Zelda - Baby One More Time

[Zelda09]

V, thank you for this post. It makes much more sense to my heart.
Trying to see the abnormal as normal or justified or forgive-able has kept me questioning myself and stuck here. It's one of the reasons I wanted our thread on abuse. Trying to hold to core foundations. My experience must be validated before his. Abuse is abuse, and I will not be abused. I didn't cause it and I can't change it. I gave him the opportunity to address it three times and he declined. Therefore I must be grateful for a simple divorce, granted in two weeks.

[Vanilla]

Z

If you want to explore forgiveness then there are a couple of books I can recommend, the first is by Jeanne Safer forgive and not forgive and of course there is Scott Pecks book on evil, People of the Lie. Ironically both books were written in the same era.

The premise is, it isn't our job to forgive, only the spirit can forgive. Forgiveness requires that the one requiring forgiveness is asking and atoning for forgiveness and then we can choose or be chosen to become a channel for it. Forgiveness requires that transgressors request and targets channel.

There is no obligation on me to forgive WH, the spirit requires that I request forgiveness for my transgression, that of screaming banshee, neglect, and any harm to others through the damage WH did through me. It requires I advise at least one other person and that I atone.

As a result of my weaknesses I do not blame WH for his actions, I do not condone or agree, but I let go of my anger and eventually my hurt and just merely walk away. Leaving only love behind and my best prayers that he finds peace. That may mean asking forgiveness and atoning, in which case I am likely to forgive. The higher spirit will allow that.

To forgive without the full process is to enable the harm. If we can forgive then that is our gift to the higher spirit. It is our right but not our obligation.

I do not condemn after all I have my faults and that is not my role either, that is the spirits role.

Ultimately the higher spirit will bring the overdrawn account to a closure on behalf of every one of us. I ask is the abuser, compulsive, wayward, or MLC happy in their life, maybe, sometimes. There is an emptiness in their soul which is temporarily filled with activity, substances and distraction. I think on waking they cannot but see the hole which needs to be filled. As fast as it's filled it leaks, like a bath with no plug, the tap must be forever full on to stay partially full.

I like 12 steps as a process and I have a great admiration for DB which is about personal growth, becoming through adversity and developing into the best we can be. It is a process beyond repairing M or fending off D, it includes it but is not wholly that. It is because of the spirit here which in continuum applies those principles.

It is my hypothesis that those who cause damage fall into three camps, those that can because of situations and those that do deliberately who are in parlance evil. I place myself in the third and last camp, a reactor, the damage done was mainly to myself, I doubt WH was damaged by screaming banshee, I think it amused him to press those buttons. None the less the screaming banshee damaged others in my life, my inability to perform at work, my poor performance as a friend etc. besides the pain for glam sis and aged pa.

This is my own unique analysis on it and I am testing my hypothesis and so far it holds.

Those who do not awake and follow their journey who believe it is finished when the D paper is signed miss something important, they miss their spiritual journey to self, and to healing. I struggle with healing, a full mechanism has not yet been uncovered. I leave my love and project it that is enough to have loved, even though that may be unwanted, that is mine to give.

It seems unchristian to decide that forgiveness is not my job. In essence it is about control, I have control over only me, to forgive someone who does not request or want forgiveness is like trying to hold them accountable and tying them to you in deed. It creates a debt, makes me the burden of a creditor, gives me baggage. It is not my role to forgive nor to condemn, it is my role to heal and to let the spirit do its work for others.

A friend did me a great damage many years ago, quite deliberately, a financial damage in business, after 15 years I received a letter with a cheque and a short note which read " if you can forgive me, that's good and if you don't want this recompense then please donate it as you chose. I have been saddened by my choice and have not yet forgiven myself".

I banked the cheque and wrote one for Plan International, I chose a child in my friends name to sponsor for 12 years and I let her receive the information about the sponsored child for 12 years. I hope it brought her peace, at some point in those 12 years a glimmer of it. Otherwise I did not respond. I let the universe and higher power forgive, she had atoned.

I hope this explains my stance

V

[asitis]

V, as usual, makes some good points.

I'd add in cases of abuse, it is often enough just to work on forgiving yourself. All that self-criticism and feeling guilty for "allowing" the abuse, not loving yourself, etc. Until you feel you've been able to do that, you won't be able to truly forgive the abuser I suspect. If forgiveness for him comes as part of your process of working through your own issues, then it was the right thing at the right time. If not, it's not the right thing at that time or even the right thing for you. Not really something you try - esp. early on - but something that seems to be necessary at some point in the process (or not).

I also want to add that I'm really pleased to see the markedly better place you are in. Even when you are struggling with these kinds of things, you are in a much healthier place than a few weeks ago. You may not always feel like it, but you are doing great.

[Zelda09]

A friend did me a great damage many years ago, quite deliberately, a financial damage in business, after 15 years I received a letter with a cheque and a short note which read " if you can forgive me, that's good and if you don't want this recompense then please donate it as you chose. I have been saddened by my choice and have not yet forgiven myself".

I banked the cheque and wrote one for Plan International, I chose a child in my friends name to sponsor for 12 years and I let her receive the information about the sponsored child for 12 years. I hope it brought her peace, at some point in those 12 years a glimmer of it. Otherwise I did not respond. I let the universe and higher power forgive, she had atoned.

Absolutely beautiful and heart-warming.

V, and Asitis, thank you for talking through this bit about forgiveness.

My IC often asks how I got to a place of total detachment with my father, even tho he still calls and rants and is nasty on occasion. I told her, I just had enough of believing he could change. Saw it was impossible. Saw that I pitied him.

She looks at me like it is very obvious that I need to get there with my STBX, but romantic feelings I think add some complexity. And STBX was usually much more subtle except when he wasn't. I don't think I had enough volume of offenses. AND I was still getting good feelings, reinforcement (YAY, THIS is why we're together, aren't I happy right now!) from the R, which ceased a long time ago with my father.

Have I forgiven my father? I don't know. I don't think so. When he tries to tell me he has been my greatest supporter (not true in any one direction, PS, all the man has done since I was 15 was viciously drunkenly tear me down, no financial support either), I usually bite my tongue. Until he keeps on and he gets a good earful from me. Most of our 'conversations' are one sided anyway, I do make an effort to pick up the phone and let him go on, because at one time he was my very best friend when I was a little kid. And I still respect and love that part of him, and I feel that if by listening and pretending to be a daughter he thinks he loves so much, it eases any pain, then fine. Does my dog remember the day I take her to the dog park? Not really. But she's happy at the time and that counts. But he is mostly a very unfunny joke I've heard too many times and other than stoking anger - i think at the wounds I've not forgiven him for - he has zero affect on me.

In short, yes, I've been putting the cart before the horse in trying to forgive and understand STBX.

It is disrespectful to me to do so, when after that night, he sneered, he smirked, almost seemed excited at the damage he'd done...told me he didn't care to think about things, he didn't care to think how he'd hurt me, he didn't care to address his anger or temper and couldn't guarantee it wouldn't happen again, our marriage was over and he wanted to sleep around. A day after telling me how lucky he was and what a great future we were going to have.

He got what he wanted, I believe. Freedom from me and whatever misery he felt, PLUS a way to cry and claim he was kicked out of the house, as though he'd tried and tried to remedy this. Poor STBX, he really wanted his M to work out, what a sad song he sings...the day after he left the house we ran into each other. I watched him talking to a mutual friend, before he saw me, shrugging and shaking his head, her giving him one of those deep hugs of comfort...he certainly wasn't showing the face I'd seen the day before - I know I sound like a broken record, I still can't make sense out of what kind of man he must have been to play these tricks.

To your point, Asitis, who I was to fall for them...

And still I wonder, is it me that is messed up? Is he going about the rest of his life, kind and lovely now? I know it's not rational, but it's what keeps boiling under the surface.

It shouldn't matter. It shouldn't matter because I need to stay with my experience of that week, and the times before I should have never excused. My boundaries sinking lower and lower. The girl I was when I met him would have drawn the line a long time ago. And did. But I kept taking him back because he was tall, handsome, kind, and I felt more love in the 'good' times than I'd ever felt with any other partner.

So...not forgiving him means this to me - it was not ok to treat me like that. To lie to me, to use me, to play these selfish games. It was not ok to tell me all the ways I was cruel (not letting his ex meet his emotional needs - "she's so much easier to talk to, Z. I can't explain it. Why do you have such a problem with this, you'd rather me suffer just because you can't be the friend I need?") It was not ok to leave me places and it is not ok with me that he was trying to sleep with me in one breath as he was telling me he wanted to date other people.

To forgive him for any of this - without his asking or atoning or even recognizing the hurt - it says that nothing wrong happened here. That it is ok he behaves this way toward me.

That is the problem. I always, always, forgave him, tried to see his side, talk it out. The times I didn't...he shrugged and seemed ok that our relationship was ending. And I couldn't stomach that so I would push me further out of the way to understand him and reconcile and make peace.

It is getting easier now. I no longer feel the desperation I'd been feeling. There are still times I cry and it's ok, they seem to be shorter storms and I don't hope for his call. I am having an easier time visualizing the hearing and walking out of it detached. I imagined he will not say anything unexpected or make a scene and it will be over quickly, simple dissolution.

I do struggle still with his face. Seeing it in pictures, remembering it. How not to look at him and see the loving, gentle, wonderful H I did for so many years. I still can't see him, and first see the raging, nasty or entirely aloof creature. I wish I could. Even his name, reading it written on paper, conjures good feelings and memories before the bad ones. I still feel so attached in this way. I would like to reverse all that, and look at him and see his face simply as a mask for what I really know lies beneath. But my tender little heart strings still see the man I would chase if he gave me the slightest reason.

[asitis]

I know from talking with & reading about other abuse survivors that it is incredibly painful and confusing. I also know I can't really know, as I haven't experienced it directly, so I don't want to diminish what you are feeling. Still, I want to answer some of your questions.

Is there something wrong with you? No. Absolutely. Not!!! Part of the reason abusers get away with it & the abused doesn't put a stop to it is largely a combination of brainwashing manipulation of the abuser & socialization by a culture that normalizes male privilege & aggression, female subordination and neediness and need to complete themselves by finding the appropriate man. Just think of all those stories in pop culture where women need to be rescued, are dependent, and are thankful that they have a strong, aggressive, domineering man who protects her from the other strong, aggressive, domineering, but not as nice man. Think about the role models in your parents & other relatives. What did they teach you about what the proper role of a woman is, especially about a good woman attends to the needs of her man. Even if intellectually you rejected that, it is almost certain you internalized some of that view.

The abuser exploits that socialization. The abuser is learns to get their needs met by manipulating the abused in a way that allows him to sustain that. This won't be the first abusive relationship he's been in, and very likely he learned at the knee of an established master. There is a lot of skill built up over time. The manipulation does re-wire neuropathways that contribute to the victim staying and struggling with all these confusing thoughts even after they've broken away. So, no it is not your fault.

Now does that mean that there isn't damage that needs to be addressed and healed? No. In a sense, there now is something that interferes with you leading a life of fulfilment and happiness. It is the lingering gift of the abuser. The good news is that the brain is surprisingly plastic, and those neuropathways can be rewired with therapy, the healthy support of others, and time.

So, give yourself a break on feeling confused & even a bit crazy. You aren't. You are recovering, and that will take work and time.

Be gentle on yourself and don't add self-blame to the pain you are already in.

And, thanks for all your help over on my thread. I appreciate it a lot.

[Vanilla]

I think (for a number of reasons in particular the first chapter) you would get a great deal from the Jeanne book on forgiveness. If I had the way to do it I would gift it to you.

There is an NLP technique which could help you with the visual aspects of your WH face. Ironically it's called reframing, it's very potent so be careful. there was a TV program with Paul McKenna It is on Utube I can change your life program 1, there is a woman who has obsessive thoughts about her ex. I am slightly disbelieving of it, well very, but it's fascinating stuff.

Asitis, love your posts

V

[Vanilla]

I do struggle still with his face.

Seeing it in pictures, remembering it.

How not to look at him and see the loving, gentle, wonderful H I did for so many years. I still can't see him, and first see the raging, nasty or entirely aloof creature. I wish I could.

Your concious mind wants to do this I think and your subconscious mind is holding the current programming.. The subconcious mind is a whole load of embedded programs so change that and the whole addiction sensation will change.

Even his name, reading it written on paper, conjures good feelings and memories before the bad ones. I still feel so attached in this way.

There is a belief embedded in this I think. Your WH has with your permission and behaviour trained you to feel this. Without disrespect (because my WH did the same) its classic Pavlov response, it's the way they target us by anchoring pleasant feelings in us by using certain triggers in this case WH name. By knowing the triggers then you can pattern interrupt the response.

I would like to reverse all that, and look at him and see his face simply as a mask for what I really know lies beneath.

You can chose to use your conscious mind to swap these images, there a number of techniques, including using projection, and superimposing one image over another.

But my tender little heart strings still see the man I would chase if he gave me the slightest reason.

Know this is your addiction talking.

You are getting there, now you see the mask, what would happen if your WH removed it? Can you let your mind do that? Can you identify your triggers?

V

[Zelda09]

V, let's see. I think we are getting somewhere because this is the difficult part that I believe is at the root of my struggle.

I simply am not sure that what I've seen and experienced is what it is.

Despite friends and family validating. It does help - to know that others firmly say no excuse. To hear others' tales of his dark side that came out after the accident, even publicly, people saying they saw it at board meetings and what have you. To hear our closest friends explaining the ways he lashed out at them even, having him tell my girlfriend to stay away from me...

V, here is where I think our H's ARE different. Yours was aggressive and abusive over nonsense. Mine was pleasant, aloof, okay with whatever I did or didn't do in my own space. He would even cite this in arguments if I complained at him - "Z, am I ever critical of you? You are the one unhappy with me all the time."

So, I do struggle with trying to see -

Was his a reactive abuse?

The time he pushed me off the dock - it was jealousy and ridiculous.

Strange, aggressive things he would say to me, the abandonment, physical intimidation - he never started anything, this is how he would react if he perceived criticism or disappointment. And not always. The hot points were conversations about career, our future - marriage and family, his medical case. Defensive aggressive. It's amazing I ever got married when I think of those fights. And the ones that were starting to develop over family. This is why I happen sometimes to think it was not simple abuse but personality disordered, borderline. I would get silent treatments or rages if I gave the slightest intimation that he was disappointing me or in the beginning, if he thought I was growing tired and thinking of leaving. The silent treatment lasted an entire airport and plane ride one time because I asked him what he thought to do about a job...his explanation was, "I just figured you were thinking of leaving me."

He never started anything.


Which is the mask? Or is he just messed up with issues, like anyone?

I go back and forth, A LOT. To the point I think I am guilty of that famous 'splitting' behavior sometimes.

A. My normal, wonder STBX: A bit lazy and without direction, but kind, thoughtful, reliable. Witty, graceful. Could be counted on for breakfast, looking out that I was eating, was there anything he could do for me? The guy that built things for me, lovely things. Was so proud of me, privately and publicly. Organized big birthday parties for me. So supportive and encouraging of my dreams. Capable of wonderful conversation, everything from science to religion. I admired his creativity, his unconventional look at many things.

B. My STBX, the sociopath weirdo Let's talk about red flags and inexcusables I should have noticed, perhaps?

The way he first would mechanically repeat things people had said in casual conversation, like a counselor, "So L, you're saying...". They'd screw up their eyes, and just say, "Yes...that's what I said." I noticed when we were dating that he didn't add much to conversations in general, just sort of absorbed whatever. With me it was different.

The way he would shift and morph into a child when at dinner parties anyone asked him what he did for a living. This changed post accident when he could proudly say, "I am recovering." Like a three year old telling its age.

The way he would over-react to things, as explained above. The anger, that was there before the accident. I saw it then. I remember telling a friend when we were dating there was a strange darkness in him I couldn't quite put my finger on. He would also over-react and panic in situations that left him looking like a frantic little kid, no one else understanding the urgency or drama.

I don't remember it pre-accident, but there was a lot of emphasis on people needing to be there for each other, him needing people to teach him about himself, his triggers...that I wasn't prepared to be a caretaker (well after he was walking and well), the talks about suicide, how he needed to depend on someone and couldn't trust me, couldn't trust I was looking out for his best needs. Of course this morphed into wanting to be with someone else that would make him happier, and that I was simply an unhappy person and he'd done his best to support me, but realized I was miserable and he couldn't change that.

The creep voice, I talked about it earlier in my posts. No one ever saw that dark slimy stuff but me. The father knows best personality, fine, people can and get rather self righteous. But that creep stuff, the talk about his little head in a guillotine basket, the defenses of violence in our society, hints 'before I hurt myself or someone else,' the time I saw him typing to a woman, 'come on A, you can talk to me about this, come on' when he clearly didn't want to talk to him about that...asking about her masturbation/bisexual life, it was all so creepy.

Fired from every job he ever had, basically for childish reactions to superiors, or just unbelievably stupid mistakes that cost the companies money and equipment. I hate to even bring this up, but all the witnesses that day saw him cross three lanes and rear end a stopped semi- full speed, in broad daylight. He could never say what happened.

The worst, the smirking/smiling thing. He almost seemed excited about what he'd done that night afterward, "H, what are you going to do about this?"..."Well Z, the real question I think, is, what are you going to do about it?" I still feel in my gut he was absolutely happy showing me how little he cared, finally free of having to pretend.

The Photos, Memories

Were we happy? Was my H beautifully calm, happy to stroll from shop to shop, interested in the things I was, dreaming dreams with me? Did he love me the way it seemed?

Or was he detached and aloof, happy to have something to do and someone to buy him lunch? Did he enjoy the acting of a man in love, the novelty of a fiance, a wife?

Subconscious v Conscious

V, I see it more as rational vs. emotional.

I know that many of these things he did and said were not remotely normal, but because of who I thought he was at CORE, I figured as he grew older and we grew our trust, it would smooth out. I always saw him in the past as my loving and at times, ridiculous, H.

Let the storm pass, talk about it, hope it doesn't come again. And in some ways, we really did work on many issues, but it was like wackamole...they just kept manifesting in sneakier or more disturbing ways. "H, no matter how upset you are, four letter words, name calling, insults, never appropriate..." So I would get the more creative, sublte, and psychoanalytical put downs. When he was no longer allowed to scream nastiness at me, he could still act exasperated like he was trying to explain to a stupid child what was wrong with them.

Rationally, I saw all of this. And said he is human, I am happy most of the time with this man. He's volatile and irrational sometimes, fine.

Because

Emotionally, I loved cuddling up under his big wing span, I found him beautiful and in need of a savior, I was so excited about building my life with this soulful, kind, creative man. I felt like the amount and intensity of love I'd felt with him justified whatever else may come, and I admired his interest in self improvement and 'introspection' after the neglect he'd experienced growing up. Emotionally, he could lift me higher than most men, whom I'd found somewhat boring.

I wanted to be there for him the way he wanted someone to be there for him. From the beginning.

Our Pattern

V, I think part of my struggle is quite consciously expecting this is just a bigger repeat of an established pattern. And maybe THIS time we will learn from it all and be ok and be happy, consistently.

The first time I broke it off with him, when he shoved me at that party, he first acted fine about it. Then, sulking, crying, "it doesn't matter now, does it?" when I tried to talk to him about what happened. Days later, he would put himself in front of me socially, at work, at I was rather cold and business. Then I reached out to him again and we had a good long talk and came to understanding how it would never happen again. 6 years ago.

The second time, I had a basket of laundry thrown at me and absolute nasty verbal abuse. Broke it off. Fine Z, "you're never interested in how we got here." "H, we've been through this before, you know that doesn't matter." He went out and about, looking well, happy, normal, adjusted, we'll be happier without each other. That got under my skin, made me question if I was in the wrong. And so I pursued. We talked, reconciled. With me convincing it did matter.

Our separation, he flipped me off after those two weeks walled away, was quite nasty. I told him to get out. Lots of crying/coldness. BD at MC. Total coldness. We decided to S. "Are we going to be ok, Z?" Crying. Hot, cold, hot cold. You guys know how this goes. But I pursued. No longer angry about his behavior, the EAs, the disrespect, man, I was going to DR this sitch. And sort of did and we pieced.

The day I confronted him, and he let the mask slip, quite pleased with himself. The day after, some laughter, some crying to himself. The day after, he presented me with a check for the money he'd stolen out of my account during that awful week, and when I asked if he would have given it back if I hadn't said something, I got the familiar, "Doesn't matter now, does it?" He did show up to a couple of events I was going to be at. I ran into him once. He walked around looking well as rain. But, I didn't pursue. My bestie said it looked like the biggest game of chicken he ever saw.

Finally that day in the cafe, my gut feeling was he was posturing over wanting the D papers signed. As soon as I agreed he got nasty about it and when I went to get it notarized that day, he pulled out one of the papers I wanted signed, and so we didn't. A week later he had a professional employed, 3rd party, and demanded my signature. I obliged. He then drug his feet for three months and was generally verbally abusive by text when i asked him why he wasn't signing and what needed to happen to get the show on the road.

My heart broke when I heard he'd told the paralegal, the mediator, others that he didn't want his divorce, that I did.

So I wrote him. Told him I wouldn't have had the slightest indication this wasn't exactly what he wanted. But if true, the path back I originally offered was the same. Counseling, anger management, and I would try to rebuild trust.

His response? Basically, "Z, I don't trust you, painful to hear from you, pointless to talk about it. I will not try to contact you." Just a sentence or two.

Sometimes I feel like if I would only pursue and tell him I can see his point, how I pushed his buttons that night, where I needed to be a better partner, we could still put this back together.

Do I want him back?

I would have said sometimes through the last 5 months, absolutely not.

Sometimes I would have said, I believe maybe...if he's hit rock bottom, if he knows what he's lost...maybe he wants to work this out, but bc of our pattern, is waiting for me to convince.

Rationally, I know this is not the case. I believe he used me, and is quite gone.

Rational me knows he is not a suitable life partner. That he has made not signal to ME that he wants to change, wants to be married. Hell with what he says to others.

Emotionally, I am still struggling to believe that the man I loved isn't in there at his core and we can't be together the way we were when I was happy, when we were making our great plans.

I just don't know how to look at it all in the rear view mirror. It is such a jumble to me.

[Zelda09]

V, in your post you said that you believe WH feels close to me? What does that mean?


My triggers - triggers that pull me out of rational/conscious and into emotional/subconscious?

Looking at evidence he must have surely loved me. The things he built that took hours and weeks, that served only me. I've put all but what I need for work away. Purchasing new ones is out of the question, both for price and because they were made better than what I could have bought. And...I like seeing some evidence it wasn't all in my head.

Grinding beans for coffee in the morning. I remember his long legs around me in bed and I miss him so much. Him with his love handles and boxers, singing. I like my coffee, so that'll stick around. With every pot I make, it becomes more my domain and not his, so it'll just take time.

Places we'd go often, that I still meet people.

Photos, but they're all put away.

My house, my dog, my workplace. He was so thoroughly a part of every bit of my life. It's just hard not to see ghosts of him everywhere.

To remove every single thing that makes me think of him, I would have to run away as he's run away all his life. Erase all of my friends from FB, as he's done. Stop thinking and talking about him, and start from scratch, new furniture, new identiy, new place.

So instead, I am trying to create as many new memories in these places and around 'our' favorites as I can. To systematically make him less relevant, like V how you talk about pushing your STBX back.

[Zelda09]

I think I've come up with a good re-framing technique to help me look at those memories where STBX when he was smiling and lovely, looking like a wonderful man a fool would leave.

I am going to overlay it with a three year old, looking loving and smiling. (The tantrums just get to be a bit much in an adult.)

I think this is the best possible way for me right now to distance myself and accept what was happening in these years.

Because I just can't get it in my head or gut that STBX is an abuser, or an awful person, and that is why when I 'rationally' try to pin him there without a mask, it doesn't stick?

An overgrown and dangerous toddler, that seems like something that will maybe stick for me. How I do wish he would take charge of growing up, but nobody got time for that.