I agree, alot of baby steps. My OM used to hate the fact that I spent more time with him than with OM. but I was going back and fourth between both of them until I realized what I really wanted out of life. MY OM told me that I spent too much time with OM, because I was still in move with him and he was right! Once I learned that I needed and could take care of myself, things regarding my ex just fell into place and maybe this is what happening to your w. boy, she is really comfortable speaking to you about OM, maybe it's because she doesn't love him. I never, ever spoke to h about OM but now that I'm not living with him sometimes comments do come out.
Halo, thanks for the hugs and prayers!!! Anita, thanks for your comments, you have regularly given me unique insight into my sitch, and it is always appreciated.
Renew's lesson of the day: don't push yourself so hard, take care of yourself. (Don't be a fool like me )
For the last week or so I've been burning the proverbial candle at too many ends: I've been putting in extra time at the office, participating in activities to get a life, working out hard at the gym, making a number of long car trips, and staying up late hanging out w/ W on the few nights when we're both home together. Well, it caught up with me. I had an L4/5 microdiscectomy a few years ago, and every time I start to push hard like this it comes back to haunt me. I could barely get out of bed this morning, and will be missing a client presentation because of it. Not good. On top of that, I really get the impression from W that when the back acts up, its a sign that I'm not doing such a great job taking care of my health. W couldn't help but notice last night that I was having a little trouble moving around, and she knew--immediately started talking about how I need to be more careful, how I shouldn't be staying up late for her, how I need to slow down at the gym, etcetera.
So, I'm having to work from home today, and maybe tomorrow too. When I came home this morning after briefing someone else at the office so they could make the presentation for me, W was feisty (in the not so good way) and cranky. She snapped at me for being too happy and talkative when she hadn't even woken up yet. She even snapped at the cat for purring too loud. The only "good" thing was that she said the old me would have bitten her head off for her being loud in the morning while I was still asleep (which is at least another sign that she knows how much I've changed). She eased up later in the morning and we chatted about some of the renovation work we need to do around the house over the next few months. But I get the feeling this is a backslide (pun intended) for me, and I just hope it doesn't cost me too much.
So do yourself a favor and don't be a fool like Renew has been this past week. Learn from my mistakes and take care of yourself!
Other little updates... Before the back thing came up, we were watching "Extreme Makeover" together. I was sort of lying on my back with my legs crossed and lifted against the back of the couch. She was sitting up on the edge of the couch near my legs. 15 minutes before the end of the show she just leans back into my legs like they were her back rest, and she stayed that way for until the end of the show we were watching. Definitely a slight shift up in comfort level on her part with touching me.
As we were readying for bed, she was talking about how after the 10k and hearing about my workout schedule, OM has finally decided to go to the gym w/ W. We started talking about how thin I am now, how much I weigh now. Then, out of nowhere she launched into a little diatribe about how I could have any woman I wanted, how I could have a different girl every week. When I told her she knew I wanted none of that nonsense, she said, "Yeah I know, but you could." I may be overreaching here, but occasionally I get the distinct feeling that--and this also comes from the way she complains about her appearance to me often, how this or that about her is so far from perfect--she's not really sure why I find her atttractive, or if I even do (which makes me nuts that she could think that way, because I see the most beautiful woman whenever I look at her). She also often--not always--shrugs off my compliments on her appearance in a sort yeah right kind of way. Could there be something to this or am I just focusing on negatives here?
Regardless of the backslide and all the ups and downs, my PMA has been more consistently up lately, I think detaching more is helping.
I don't think you backslid, Renew. You will backslide now if you don't take care of your back. Same here, I have a back issue from years ago and when I don't go see my chiropractor for it, my H goes nuts. So, I know not to mention it to him unless I have a. already made an appt to see chiro or b. have just gotten back from appt. Then, and only then, is it OK for me to talk about being in pain.
Quote: ...she just leans back into my legs like they were her back rest, and she stayed that way for until the end of the show we were watching.
Very nice baby step. You must be very proud of her comfort level going up. Remember, listen to her actions, not her words.
Quote: ...about how I could have any woman I wanted, how I could have a different girl every week.
How would she react if you went out on a non-sexual date with a woman? Just a friend. Would she be jealous?
Quote: --and this also comes from the way she complains about her appearance to me often, how this or that about her is so far from perfect--which makes me nuts that she could think that way, because I see the most beautiful woman whenever I look at her
This definitely can be her issue. Look at me. Although I'm overweight now, I have still recently had several good looking men make passes at me. When I look in the mirror, I am disappointed. But I have had many men fall in love with me and tell me I am beautiful. When my H would look at me and tell me I was beautiful, he would CRY. I mean, a 6'2" triple black belt in karate would CRY when he looked at me. He would say "God you are so beautiful. You sparkle, when you enter a room, it lights up. Your smile is beautiful... etc." I would respond "No I'm not, one eye is bigger than the other, my teeth are not white enough, I have a wrinkle around my eyes, I have begun to get grey hair..." and on and on and on.
I have no doubt that I really am beautiful. My mom was a model, I look very much like her. When I enter a room, men take notice. Even so, the love of a man that I would have given my soul for, who loved me more than life itself, was not enough to make me **feel** beautiful.
It seemed that the more he told me I was beautiful, the more I would tell him I was not. It was like the old push and push harder issue in DB. When you push to make the spouse feel something, they push harder the opposite way. I recently began to realize that I wasn't happy with myself inside and didn't feel beautiful because of who I had become. I wanted desperately for my H to realize this, and when he refused to see how awful I felt about myself, how bad of a person I really was, and insisted I was beautiful, I just had to fight him.
Now I regret ever having said I wasn't. I long for the days of him loving me with such abandon.
So, with that in mind, I would suggest to you that you do not mention to her that you think she is beautiful more than once. When she says she is not, respond "you can't tell me what to feel. I feel that you are the most beautiful woman I have ever seen (as you have hinted at) and when I look at you, I can see only what I see. If you don't feel beautiful, perhaps there are other reasons because I don't feel it can be your outside. I love your inside also, but if you need help changing, I am here for you."
I say that because I would have responded to that.
I don't think she takes your compliments because she doesn't have alot of self cofidence in herself. It seems like she does care for you, telling you to take care of yourself ( and you should-shame, shame) Now the next thing I'm going to sound crazy, but read me out--when she said you could get woman I think she is saying that because in a way, she feels guilty for having on OM and you don't have anyone, she wants to make sure you have someone to be with you. Also, sounds stupid, but by suggesting you could get anyone opens the door to letting her know that you are still interested in her because you said that you weren't interested. When I first got my OM and would suggest different woman who would be great with my h, but I just did that to test him.
Anitasues, you are correct in that as well. I also have pointed out cute women to my H in night clubs. He has gotten angry at me for it. That made me feel like he loved me, despite what he says. I never did that before the bomb, I was always secure in "us" before.
I've been very busy with work lately, and I know I haven't been following up on everyone else's threads, I hope to catch up shortly.
Rottzilla, Anita, Thanks for your posts.
Quote: when she said you could get woman I think she is saying that because in a way, she feels guilty for having on OM and you don't have anyone, she wants to make sure you have someone to be with you.
Yes, I think there may be a lot of truth in that. She asked me about it again today. She asked if I wasn't dating because I thought it might affect her relationship with me, or if I wasn't dating because I didn't want to. I told her it wasn't what I wanted. She seemed to already know the answer, as if she were asking just to hear it again.
Quote: When she says she is not, respond "you can't tell me what to feel. I feel that you are the most beautiful woman...
I told her something very similar to this over the weekend when she started talking about all her imperfections. I even listed some of my own imperfections for her, saying our imperfections are often part of what make us beautiful. She didn't really know what to say, just nodded and said uh-huh.
(Sorry, another long post, but lots to report I think.)
W talks more about the OM...
W continues to talk to me about OM more and more, expressing her doubts about him, and how much these doubts bother her, but always coaching the doubts with niceties about him. She likes him for how respectful and nice he is to her, how he is a very talkative and fun person to be with. But she's expressed a little bit of discomfort that since she met him he's basically dumped every detail of his entire life story on her. She also thinks he (a) is rather insecure about himself, (b) is often ashamed of his past relationships, (c) may have some issues relating to seeing women as objects, and (d) may have some jealousy issues (not just in relation to me, but also towards 2 other men W went on one date each with). I recently joked that W should bring OM by the house one morning and we could all have coffee together. She said, "Yeah right, that wouldn't work, he'd be way too nervous."
She appears to be getting irritated by his anxiousness. She's told him that she wants to go slow, and that she's still trying to figure out what she wants. She thinks that he should just get the hint that her spending time with him means she likes him, that--in her own words-- her "actions speak louder than words," something she feels very strongly about. (So if she's so big on "actions speaking louder than words", like she says she is, what do her actions with me over the last few months, and even over the last 24 hours--see below--mean?)
W is upset that OM has on more than one occasion started telling her how many opportunities for dates he gets all the time, like he "needs to prove his attractiveness." W says this leaves a bad taste in her mouth, like finding a bone or something disgusting in a piece of food you you've just bitten into. W also says that because of what we went through, her radar for strange male behavior and emotional wierdness is much more heightened. She is concerned that his past relationships caused him emotional trouble that he can't get past, even though he says he has. Nonetheless she continues to spend more time with him, sometimes as many as four nights a week. Go figure.
Update...
Friday: W stayed home. We ate dinner together and talked all night--no TV--staying up until 2 am. We were both really tired but we just stayed up anyway. Awhile after dinner, we were chatting on the couch, and I was laying back on the couch like I normally might, she sitting near my feet. She kept leaning back every time she yawned. So the third or fourth time I just gave her a light push on the shoulder, she fell back lightly without resisting, I reached down grabbed her feet and swung them over between my legs, so we were crossed opposite each other on the sofa with her feet on my shoulders, and I massaged her calfs. I could no longer resist the opportunity for PT, and I caved. At first she said kind of sleepily and jokingly, "What'd you push me for?" But then she just laid back and closed her eyes. We stayed like that for maybe 30 minutes, and she almost fell asleep like that.
Saturday: We were supposed to work on the yard, but it was chilly and drizzling. Instead, we hung out around the house talking while we took care of little things like me cleaning out my closet and her doing her nails (the closet is directly across from the bathroom). We were then going to go to the gym, but we got pleasantly "sidetracked" into clothes shopping for her in three different stores (more marvelous little fashion shows, very very fun), as well as peeking into a furniture store and an antique store. On top of all that public activity together, we actually ate a late lunch together at a local cafe, which for me meets my goal of us eating out together. I was ecstatic. On the downside my back is still sore and recovering. I'd been playing it down for the past few days, but getting up from the table I was hit with a muscle cramp and there was no playing that off. W came around the table and massaged the cramp out for me, and we left to do a little more shopping. Overall, though, we had a really good time, a lot of fun. She even remarked later that she knew OM could have seen us while we were out, and then just shrugged her shoulders and said, "Oh well."
Sunday: (Saturday night she goes out with OM). She's back early Sunday morning before I'm even out of bed. She comes into my room to tcikle my feet and tell me its time to get up, and then goes into her room and lies down. I get up, shower, and get dressed. I come in and--yes I know I shouldn't have--lie down right behind her and rub her back a little saying what a sleepy little girl she is, saying how great it is the weather is nicer for working on the yard. She tells me that OM had a dream last night that I came into his house to wake him and W up in the morning and then I urinated on his floor. I said it wasn't that strange at all: typical male stuff about marking territory and all that. W knew exactly what I meant, we both laughed. I rub her back for just a few more minutes and I get up, not wanting to wear out my welcome. I go downstairs, drink my coffee, mow the lawn, and make breakfast.
I come upstairs with her coffee saying breakfast is ready. She's already up and in the bathroom saying cheerily that she smelled the bacon. Over breakfast she talks even more about OM, me, and her life... OM has just can't seem to understand how she and I are doing what we're doing, living together and being so happy and friendly with each other. She has explained to OM that I am still living her because she and I aren't resentful people, becuase we care about each other, because we just want each other to be happy. W says she's told OM more stuff about me (about how I used to be, why she thinks I was like that, about some of my friends...). It bothers me a little that she's divulging this stuff to him, but I just listen, she's told me plenty aobut him too. She says another reason she tells me so much about him is that because she (a) has a relationship with me where she feels like we can tell each other anything, and (b) doesn't feel like she can tell anyone in her family everything she tells me.
OM calls just after we just finish eating, he wants to know if she wants to go eat brunch with him. She is giggly and cheery with him, but I am sitting there right next to her, and she does look right at me (smiling) several times during the conversation. She tells him that she already ate, that she has yardwork to do, and that she'll see him tonight. I help her with the yard for an hour or two before having to do some work for the office. She gets a little cranky while we're putting some edging down. She says its PMS and that I need to be less cheery and more quiet.
While we're placing a stake in the ground she goes, "Ouch!" I think I've pinched her finger, but no. She jumps away and shouts ouch again and starts dancing and swatting her butt. There's a bug in her pants! I tell her to get inside and take off her pants, and I run ahead of her and hold the door open for her. She gets inside and drops 'em. No sign of the bug, he must have fallen out during the run. She has me check for bug bites! Then she sits down on the bench inspecting every square inch of her pants before she'll put them back on. I start laughing, then get a fake serious look saying no its not funny, then start laughing again and we're both laughing our butts off. Har har.
She's going away next weekend to spend Easter with family at her parent's house. I really do wonder what that will be like for her. I hope it gives her some time to get away for a little while and relax. I like her family a lot, and I'm just a little bummed that I won't get to see them, but considering our sitch as it is right now, I'm not going to fret over it.
Summary...
So I continue to see babysteps, they keep occurring. The pace sometimes seems like molasses on a very cold day, and the whole OM deal is a really big bug in my knickers, but I have to say that my sitch does continue to show gradual improvement. She continues to flip flop (unconsciously?) back and forth between we and I statements when she talks about the house and the future. And I get the impression that she honestly appreciates the things I'm doing like the cleaning, and helping with the house, and making dinner, etcetera. She's been engaging me in more and more conversations about plans for the house, she gets excited about me making dinner, she talks about us cleaning together. And heck, just before I overdid my back, she was talking about us going trail running together.
)
