Let me clear up something I've discussed with friends. There is sex and there is making love. For a guy, there are times I want a wild romp just for the fun of it. Then there are other times when I want the emotional closeness that comes from the true intimacy of ML.
The two can be the same, but not necessarily.
I felt the closet to my W with the penetration. Definitely after the orgasm being inside her was the closest I could be to her.
Also for me, the oral sex was always just sex, not intimacy.
Quote: PATIENCE, woman! Look at Betsey --she's been waiting 18 months for her h to come around. I'm not saying you'll have to wait 18 months, but it hasn't even been two has it?
OK, I think I understand. My H also enjoys giving and receiving oral, it's his favorite. I know it is because he feels the most connected, it is so much more intimate. I guess it's good then that he has started to "give" again, just recently. I hadn't thought of that, perhaps this is an intimacy babystep.
Quote: Maybe its more important to experiment in the hope of finding things that seem to make him feel more comfortable, more relaxed, more intimate.
I think you are probably correct in this assumption. However, he has these weird "rules" that he subjects me to. Only he can iniatiate hugs, no kissing on the mouth, no staring into each other's eyes, he won't kiss or touch during ML, no hand holding. Cuddling is fine, doesn't matter who iniatiates, and putting my legs across his lap while on the couch or rubbing each other is fine. Holding his wrist (of all things) is fine. For instance, he danced with me the other day. Just out of the blue, decided to grab me in the bedroom and twirl me around a bit. But, rather than hold my hand, he held my wrists. (Boy, remembering these rules is so frustrating.)
Really, the wrist holding is the most frustrating. It's like when he kisses me on the corner of my mouth. Hey, I should be looking at this differently, I know. It's like he is testing the waters. He's close to my mouth when kissing, or close to my hands when holding me, but not quite there.
But I feel so dumb when he does that. I feel like screaming! "WHY?!?" What is the stupid, big deal about holding my hands? I hold my friend's hands. I guess he views it as too intimate. What if he held my hand? Would he be burnt by the fire in my skin? What would really happen?
You can sense my frustration with this, I'm sure.
Why on earth would he hold my WRISTS??
Quote: I might be wrong, but maybe you need to back away from the sex focus, and start trying to build intimacy at a lower PT level, like really trying to make something connective with hugs and hand holding? What might happen if the two of you just sat together once every morning holding hands (no talking, no discussion about it right away, no expectations, no judging if it is difficult) and looking into each other's eyes, say with a five minute time limit? Five minutes can actually be a very long time in someone's eyes.
This sounds like Heaven. I want hand holding more than anything else in the world right now. If you told me that I could have 5 minutes of hand holding in exchange for my eyesight, I would say no way, but I'd have to consider it for a moment.
I just asked my H these questions. He said there is a clear difference between sex and ML, and that it depends on the woman he's with, whether or not he feels love for her and how she views the acts (sex vs. ML). He said that receiving oral communicates the most love and acceptance of him. Giving oral (only to a woman who views it as an act of intimacy and trust) to be the most generous and loving. But that overall, intercourse would be the most intimate.
When we've talked about the fact that our sex life has improved 10-fold since the bomb, the only concern he's expressed is that he does feel a strong connection and lots of feelings during the act and is afraid that it's a tunnel under his walls, given the fact he's dead set on D.
Ah, I haven't had baby steps in days. Quite disappointing for the speeding freight train I was on. But, that's fine. H is depressed about something, I am content to have P and wait it out. (Couldn't bring myself to spell out that nasty P word.)
Quote: How about 5 minutes of wrist holding with quiet eye contact?
Renew, all I can say to you and to wrist holding in general is
Dazed, thanks for your frankness. I have heard from guy friends that there's a difference between sex and ML. I guess I just didn't believe H could feel like he was just having sex with me. Of course it's possible, and even probable, that this is how he views it.
Actually, I think it may be how he views it. I have made a big deal out of us just being friends, and so he has felt free from that point on to ML with me. I had hoped that ML would somehow draw us closer, as we used to do it quite a bit in the beginning of our R. But, it's been weeks and he is still not testing the waters, so to speak, during sex. So, it must be "just sex" to him. Sigh... Next goal, that one is destroyed now.
Sad, Thanks so much for asking your H, that was really nice of you. I think, like Dazed, you and your H may be dead on. I hope that tunnel under his wall winds up weakening it and it falls crashing to the ground.
I really want H to feel something for me, but I am beginning to despair about this avenue. I really liked this avenue, though.
I think I am pushing it. This is the 187th post on this thread. So, before I get locked out, here is my new thread. Please, if you came here from other countries (i.e. Newcomers, Need Support, etc.) feel free to visit my new thread and answer my desperate plea for understanding of the male mind-organ mechanism. Listening
Hi Rottzilla, I've been so wrapped up in my own stuff I havent been here for several days, interesting topic of discussion though...you did a good job of asking some questions I've wondered about but not been able to get out. I sure don't feel like I'm in any position to give much advice, but I believe your H does feel something for you. I'm kind of guessing that maybe what he feels is so strong that it adds to his confusion right now, and thats why he acts sort of weird. Is this behavior of holding your wrist and not kissing your mouth new, or is this something he's done for a long time? I guess what I'm thinking is if this is a long-standing pattern of behavior, with rigid rules to be followed, maybe it could be a bit of an obsessive-compulsive disorder type of thing? My H seems to get really down sometimes --even has been tearful...when somethings up w/the OW. This sounds horrible, but I take a certain amount of comfort sometimes from seeing him look upset/down when I know it isn't because of something that's gone on between us. so, my guess is that your H's depression is most likely related to trying to pull away from OW.... I've just tried to be supportive, offer hugs, and yet give him space, if that makes sense. As for the not opening eyes, I never thought about it...I don't think my eyes are open very much, now that I do think about it. I have had times when I opened mine and was shocked to find H's open....maybe I need to try something new there!!!!!
Honestly, Rotzilla, I know this is terribly hard and seems to take forever, (heaven knows I whine around about it enough on my thread) but it sounds to me like you are making amazing progress in a very short period of time. Just a thought that occurs to me...what if you just ml for the fun of it sometime? Sometimes I make myself whacko by analyzing everything (yes, I know, I heard you just now saying, WHAT???not you Deb!!!) lightning will probably strike if I say this, because I used to be the most hung-up person that ever lived, but anymore sometimes if I feel down or stressed or worried, I seduce H just for the fun of it . Very seldom does he not respond....and I generally feel a lot better and less worried and frankly we have fun together. Warped, I'm sure, but oh well. and of course, it's not all about sex..... Hang in. Honestly I think you're doing a great job, it sounds like your H is coming around, but is very confused right now (If I ever find the library these guys are all checking that same book out of, I'm gonna burn the place down!)
Deb, before the bomb, H would look in my eyes and touch and kiss and everything.
After the bomb Aug '03, we had a lot of sex, but I iniatiated it all. Shortly after that (a few weeks) all contact stopped. Even hugs.
After finding DB, in Feb, contact started again. But, it's not normal contact, it's that hesitant contact with many, many rules to follow that I describe.
PT is my primary LL, followed by WofA. My H has been giving me the words lately, but PT is so lacking.
I feel like Dazed said on his thread. I know I am getting sex, but I need ML. I'm not getting my PT needs fulfilled. I know, it's all about them right now, not about what we want or need.
I'm just trying to figure out what H is doing so I can be Patient.
I really want to understand a guy's point of view. As silly as that sounds. Some insight. (Thanks to all of you guys who have responded so far.)
. Very seldom does he not respond....and I generally feel a lot better and less worried and frankly we have fun together. Warped, I'm sure, but oh well. and of course, it's not all about sex.....