LBS becomes the WS. The price of peace.

[asitis]

I was replying to Zeus and thought I should include this update here.

Their is a fundamental Buddhist meditation of love and compassion where you one by one bring people into your focus, and meditate on showing them compassion and love. The Buddhist interpretation of love, even romantic love is to unselfishly wish happiness, enlightenment for the other person, and nothing in return. As soon as we have any "requirements" of that person, it is not pure love, it is flawed and doomed to bring misery.

Eventually we can bring every sentient being in the world into this focus. I can include my STBX. Including the OM is a struggle though. So how do you know when it works? How do you know when you have successfully shown compassion and love and wish only for that persons happiness? This is a problem with all meditations.

BUT I have discovered something, it hit me in one go, but the reality was I had to practice this many times to realise it. First of course start with a breathing meditation, and then bring your children into focus. It is so easy to feel pure love for your children. Even if I stop here - I find I am in a beautiful place for hours.

OK - so now hat I really wanted to say - it occurred to me after one of these meditations that I had never focused on myself. And you know what - I finally understand, after 43 years what it means to love yourself.

Hi Py,

I've been catching up on your sitch. Sounds like you've given this some careful thought, and we all need to make decisions that feel right for ourselves.

One quick wrinkle on Metta meditation is that part of the practice of wishing love for those we have problems with is to discover the obstacles to an open heart in us. Then we know where we have to work on ourselves. So, one aspect is aspirational, another is the same as any meditation using a focus, but the last is diagnostic. It is not necessarily strictly speaking for the other person, but to help us not be blocked or triggered by any person that comes into our lives so that we can respond to them as we choose to rather than how our reactive habits goad us into responding.

The one other thing that jumps out to me is including the kids in the calculus of when we are done waiting and give up. It isn't clear whether you would still keep the possibility of R open to your W if she came and asked. That is only the beginning of the process, and it is then that the hard work begins where you both have to heal and see if the trust can be restored with the knowledge you have both gained through this painful process. For me, I know that this will remain a possibility, but only through the process of seeing if we can really work things out will we know if R can be achieved. I will love her regardless. I also know that I want to give it every chance I can for my kids. And I know that this could happen in an R & that they will all be hard work. If the M does end up irrevocably broken, I'll still have a lot of hard work as co-parent for a couple decades plus hard work on any new Rs I get in. I'm therefore much more open to keeping the door open to my W to at least make the effort.

Now in the meantime, the puzzle to me becomes at what point do I move on w/ my life while still leaving that door open a tiny crack? I'm not near there yet, as in my case there are some mixed signs still. I'll also admit that the lack of an A makes my sitch different. There is nothing that says that you have to wait patiently forever in hopes that they'll come back, or that this means the M is truly totally, irreversibly dead when you choose to stop waiting.

So the question then is when have I reached that point. Obviously if I get in a committed R with someone else, I have definitely have to make a choice to leave the old M behind. But short of that, when for me is it OK to move on?

I'm faced with a number of tough questions. Is it fair to get involved with someone else if I am still keeping the door cracked to my W because of the kids & my personal choice based on my beliefs and values? I recognize that temptation of an interesting, attractive, and interested woman will make some kind of calm, well thought out decision in the moment difficult. I don't know how I'll ultimately choose. I'll have to navigate that choice carefully. Even if I'm open about where I'm coming from, is it fair to this other person?

The other tough question is at what point is it OK with me in terms of the status of my M with my W? Is it fine if/when she says she'd like to start dating? When she takes up with someone else? Or only when the D is finalized? Obviously you have reached the point of when she takes up with someone else, and I haven't. I still wonder, and honestly, I haven't come up with an answer.

I recognize that there will be a little part of me that will want to say fine, so will I & we'll see how you like it, if she either says she wants to start dating or takes up with someone else. Again, that doesn't seem fair to anyone I would get involved with, but combine that with some genuine attraction and interest, it will be hard to see through that fog and make a good evaluation.

There are a lot of tough choices for us LBSs. None of this is something we asked for. And ultimately it is up to each of us to decide what the answers are for ourselves and our families.

I'm glad you've given this a lot of thought, and also that you have shared your thinking and provoked the rest of us to think more about those choices for ourselves.

[Pyrite]

hi AsItIs,

thankyou for your post. I am going to point some people I have been cheating to towards it. It nicely summaries, where we are and/or where we should be and the questions we should be asking ourselves.

i have a great deal more to say about it, and will endeavour to do so throughout the day. Unfortunately there is this annoying little thing called work that I am committed to

-Py

[Pyrite]

As - part 1 at least

It is not necessarily strictly speaking for the other person, but to help us not be blocked or triggered by any person that comes into our lives

Is this the wrinkle? Honestly, I have only ever though of it as being of benefit to me. Directly anyway that is. The 2nd point, this is why I suggested focusing on your children first as there are no obstacles or triggers that block us. Actually for most people this "pure love" probably already exists or t least a strong heartfelt, genuine desire to feel it.

so that we can respond to them as we choose to rather than how our reactive habits goad us into responding.

Amen!! This sums up the whole point. Thank you.

[asitis]

You might like some of Charlotte Joko Beck's (and her heirs) work. The are about the most psychological of the Zen tradition, and a number of her heirs are psychoanalysts. Barry Magid's Ending the Pursuit of Happiness, as well as Beck's one Everyday Zen and Nothing Special are very helpful. I also really like Norman Fischer's (one of Suzuki's heirs) Training in Compassion: Zen Teachings on the Practice of Lojong (Lojong is a Tibetan practice that I've found very helpful, and the outside perspective of Fischer is very illuminating).

On the doing it for yourself, that is one sense, but in another, it is so you can help others because you are able to bring compassion into their lives. And Metta might not literally send out good vibes, but it is incredible how it changes the way we send body language and relate to those people in my experience.

[Pyrite]

As,

The one other thing that jumps out to me is including the kids in the calculus of when we are done waiting and give up.

Absolutely. I do however migrate between the extremes of sacrificing everything for the sake of the kids and looking out for ONLY my own interests. My position now, and the reality of what will likely happen I suppose is between these, but definitely skewed towards R for the kids sake, or at least trying to R.

It isn't clear whether you would still keep the possibility of R open to your W if she came and asked.

Although my journalling of late has largely been about how the M was crap, our R crap, my W flawed (possibly beyond repair) - if she came and asked I couldn't turn her down. I think it is a hangup for the LBS imagining what they will say in this case. I suspect it is yet another waste of time for us to be considering. IF the prospect of R is ever on the cards, I can't really imagine that it will be this straightforward. My W coming forward and saying "I'm done with OM. It was a mistake. Can we try to R?"

I imagine that our current adversarial R will soften, we might gradually become friends. She might stay to watch a movie with the kids. One day after many such encounters our hands will touch, I will grasp her fingers, eventually we might kiss, and then the hard work, as you describe, will begin.

At any rate, I suspect that WE will be in a different position than we are today anyway. And we won't feel the same way about anything.

So, worrying about what we might say, or do, I don't think this is helpful to anyone, apart from being "part of the process". I am sick of running around with this. I have decided, and I am satisfied to leave it at this: IF she ever does ask for R I will simply answer "I need time to consider my response".

[Pyrite]

Now in the meantime, the puzzle to me becomes at what point do I move on w/ my life while still leaving that door open a tiny crack?

whats wrong with now? Isn't getting on with your life what you are doing? I have been having these conversations alot lately it seems. Life has not stopped around us. We haven't stopped either. Most of us here recognize that we are on a path of growth, and this process of grief simply evolves with us. So why/when does this path end? When is the grief over? Talking to both my Mum and my Dad, D'ed for over 20 years - it never ends - it just fades.

I'm not near there yet, as in my case there are some mixed signs still. I'll also admit that the lack of an A makes my sitch different. There is nothing that says that you have to wait patiently forever in hopes that they'll come back, or that this means the M is truly totally, irreversibly dead when you choose to stop waiting.

it is DEAD now. short of death - nothing is irreversible. forever, truly, irreversible, totally - IDK, maybe I am regaining my composure, but the greyness is creeping back in to my life. It has always existed. I forcefully superimposed black and white, binary interpretations and expectations. they were never really there.

So the question then is when have I reached that point. Obviously if I get in a committed R with someone else, I have definitely have to make a choice to leave the old M behind. But short of that, when for me is it OK to move on?

I would suggest, 2nd-ing Cadet's advice above - that you make that break BEFORE you start a new R. You are moving on now. You just can't see it because you are moving with it, and that is just where you are. It's like my kids hardly grow, recognisably, but my nephews - every few months when I see them they've grown heaps. A few months back were you even considering OW in the same light you are now? In a few more months I bet WE will think differently again.

I'm faced with a number of tough questions. Is it fair to get involved with someone else if I am still keeping the door cracked to my W because of the kids & my personal choice based on my beliefs and values? I recognize that temptation of an interesting, attractive, and interested woman will make some kind of calm, well thought out decision in the moment difficult. I don't know how I'll ultimately choose. I'll have to navigate that choice carefully. Even if I'm open about where I'm coming from, is it fair to this other person?

firstly, you dont need to answer any questions. I'm guilty of the same BUT ask yourself this (I ask d4 this all the time): What answer would you be satisfied with?

It probably isn't fair, BUT I will take the bet that if you OR I are in a position, in a R, where the emotional connection is even valid enough to possibly consider something of the magnitude of "leaving the crack open" - then I doubt we will be framing the argument this way in our minds. Consider you have a wonderful R, but it ends in 2 years. So does your W. Does this mean R with our W is off the table in 5 years time?

I know of a couple that R after 19 years! Both having M's and kids in between.

[Pyrite]

On the doing it for yourself, that is one sense, but in another, it is so you can help others because you are able to bring compassion into their lives. And Metta might not literally send out good vibes, but it is incredible how it changes the way we send body language and relate to those people in my experience.

vibes - yeah this is what I mean. I don't think it is like performing Reiki or anything.

You are right - it is incredible - IDK nor do I really care to quantify it, but there is a ratio of how differently do I perceive others reactions : how different actually are their reactions

[Pyrite]

thanks for the book recommendations - i am almost up to needing a new book..

Zeus and I had an exchange about this - responding to ex W's request for R, how much of our response of NO - would be for our benefit, and how much for theirs.

i stand by my (possibly gutless) response - "i need time to consider a response". the best part is that stressing over what i might say has been laid to rest.

it's a win/win. non-evasive, noncommittal, not yes or no. i should be a politician

[asitis]

By moving on with my life, I was really meaning moving on to dating other women and being open to new romantic relationships. I certainly am all for moving on with life. It is too short, and we never know when it will end. Live life. I spent too many years suffering my own kind of not living my life to ever want to go back to that.

So, I should have specified moving on in the relationship sense. I'm not ready to do that. I don't think it would be fair the other person, and I don't think it would be helpful to me at this point.

Will I do things that might even be date-like? Absolutely. I want to go to concerts & movies & what not. If my W isn't going to want to with me, I'm not sitting at home. If it is with another woman because that's who wants to go & I enjoy her company, that's what I will do. It will be clear at the outset though that that is what it is. I'm not ready to date another woman no matter how much I miss the intimate companionship and thrill of feeling wanted and desired.

Does that clarify it?

[asitis]

thanks for the book recommendations - i am almost up to needing a new book..

Zeus and I had an exchange about this - responding to ex W's request for R, how much of our response of NO - would be for our benefit, and how much for theirs.

i stand by my (possibly gutless) response - "i need time to consider a response". the best part is that stressing over what i might say has been laid to rest.

it's a win/win. non-evasive, noncommittal, not yes or no. i should be a politician

Absolutely. Nothing is a sure thing any more. I'm not the desperate puppy chasing after her. Trust has to be built on both sides. How she approaches & for what reasons do matter. Is it because she is lonely? OK, I will likely entertain a little doesn't change anything comfort. I still love & am attracted to the woman, and as long as there are no false expectations, then I can't imagine not taking the bonding opportunity and comfort that I did cherish even if it is just for a night or two. Is it because she is reeling from a failed R herself? Um, no. Work that out and then get back to me. Is it that she sincerely wants to invest herself and make a try at reconciliation? Unless I've committed to another, I'd proceed on a slow steady program with lots of groundrules and conditions (e.g., she keep up her IC, that if there had been OM there would be testing, that we start as friends and take it from there, that we at some point re-enter MC to work on the real R problems that will need to be addressed).

So, I think there can not be a one-sized-fits-all answer once you get to the stage where you realize that reconciliation will be a long process and only after that process has played out will either of us be able to make the decision to reunite.