but there again is my confusion in the search for balance. Being attractive, positive, confident, aloof but supportive, all seem to build curiosity in my WW. Being thoughtful by sending a couple of texts a week or handling my share of the household load, seem to put cracks in her resolve to end things. Pulling too far away seems to elicit more of a "out of sight, out of mind" response.

The second question is more of an observation and not meant to insult anyone in any way. I just notice that every time I look at the posts of people giving this information, their signature line says "Mediation set for end of September" or "Divorced in June". I understand that for some of those folks, it ain't over till it's over, but it just seems like if they were doing what they are preaching, it didn't appear to work. As a matter of fact, it is pretty depressing to look at the track records here. To listen to these coaches, they have a phenomnal success rate. But maybe that is with people who actually pay the big bucks and both parties attend their sessions.

And thanks for sharing RAI about your sitch. Two years, wow, I feel your pain and it scares me a little. I can't see going though this for that long.

[Starsky309]

Flight,

Take it from someone who DID successfully reconcile their marriage, this "supplication/pursuit" thing you're doing never works. You keep coming up with very well-written justifications for doing it, but from where I sit I see PURSUIT and ENMESHMENT, and not DETACHMENT.

Let me ask it this way: Do you think at any point in your sitch your wife has had any credible fear that she might be losing you? I know, I know -- "not that she cares" and all, but irrespective of that -- HAS SHE?

I have never in all my time here seen a wayward or walkaway spouse return to their betrayed spouse (and have it last) until they had some gut-level fear that they were moving on without them.


Starsky

[RAI]

The second question is more of an observation and not meant to insult anyone in any way. I just notice that every time I look at the posts of people giving this information, their signature line says "Mediation set for end of September" or "Divorced in June". I understand that for some of those folks, it ain't over till it's over, but it just seems like if they were doing what they are preaching, it didn't appear to work. As a matter of fact, it is pretty depressing to look at the track records here. To listen to these coaches, they have a phenomnal success rate. But maybe that is with people who actually pay the big bucks and both parties attend their sessions.

Speaking for those headed for D, no offense taken. The people that come here typically arrive when the MR has deteriorated beyond or close-to-beyond repair. Furthermore, most, including you and I, BTW, have a lot of difficulty applying DB principles in the beginning. That does not mean the DB principles are flawed. In retrospect, had I discovered DB earlier and applied the principles properly at that time, I believe that I may have been able to save my M - if it was worth saving, which brings me to my next point:

After a while, your definition of success changes. At the beginning, success, for me, meant saving my M - at any cost. Now, success means detaching from a flawed person whom I cannot control and raising my children as a great father. In the beginning, your ego hurts from getting dumped. You would do anything to get your W back, even though she is treating you like dirt. However, once you recognize you true value, you realize that you can only control your own actions and you use your new-found intellect to drive decisions that are in your best interests. In short, you become a MAN.

And thanks for sharing RAI about your sitch. Two years, wow, I feel your pain and it scares me a little. I can't see going though this for that long.

Day by day, my friend... day by day.

RAI

[Flight]

First, I have to say that of all the boards I have ever participated in, the level of conversation and consideration of each others' feelings is pretty amazing. Perhaps all the work done one ourselves and putting it to practice with our spouses makes people less reactive and defensive. Thanks for such a great resource and all your help.

Maybe I am making things more difficult for myself by trying to follow a "save the marriage" PhD who has an ebook and course and this board and Michele's DR and DB books. I think the former is more about you have to rebuild a connection (though he is very clear about don't beg, don't plead, don't chase) and, at least with the 180 and LRT, it is more about detachment and GAL.

I hope I am starting to follow you because I did not mean to rationalize what I am doing, but rather explain what I thought was working and have you help me see what I was missing. It is great to be able to re-read what I wrote and try to get what you are saying.

I think it is pretty clear when Starsky asked a laser focused question, "has she had any fear she is losing you?". That is a good filter to look at things through. And the quick answer is only twice probably and I backpedaled. The big one when I got furious, but in a controlled way and set a boundary and then took over the MBR and would not talk to her when she wanted to. She got a key and opened my door to force herself into the room to talk. Another time I was speaking about the relationship in the past tense in text. In both those times, she wanted to defend herself and seek me out to talk and we did have a "good" conversation each time. We resolved an issue or two that we couldn't seem to when we were "a couple" and she gave me a lot more information about her feelings so I felt I finally understood how she felt about the things that got us here. It also gave me practice to validate her feelings which she didn't feel I did much of the time before.

The "overall" answer is that no, she has not felt like she has lost me and I am "moving on". How do you do that while still living under the same roof and parenting a child together? We have to have a certain amount of interaction about running the household and about our daughter. We don't do things together in the house, though sometimes she wants to talk or we have a family dinner. I know I don't have to be mean, I can still be civil, smile and be pleasant, but be more like the first shift worker who hands the keys to the equipment to the second shift replacement when they come home? I keep thinking about this bit of wisdom about GAL and giving her space:

That is doing more than any of the superficial courtship actions will do right now, as you are respecting her decision and request, taking her needs seriously, and handling it with dignity and courage.

What would a week in my home look like? I am the primary caregiver because I have a flexible schedule, so I take my D to school, pick her up, and handle most of the other to and fro's. I have IC and another meeting on a different evening. I have started to do more with friends and doing the projects around the house and for hobbies that I have neglected. I guess I could disappear some weekends. What did you do or not do?