Renew, Popping in to see how things were going. Sounds like you are getting some great advise here. You are nervous & anxious about backing off from doing the things you have been doing which obviously have been working. Trust me I understand. You dont want to give your S any reason to doubt the new and improved you is not a permanent change. Reading your thread I see huge improvements in both you and your M. IMHO I think you are doing a great job, back off slowly from doing the little things you do for her, but only back off if you feel it is the thing to do. In reading this I see your W is like me. I love attention, back rubs, long chats, fashion shows, little post it notes around the house, etc. I am an affectionate person and it sounds like she is too. Take care of you.
Halo
Being happy doesn't mean everything's perfect.
It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfections.
I'd agree that it is important to show the S's that we can fill their needs, especially if that is a 180 for you. Think the DB secret is to do stuff they like/need but at the same time not be clingy to them, acting like we have our own fun independent life, too. The "independent" thing gets them thinking that what if someone else might come along and find us attractive at some point. Not that we are doing that, but that it could be a future possiblity. The filling needs and acting attractive part reawakens their loving feelings toward us. Kind of like an experiment to see how much of each works in your sitch. Maybe keep up w. giving the rubs/favors when she asks- but not offering them on your own at every possible opp. I know, it is a dance- but I think you are getting the hang of it! That's great OM is intimidated- all the sooner he can leave the picture, right!!! Maybe give some thought to new, exciting things you can do on your own that would interest W- something to make you seem enticing. What is she interested in? Something that you can take up, and maybe even do with others or for others as well? Often gives WAS's a wake up call when they see us doing really fun stuff that they like with others rather than them. May make her want to be the one to do whatever it is with you, then!
Master the self-fulfilling prophecy.. Act 'as if' it's going to happen and make it be!!
Halo, thanks for the advice and the encouragement. A new perspective is always helpful and welcome, and it so helps me to have others see the progress too. Sometimes we are just too close to our own sitches, getting all tripped up on the details.
As much as she seems to be enjoying them, and as much as I enjoy giving them, I do think I need to lighten up on the massages, and hope it draws her to ask for them, or maybe if I'm really lucky I'll get one.
Quote: Maybe give some thought to new, exciting things you can do on your own that would interest W- something to make you seem enticing.
Rj2, I think you're right. W was really into tennis while she was in school. I've got a tennis racket, but I've never really played, so I've been thinking I may sign up for a couple lessons. (Hmm, now if I can just find some time between work, taking care of the house, and posting here on the board...)
Rottzilla, I am in complete agreement w/ you about how the resentment sneaks up when we feel we're doing too much for them. When W started to get cranky about the massage the other morning, I was hurt--and just a little angry too--but I let it go and went off to play with the cat instead. I need to remember that the rollercoaster goes up, and the rollercoaster goes down, and the important thing is that I didn't get upset about it.
Quote: do you think it's slightly possible that she could be using OM at this point as a way to get you to keep doing these things for her? Even subconsciously?
Hmmm. Now you've got me wondering. Could be, could be...
BTW, W doesn't drink very much (and even when she does it takes her over an hour to finish one beer). I tried to offer her a glass of wine w/ dinner a few weeks ago, but she turned it down, so I'm uncertain about the opportunity there. I will keep it in mind though.
One last update, W has been offered an interview w/ another company. She needs her resume updated and asked me to help. I told her absolutely, I'd be delighted. Another 180... W had been quite upset with me a few years ago when her resume had needed updating and I had told her I didn't have the time, so I think this could be good.
VERY good, do a great job on her resume. Good opp to show her you are a great team, though, so ask her for lots of input and "does this sound good to you, I need a second opinion" type of stuff.
I was so angry at my H last night, and acted "as if" I wasn't. It wound up being a good, early night where he actually went to bed at a regular hour rather than stay up playing PS2. Had I voiced my anger, it would have pushed him away. It was nice to get some sleep. A perfect example of giving it time before you react. I can understand how you were hurt when she got angry at you. It seems right now that my H gets hugs when he needs them, but when I am needing support, I don't get any. It's all about them right now, but it helps to remember that we made the choice to make it about them. Our fault.
renew: don't be nervous about backing up a bit. My ex is a totally different person now that I have moved out of OM place. He told me that he is able to see that I am serious about working on this relationship. thats so cool making the OM jealous with your new look!!!
Rottzilla, Anita, Thanks for your posts. I've stopped initiating massages for now, and I'm staying out of her bedroom in the morning. It's a bummer for me to not be able to touch her, but it seems like the right move for now. I'll monitor and see how this goes.
W was home last night so we talked for awhile, had dinner, watched some TV...
--W and I were chatting about our activities this weekend (she's running a 10K on Sat OM signed her up for, I'm going to a Bday party for a friend on Sat). I wa asking about her availability in general so I could plan the rest of my weekend and she said half jokingly, "You're not very good at this separation stuff." I playfully replied I thought was doing fine, how was I not doing so well? She said she thought separation meant the spouses didn't hang out with each other, and I replied that I didn't think that was any fun at all. She just laughed and shook her head... hmm.
--I asked her if she could take care of refinancing our mortgage as soon as she could find the time, because my budget was a little tight from having to buy so many new clothes (weight loss). She said she would and asked if I wanted her to advance me any of my payout money. I said no, I was enjoying learning how to manage my money. That even though funds were tight, I would like to figure it out on my own.
--She had mentioned that OM's roomies keep a list to divvy up everyone's household duties. I immediately thought of Betsey's post from the other day about this sort of thing. I asked W why don't we do the same? W said, "well that's different, they're roomates," to which I replied, "well, arent' we kind of like roomates right now?" She wasn't sure how to reply. I started to talk about the all the different stuff that needs to done regularly, how I didn't know that I could handle all of it. She started to get little defensive that I had inferred that I was doing everything, defending herself by saying that she does laundry occasionally, adn that she cleaned the kitchen the other day. I bactracked and apologized. I said just think about it and let me know, I'm ok with the way things are for now... hmmmm.
--W and OM had bumped into someone we know at a restaurant. Said person saw W again at a later date and asked if she was dating that person and whther it was serious. W said she answered yes on both counts. GRRRRR.
--Later that night W and I were haning out on the sofa watching TV. I was really tired and kept dozing off. Each time she would wake up. The first couple of times she just leaned towards me and said something like "Boo!" startling me awake and us laughing. The third time she actually reached over and tickled me for a few seconds.
Quote: I've stopped initiating massages for now...
I think this is best, given the rest of this post...
Quote: "You're not very good at this separation stuff."
Does your wife see you as pursuing her? Or does she initiate all/some of this time together? This makes me uncomfortbable.
Quote: I asked W why don't we do the same? W said, "well that's different, they're roomates," to which I replied, "well, arent' we kind of like roomates right now?" She wasn't sure how to reply.
I think I like this. If she didn't know how to reply, does that sound to you like she hadn't thought of you as just roommates?
Quote:
--W and OM had bumped into someone we know at a restaurant. Said person saw W again at a later date and asked if she was dating that person and whther it was serious. W said she answered yes on both counts. GRRRRR.
UGH. Nasty. Is W feeling uncomfortable with your closeness right now and looking for new ways to distance? (blaming all your time spent together on you, not liking you touching her, but liking it at the same time, etc.)
Quote: just leaned towards me and said something like "Boo!" startling me awake and us laughing. The third time she actually reached over and tickled me for a few seconds.
Nice physical touch, this is good. I'm glad she felt that comfortable.
I think Rotzilla has broken down your last post very well, don't really have much to add in terms of analysis. I think you are holding up extremely well through all of this.
I do think Rotzilla might have some really good points. I think the division of hh duties is a good "status check" for both you and her, let her think a little about her cake binge right now. She might also feel like she needs to distance with the comments and stuff.
I know it is tough to hear and tough to believe. Especially with the mixed signals and you can "see inside" her that she really does still care for you. I know it is tough to feel so close, yet so far away. Play the game the best you know how, don't let your emotions drive the bus. LOL I wish I could always apply this myself.
Came home just to grab abite to eat. W asked me to grab a paper from across the street for article about a client. I fetched paper, came in, and read article to her. Flipped through rest of paper to see about upcoming concerts. W mentioned a particular upcoming concertina few months she said she was probably going to. I said I was also interested. W said I could go if I could handle being there with her and OM. I was quiet. She asked what I was thinking. I said no comment. She asked again. I said no comment again. She asked again. I said there's probably a ton of things part of me wants to say, but part of tells me I shouldn't say anything. Now she definitely wanted to hear what I had to say. So I opened my mouth and we started talking. And I did my best to listen twice as much as I talked. I did a good job of validating and not defending, but I also asked a lot of questions (some phrased better than others, but none of them pushy or intrusive)
What we talked about...
Us doing activities together: I said I would like it if we could do activities together. I told her that while I would like to do activities with her, I don't expect it, it's just that its difficult for me that she attends so many activities with OM, but none with me. She doesn't want us participating in activities because then we would be in a relationship and she's not ready to have a relationship with me, because she's still somehow in protection mode with me and it makes her uncomfortable, because she's honest with OM about what she and I do and he would know we were having a relationship and she doesn't want to hurt his feelings, because she's afraid of giving me false hope, because that's what she meant when she said I wasn't very good at being separated.
Her feelings for me, about us: She knows where I stand and how I feel, she feels I understand where she stands and how she feels. She feels like my behavior is the behavior of someone who cares about her, she feels I've been very patient and considerate, she feels I've been behaving like I always should have been, she feels that I do care about her and am interested in her, she feels my behavior has made her much more comfortable around me, she acknowledges that she finds me very physically attractive but is not yet attracted to be intimate with me, she said when she feels something more for me we won't need a sign--she'll know and she'll say,...
She feels that we do have a connection (communication/emotional) again but feels like part of her is retracted in a shell because of everything that happened with us--a protective shell that keeps her from getting closer to me, she feels she can occasionally peek out of that shell when she is with OM, she feels she has not been able to peek out of that shell with me, she feels that being physically close (touch) with me makes her uncomfortable because of the shell, she just doesn't know if the shell will ever go away with me. She feels like our emotional connection was what made our relationship so strong, she feels that while we had a good physical relationship it wasn't the core of the relationship (and that having the emotional as the core like we did is the right way to have a relationship), she feels that the emotional relationship core that we had is the only reason she and I are able to handle things with each other like we are right now.
She cares about me wants to see me heal and get back on my feet, she feels like she tells me so much about OM because it is a way for her to make sure she's not giving me false hope, she doesn't want to do anything to hurt me because she thinks we can still be close no matter what happens,...
Her feelings about OM: She likes OM a lot, she feels like her and OM have a lot in common (upbringing, generosity, talkativeness, painful relationships to talk about... this is not to say that I don't necessarliy have these qualities) and that these things draw them closer, she knows that OM is likes her a lot and is becoming attached to her and wants their relationship to continue forward but that she is trying to take it very slow (this being why she spends time at home with me and away from him). She thinks OM is so attracted to her because noone has ever shown him reciprocal love in relationship, she thinks OM and I are very similar in how we are behaving with her (in our behaving with patience, consideration, understanding),...
About her: She's trying to come to terms with the fact that she thinks its too late for her to have kids, she's made her career more of a priority in her life, she pretty much knows what she wants out of her life but is not entirely sure about who she'll spend it with, her choices are about her--they're not about OM and they're not about me,...
After the convo, I thanked her for being so forthcoming with me, I told her it meant a lot to me, that it helps me a lot when she shares like this with me. We seemed to be able to talk about everything without any upset, and we ended the convo well, and we said we see each other for dinner tonight.
There were probably a few things I missed. I am still reflecting on all of this, we covered a lot of stuff in an hour and a half. I am still taking it all in. I'm still not exactly sure, but it felt like it was a good conversation for both of us. I think I've made a lot of progress to date, but I feel like progress from here is going to be a different kind of progress or more difficult to make or require extra effort or require new methods or all of the above. I think I should reread DR and double up my efforts, but not make any radical changes from what I've been doing the past few months.
It's all a bit of quandary I must say. I'd love to hear someone else's opinion about all of this because I can't see the forest for the trees right now.
Maybe give some thought to new, exciting things you can do on your own that would interest W- something to make you seem enticing. What is she interested in? Something that you can take up, and maybe even do with others or for others as well? Often gives WAS's a wake up call when they see us doing really fun stuff that they like with others rather than them. May make her want to be the one to do whatever it is with you, then! 
Our fault. 