Okay, Renew... it's time for game huddle. I'm going to be back your way next week, so I might have to hunt you down to reiterate what I'm going to say here and now.
As I've told Dazed Boy, Seattle and Triple J in the past, I don't see the fat lady in the stadium yet. I read on someone else's post that she was on a diet and unavailable?
So here's my opinion, for what it's worth...
You need to do more work in detaching. She knows how you feel about her and your M, and she senses a pursuit--no matter how it's coming across from your side of the coin.
You're awfully available to her right now. Forgive me for being blunt here (it seems to be in my nature today), but what incentive are you giving her to want to come back and work on things? You're doing the pedaling, guy.
And she knows it.
I truly think you have something to work with and work for, Renew. You just need to tweak things a bit. Your overall all goal and attributes are certainly working for you. So what do you have to lose by dropping the rope?
What would happen if she felt threatened by you moving on? If she sensed that she doesn't have your friendship unconditionally? If she is your best friend and views you as such, she's going to find that prospect a little disturbing. But she's going to have to believe that you're taking those steps to get there.
Please understand that I'm not suggesting you stop being friendly toward her. But to give her the impression that you are not her lackey and doormat and love her, but love yourself enough to be fair to yourself?
So I agree with you on not making any radical changes. You're a nice guy, so don't pull a 180 and start acting like a jerk. But I do think a good 180 for you would be to start doing things that you find enjoyable without asking her to join you.
What do you think?
Hugs,
Betsey
p.s. Mr. W. and I have good friends who have been M for 24 years (he met them in college). She became a WAW, for a variety of reasons. And yes, they're happily still married today, with a whole lot of effort.
Anyway, we went out to visit them in CA 2 years ago. I asked her why she was inclined to come back and work with her H? She said, "Because he went out and got a life without me. He'd been using me as his social crutch for too long, and I realized that I liked the new person he had become and his new circle of friends."
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
WELL! This is a lot to take in. Sorry for the long post. No, wait, no I'm not.
Quote:
...she's not ready to have a relationship with me, because she's still somehow in protection mode with me and it makes her uncomfortable...
Is this what she said? She's not "READY?" Because "ready" implies that it is coming but isn't here yet. Ready to me means, "I need more time."
Quote: because she's honest with OM about what she and I do...
IS SHE? I thought she was lying to him on her cell phone with you being right there staying quiet. Maybe that's another Renew I know. Sorry. Seriously, maybe she just did it once, didn't think of it, or didn't feel like she actually lied. But I feel differently on this one. She can't feel that comfortable with him if she is not opening herself to him about everything regarding you. And if she is not opening in regards to you, she must FEEL like there is something to hide.
Quote: ...she feels my behavior has made her much more comfortable around me
What else to say but GOOD!
Quote: she acknowledges that she finds me very physically attractive...
Ummmm GOOD! he he he...
Quote: but is not yet attracted to be intimate with me
Hmmm... yet... (tapping my forehead to think)... yet, I THINK I remember the definition of that word... Isn't it something like 'at a future time, EVENTUALLY'
Quote: , she said when she feels something more for me we won't need a sign--she'll know and she'll say,...
WHEN!!! HELLO!?! Are these really her words? A bit of Freudian psychology going on here?
Quote: She feels that we do have a connection (communication/emotional) again but feels like part of her is retracted in a shell because of everything that happened with us--a protective shell that keeps her from getting closer to me
This is fine, IMHO. Nothing that can't change, if she lets it... I hope you found a way to sneak in mention of how the changes in you are for real and forever because you are so happy lately with yourself and never want to go back to being the old you.
Again, it sounds like OM is fulfilling a need to be needed with her. Not saying there aren't genuine emotions there, but what is the real basis for their R?
OK, the path is clear. Care to RENEW your vows to DB along with me? I'm doing it daily now. It helps.
The path laid before you is obvious. (to me anyway, anyone else who cares to differ, please do...) I believe you have to make her see that the changes in you are real and forever and you care about yourself as much as or more than her. This will allow her to relax her "outer shell" and come (draw) closer to you. More reliance on you to bear her emotional burdens, more "need" but not "neediness" of her on your part, and lots of validation, both for her and yourself.
Betsey, Thanks for the huddle (does this mean we're wearing spandex?). You make some very good points. I think a few others have been trying to tell me the same thing, but I can't seem to get it through my thick skull.
Quote: You need to do more work in detaching.
You're right. I think I'd detached to a point earlier in the process but have been having trouble detaching further. My fear is that she wants me to move on so she can move on without me. I need to let go of that fear.
Quote: But I do think a good 180 for you would be to start doing things that you find enjoyable without asking her to join you.
Agreed. I will spend more time with my friends. I have starting to go cycling again, but she never liked cycling very much, so I also need to participate in activities she has interest in, as opposed to ones she wouldn't join me in anyway. I don't think she feels left out when I meet the guys out for a few drinks. I need to get on the tennis thing pronto, take a few lessons, find someone to play with. I ought to identify more activities like tennis.
Quote: I believe you have to make her see that the changes in you are real and forever and you care about yourself as much as or more than her.
Rottzilla, Thank you for pointing out the good in my posts. I always enjoy doing the same for you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're trying to tell me pretty much the same thing Betsey is... I need to take care of me a little more, that I can detach from her and be a little less available and have some fun of my own.
I am absolutely trying to tell you the same thing Betsey is. You and I have the same fears, and I am at the same stagnant point in our R. I know that to move further on, I need to go out on my own more and "draw H through the door." Where I am now, constantly available to him, he doesn't feel the need to move on things. He is allowing himself that outer shell of protection that won't allow him to feel love for me. I want his love, and I have to learn to stop feeling afraid that if I go out, he will grow apart from me. However, if I stay where I am right now, and not go out and do my own things to make him curious and "draw him towards me," guess where I'll be? Probably 6 months from now either still waiting, or else in 6 months, he will be tired of waiting for those feelings to come back and begin looking for OW again.
It's so very hard because each weekend, he makes plans and invites me, and these are my friends also he is going out with. How do I say "no?" How do I pass up the opportunity to go out and have a good time with him and create more memories? But, I also know that I am the glue that binds these nights out, and without me, they won't have as good a time. H is too laid back and doesn't make decisions or plans well... so, I know what I need to do, but I can't bring myself to do it.
He has his cake and is eating it too. He told me once that he felt cold towards me, no love or anything, but that he didn't ever want to lose my friendship. Well, that's his fear, and I need to remember that and use it. Now that he is back to caring about me and wanting to be around me, what effect will it have on him to see that I am not always available to him as a friend because sometimes I am out doing my own thing? Does the word "longing" mean anything to you? Well, H used to "long" for me at work. He thought about me all the time. He emailed me, met me for lunch, wrote me letters and couldn't wait for me to get home at night so we could be together. That's the love I had, and I am willing to settle for no less from him again.
I need to make him long for me, and to chase me.
I NEED to walk away from that door and leave him wondering where I am. I NEED to be doing something fun and exciting when he peeks in that door. I NEED to ignore him for a while while he watches me from the door "longing" for me. And then, I WANT to invite him to join me on my side of the door... and join me in my new activities.
I am taking up painting and guitar again, which he has always admired in me. I am also going bike riding at lunch, and I am going to get my stamina up, then join a mountain biking club. Some new friends, new activities, and something H loves to do. So, when he finally peeks through that door, he will long to be with me doing fun things with my new friends. And, after I have had my fill of his watching me, I will invite him in. "Come on in, the water's fine."
Now, you may be thinking, Elaine, why on earth did you just hijack my thread? Well, because I want you (1) to use those powers of insight to see that what I said about my sitch is correct, and (2) to see how it applies in your sitch as well. I've seen some really fantastic positives in my situation that show me that H is "" this close to coming around to ILY again. I was trying to point out to you that your W is showing you through her subtle words that she may feel that way again.
Both of us need to renew our vows and start to DB properly again. Less physical availability while still being emotionally available. Needing them, but not needy. Attracting them, not pushing or pursuing them.
Renew, I almost feel as if you and I are in this together. When something happens in your side, it seems to mirror in my side. If you fail, I will be heartbroken because (this may sound crazy to you) I feel like I will fail. I care about a lot of people I have met on this board, as most of us do, but I really have gotten so much from you and through so much because of you and your wonderful ability to have insight into my situation.
It almost seemed like you were starting to lose faith for a bit there, and it was scaring me. Don't do that, I think you are also "" this close.
So, take heart, see the good in what she told you, discard the negative, and let's go get 'em!!!
Just something that popped in my head---what does she tell OM when she is over with you, watching t.v., hanging out, etc. I was little annoyed that she said that you could go to the concert if you didn't mind OM--whats up with that, is this just a game. She tells you that your arent' good at this separation stuff, I don't think she is either, again just a thought I had
Don't blame you for being spun by that convo, seemed like W talking in circles a bit. Typical WAS, say one thing, but then saying another thing that kind of contradicts that. Just letting out their mind content- which is confused, for the time being- but with all the chances of turning around! And definitely focus on the good parts of that convo, try to pass the rest off as "discontent". I'd agree about pulling back. More of the "your own life" stuff to peak W's interest.. Think it may have good effect in your sitch, esp seeing how you saw her reaction when you said the word "roommate". That was great! She's not expecting that, for you to make steps to "detach". Taking you for granted right now, thinking you'll always be there wanting an R and to do things with her.. I think it works well with WAS, when we let them initiate more of the time together. Acting like you're fine as things are now, especially since you are living together, you have that daily opportunity to show her the new, exciting you! The one who's meeting all kinds of new people, including women (just platonic, but the suggestion of "what if" does wonders!) and doing stuff without W. Like get her thinking about what you are up to?! Then, watch her interest grow..
Master the self-fulfilling prophecy.. Act 'as if' it's going to happen and make it be!!
Rottzilla, Anita, Rj2, thanks for your posts. I would say I'm in a new phase of DBing now, and your advice is helping me to get it going right.
Quote: Both of us need to renew our vows and start to DB properly again. Less physical availability while still being emotionally available. Needing them, but not needy. Attracting them, not pushing or pursuing them.
Rottzilla (or Elaine?), you are right. It took you guys awhile to knock this into my thick skull, but I think its finally in there, so I'm moving ahead with this approach.
Quote: If you fail, I will be heartbroken because (this may sound crazy to you) I feel like I will fail.
We will not fail. Everyone say it with me, "We will not fail!" With our patient kindness, loving detachment, and perseverant spirits, we will prevail.
Quote: She tells you that your arent' good at this separation stuff, I don't think she is either, again just a thought I had
Anita, I think you are so on the money on this one. How couldn't I see that before. She's no better at it than I am.
Update...
Thursday night we had another ghost episode in the house. W woke up to voices and clicking sound like wiffleball bouncing on a sidewalk. As soon as she looked out the window all the noise stopped, and there was noone outside. She called out my name, and I woke up and came in and sat next to her on her bed. I held her hand and we talked for a little while about the ghostly stuff in the house, and some ghostly stuff at OM's house.
I told her about an episode that had happened a few weeks ago one night while she was at OM's. I awoke to the sound of footsteps in the attic, and when I started to climb out of bed the noises stopped. So I actually got out a flashlight and went up into the attic and sat up there for half an hour to see if anything else would happen. W was shocked, she said "ohmigod I would never have done that." She said the ghost stuff wierds her ou, I said I don't mind it--I actaully kind of like it--as long as its always innocent and benevolent. Mind you I had years ago previously always denied any kind of thing such as ghosts--maintaining that it was all somehow explainable as some simple coincidence. We went downstairs, mad some chocolate milk, talked for a few mintes and went back to bed.
Friday night we went shopping together again. She later went to OM's for the night. I went out with friends.
Saturday she ran a 10k with OM. She left him in the dust. He's trim, but not in athletically fit at all. We only saw each other for a few minutes on Saturday. She was about to get in the shower when I stopped by the house in between two birthday parties I attended Saturday night. I chatted with her for a few minutes, told her that Friday night I had to use my wedding ring like a shield to fend off the women, and then said goodbye (politely telling her people were waiting for me, and I had tor run).
Sunday. She came home early this morning before I'd even gotten out of bed. No breakfast this time, but she did actaully clean the bathroom. I was shocked and thrilled. I thanked her. I have been letting go on some of the cleaning around the house to see if she'll actually start to do a little more. We were talking about how we need the roofer to come out and reattach a few of the slate shingles. She asked me if I could call the roofers. I told her very pleasantly that I thought she should take care of that phone call becasue its techinically her house now. She asked if I had their telephone number. I told her that all the information she needed was in the roof project folder I gave her three months ago (I was the one who managed the major house projects like the roof and the kitchen renovation). She said oh, and we talked about something else after that.
Currently she is going over OM's to wash her car (I haven't offered to wash it since last time) and I'm going to church and possibly out to have dinner with some friends. She said she might come back tonight. I was getting out of the shower as she was about to walk out. She came running back upstairs, "I forgot my sunglasses." She calls from her bedroom for me to come see how cute the cat looks sleeping on the bed. I walk over and stand in her bedroom door--still dripping wet--and we talk about the how cute the cat is for 5 minutes. She slowly walks over towards the door and stands there facing me saying she's going, but just sort of stands there looking at me. I put my finger on her nose and she just looks at me. I ask if I can touch her nose with mine. She goes "Oh an eskimo kiss?" and I say yes and give her an eskimo kiss. I move out of her way, we say bye, and she leaves.
I know I need to detach more. It's hard to detach and act as if I'm having this great life WITHOUT her, when in truth I want to spend all of my time WITH her. But I've got to do it. I just have to. And like Betsey said, I really don't have anything to lose, so I'm going to keep pushing forward with detaching. I like Rj2's description...
Quote: Acting like you're fine as things are now, especially since you are living together, you have that daily opportunity to show her the new, exciting you! The one who's meeting all kinds of new people, including women (just platonic, but the suggestion of "what if" does wonders!) and doing stuff without W.
So I'm looking for more advice on detaching, and getting a life. I think I've started the ball rolling, but if anyone has any more pointers, feel free to throw them at me.
you know, I may soon be in this kind of territory, since I'm moving back in w/ H this week, but according to him "we are NOT together"- lol... But, yeah, the big plus in living w. W is that you have majorly increased opps to show her the new you. And let's face it, how can anyone be living with someone and not feel "attachment", especially our S's who we've had intimate relationship with. It's fake. So, even though they act like they are "detached" when living with us, it's more of a front, than reality. Words do not show the truth a lot of the time. She will notice what you're doing and when you go out without her a lot, that will increase the intruige for sure. Sounds like you did an awesome job w. that this weekend! Way to go!
Master the self-fulfilling prophecy.. Act 'as if' it's going to happen and make it be!!
