H is down. I have never, in all my years as his friend, known him to be depressed. But he seems to be in a bonafide depression these past few days. Says he's not upset with me, not thinking of anything wrong. He has been drinking Scotch every night, but not a lot. Just one or two. (For the past three days) He does have alcoholism in his family. I asked why he was drinking, and he said "because I like Scotch and I have it." OK...
He seemed so down this morning. Wouldn't get out of bed. All so uncharacteristic of him.
Do I distance while he is going through this? I acted "up" today, but it didn't seem to help. Usually, if I sing and dance around, it cheers him right up. So, I won't be doing that again. Don't do what doesn't work. Hmmmm.
He went to give me a hug goodbye, and I was heading downstairs to do laundry. He asked (in a very sad tone) "You don't want hugs? OK..." I said "No, I love morning hugs, they fill me up for the whole day." I let him hug me and he held onto me for some time. I could feel the sadness coming from him, like he was trying to soak up my good mood. Then, I looked for a split second in his eyes, and then presented my cheek as he was coming down to kiss me. He kissed my cheek and turned away to leave.
Oh, my PMA is so low. I have never seen my H down for more than a few hours. It is hurting me so much to see him go through this. Is he withdrawing from OW? If so, I could understand. I am just afraid he is going through something more physical.
OK, how many guys agree with the Hite Report statement that men feel closer to their sig others through ML?
And, if you think it's true that a man feels love through ML, then what do you think about my H's behavior?
I am specifically talking about the way he will only rarely touch me or open his eyes and look at me during ML.
Am I wasting my time ML with H? Or do you think that he will feel something for me no matter if he touches me with his hands or looks at me or not? Don't get me wrong, I love to be with my H, but I wouldn't have been trying to do it so much if I thought it wouldn't bring us closer.
Let me get this right. Contact on his side is limited, right? You are doing the initiating and work (for lack of better word).
This is a toughie! Guys jump in at any time. I think there could be a couple of reasons 1) he is afraid of letting you in too close. So if he "limits" his activity, he may feel safe. 2) he's not sure what he wants to do about the R, but has real feelings for you.
Seems that men usually do feel closer after ML. I know I'm not expressing this very well. Let me think some more.
When you can't make a decision because you are torn between your heart and your head, listen to the half with the brain.
he worries that you don't want his hugs anymore and then when you ML he closes his eyes. hummmm lets see here now he is depressed. Well, the Scotch just makes that worse, maybe you should conveniently run out of that stuff. Let him know that you are there for him and distance yourself a bit. He probably is withdrawing from OW a bit. He is battling right now. It seems that he has a lot of guilt that he is carrying, you can forgive him all you want, but he needs to forgive himself I think before he can open his eyes. time, patience, you know the drill. He seems to be very clingy when it comes to those hugs, it seems that you must validate erverything with a hug, when you leave for work, leave the room to do laundry--I think he was insurance that you still love him, even though you have displayed this in so many ways, right now his head is in a fog and just knowing that you are there for him is so good, but he needs to get out of this fog on his own.
Alright, I'm a guy, so I'm just gonna think out loud sort of stream-of-consciousness from my own experience for a few minutes...
My primary LL is probably PT, followed by WOA, but I've also really come to appreciate QT since it is W's primary LL. ML does make me feel very close to my W, it makes me feel like she loves me, it is rather important to me.
Before I met W, I had been able to be able to just have sex, w/o any other attachments or feelings. I'm not in a position to be able to verify this now, but I'm pretty sure I would not be able to do that anymore. I think all of that changed with W. ML with W taps directly into my emotions no matter what I'm feeling. I feel an extremely intense connection to her when we orgasm, it's like we connect on a spiritual level (note that I am NOT saying that this is the only time I feel that way with her--but a particular way that is generally reliable). I had for awhile when I was "out-of-sorts" tried to shut those feelings out, but it just caused me more hurt, hurt I wasn't acknowledging.
W would generally--not always--close her eyes during ML, I sometimes followed suit, but I preferred eyes open. It bothered me when she closed her eyes, but I don't think she was accustomed to the intensity of eyes open, I think it was a bit much for her. So instead of looking at her closed eyes, I would visually scan all of her.
With your H, the question is why does he behave the way he does when ML with you. It does seem like he's holding back his feelings, holding back on being truly intimate. But why? I'm trying to imagine why. Is he trying to hold back feelings, or is he trying to recapture old feelings for you, or maybe he is so concerned about how you feel he's afraid to look, or maybe its just too intense for him right now? I'm not sure.
I do remember reading part of a book a few months ago that was almost entirely about couples sharing PT and affection with their eyes open. The author started off talking about doing basic things like hugging and holding hands and kissing with eyes open, before moving towards ML with eyes open. It was a rather scholarly book, but also very down-to-earth and enlightening. Unfortunately I'd read it much too late to productively share it with my W. Given a future chance, I will definitely try this approach. I have recently had the chance to hold her hand a few times, and I've used it as an opportunity to look directly at her when I do. I can feel the intensity rise when this happens (which I means for my sitch I need to be careful about this for now).
Are there any other guy opinions out there? I'd actually like to hear them too.
I don't agree fully with the Hite report if that is what it said. It's like - before ex-b went to see OW last year, we ML and had a wonderful time. But he didn't consider himself in love with me, nor anytime when he's done it since.
But when he felt "in love", than it brought us closer and he felt closer.
WARNING, THIS POST IS GOING TO BE PRETTY HONEST AND STRAIGHTFORWARD ABOUT SEX. DON'T READ IT IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT.
Well, I just trolled, posted to a few other boards, let's see if we have any takers. I have received a few emails on this topic as well, with no more insight.
Renew, what you wrote was very candid, thank you. Twice now your candid posts have helped me.
Quote:
With your H, the question is why does he behave the way he does when ML with you. It does seem like he's holding back his feelings, holding back on being truly intimate. But why? I'm trying to imagine why. Is he trying to hold back feelings, or is he trying to recapture old feelings for you, or maybe he is so concerned about how you feel he's afraid to look, or maybe its just too intense for him right now? I'm not sure.
My gut feeling is that it is too intense for him, he is not ready to feel those emotions, he is hiding so that he doesn't feel it. However, perhaps he is just afraid of not feeling anything if he does look at me?
I really don't know why he is acting in this fashion.
What I really need to know is, can he do what he is (I think) trying to do? If he closes his eyes, each time we ML, does that mean he is able to effectively ward off any emotions? If he doesn't touch me (which he is starting to do, VERY slowly, every fifth or so time we ML) will he be able to hold those emotions at bay.
I know I can't control what he is feeling, but I want to know what he is doing. I want to know if it will work to do what he thinks it will.
As much of a tomboy as I have been, I still can't get that much into a guy's head. Does the physical act of penetration do it? Is it the orgasm, as you said, Renew? Is it the touching, kissing, looking into each other's eyes? Is it all of that? What about ML makes a man feel the most accepted and loved? I would think it would be the penetration, as I know that with oral sex, a man feels as if a woman who takes him into her mouth is "accepting" him. Some men view this as the ultimate act of love. So, it must be the "penetration" that does it? If so, then H is wasting his time by not touching me/looking at me. If it's everything, or the visual connection, or just a combination of things, then H is robbing me (in a sense) of the emotions he is feeling during ML.
OK, I didn't mean for it to sound like that. I know he has to come around when he is ready. I really am just trying to understand what is going on in his head and why he does these things.
Quote: OK, how many guys agree with the Hite Report statement that men feel closer to their sig others through ML?
Well, I'm not a guy, but my dh said he "felt guilty" ML with me when he wasn't feeling love for me. Of course, since he dropped the bomb and moved out, we ML constantly and he doesn't hold back, but he still isn't "in love" with me, so who the hell knows??
Quote: And, if you think it's true that a man feels love through ML, then what do you think about my H's behavior?
I think though sex and love aren't necessarily linked in a guy's mind, it is much different when he's in love with the person he's ML to. It hasn't been all that long since he dropped the bomb on you, rotzilla (there's that P work again). He's probably still confused, still working things out, still wondering if he can "love" you again the way he used to. If he caresses you and kisses you and all of that, it's much more intimate than just sex. He may be afraid that it will create feelings in him he's not sure he wants -- or afraid that it won't.
Quote: Am I wasting my time ML with H?
PATIENCE, woman! Look at Betsey --she's been waiting 18 months for her h to come around. I'm not saying you'll have to wait 18 months, but it hasn't even been two has it? I have the same problem with lack of patience, but you CAN'T rush it. Susan
Quote: WARNING, THIS POST IS GOING TO BE PRETTY HONEST AND STRAIGHTFORWARD...
Oh my.
I'm just free associating again...
Quote: If he closes his eyes, each time we ML, does that mean he is able to effectively ward off any emotions?
Probably not.
Quote: What about ML makes a man feel the most accepted and loved?
A variety of things for me, and the actual penetration part is NOT at the top of the list. I feel extremely connected to W when I give her oral. It is something I enjoy giving very much. It makes me feel very connected to her, very in touch with her moment to moment existence. She was rather shy about receiving for awhile, but once she realized how pleasurable it was for her, once she accepted that I really enjoyed giving this, she let me more and more.
W was had early on been somewhat insecure about ML outside the boundaries of missionary style, and it took her awhile to try other things. It bothered me for quite sometime that wife would not give me oral, not because I felt it was necessary to our love life, but because it bothered her so much to give it. It was never something I felt was necessary to a satisfying love life, but I did feel it was something she could learn to much more comfortable with.
Quote: I really am just trying to understand what is going on in his head and why he does these things.
I hope this doesn't look too much lik a 2x4, but maybe its really not that important to figure this out right away. Maybe its more important to experiment in the hope of finding things that seem to make him feel more comfortable, more relaxed, more intimate. I might be wrong, but maybe you need to back away from the sex focus, and start trying to build intimacy at a lower PT level, like really trying to make something connective with hugs and hand holding? What might happen if the two of you just sat together once every morning holding hands (no talking, no discussion about it right away, no expectations, no judging if it is difficult) and looking into each other's eyes, say with a five minute time limit? Five minutes can actually be a very long time in someone's eyes.
Oh my.