Papers Served

[BEClem]

Really sorry. A very tough blow.

Still, you haven't failed. Not even yet to save your marriage. I'm not saying it looks good, but it's still not final, and 11th hour changes of heart happen (partly the deal doesn't look so good when they aren't getting the fantasy of what they think the arrangement will be). And, as you say, you can stand up and look the kids in the eye in the end. You have also become a better parent, and DBing is important to have as good a R as possible w/ an XW when co-parenting is involved. And who knows where that leads? Neither of you do. Still, no getting away from the pain of it all.

Thanks A. I realize that there is still time. This process can take several months to a year.

I found it so fitting what you wrote about the agreement and how there is a fantasy vs reality to it.

So I was served today with the agreement drawn up by my wife and her attorney. Needless to say I will NOT be signing it and it will be going to my attorney for essentially a total revision. Here is a dose of fantasy from her agreement:

She wants to waive the use of the alimony and child support calculation system in our state. I was laid off from professional work 4 years ago (at which time I made 75,000 per year). For the last 4 years I work two cash based seasonal positions. One in the Spring and Summer and another in the Fall and Winter. I make about 38,000 per year between these two jobs. Since they are cash based we have been "liberal" in our JOINT tax filing these last four years. So her attorney wants to treat the situation as if I am unemployed (which I am not) because if they utilized the alimony and child support system based off of what we have claimed the amount would be ridiculously low. So her proposal is to "waive" alimony and ask for $350 per week in child support (which is almost half of what I make). They are basing this on impuning an income of $75,000 per year on me (which I have not earned in four years) and an income of $0 for my wife (which is false because she provides daycare for my cousin's daughter and earns $500 per month from it). My approach from my end with my attorney has been utilizing what I actually make (not the lower amount that has been claimed) and using the state's system to determine a fair amount of alimony / child support based on reality. This would also mean that income would be impuned upon my Wife since the child support is a duel responsibility and she will have to GET A JOB (oh the horror). So that is a fantasy. I'm not just going to agree to give her half of the money I make based off of false numbers. That is unfair and is just not how the system works in our state.

She wants joint legal custody of our two children (which is fine) but wants sole physical custody of them (which is not fine). Meaning she wants them to live with her full time. I will be limited to a visitation schedule of "no less than 6 hours per week" (pretty low minimum if you ask me). And the kicker: She gets 365 overnights and I get ZERO.

She wants life insurance policies on both of us. This is a good idea. However, she want the trustee of my policy to be her and the trustee of her policy to be her mother. So if I die, she gets $250,000 for the children that she can utilize as she sees fit for their needs. That part I have no problem with. BUT, if she dies, her $150,000 policy for our children goes to her......MOTHER? So what you are telling me is that if my wife dies, my mother-in-law gets to decide what happens to the life insurance money for my children? Yeah, not happening.

Vehicles: We have a crappy car (in her name that is paid off) that I drive and a good car (in my name) that she drives. She wants me to finish paying off the car in my name while she continues to drive it and then.....switch titles so I can "keep" the crap box and she can keep the good car. Not happening. We BOTH need safe and reliable vehicles for the children. So something different needs to happen here.

So basically, her agreement is for me to give her half of what I earn on less than $40,000 per year, give her my car and keep the clunker no questions asked, kids live with her and I get no overnights and she just goes about her life as a stay at home mom. Babysitting during the day and maybe working a part time job in the evenings while I "watch the kids".

I have been educated by my attorney about how all of this really works and I have to admit that I feel badly for my wife because the reality of how all of these issues will end up will be nothing like what is drawn up in that agreement.

So yeah, the fantasy and the reality do not match.

Link to all threads

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&view=started&id=37073

[Sotto]

Hi BeClem. As you say, what's being proposed doesn't sound like a great outcome for you. No guarantees of even having your kids stay with you overnight even. I can see why you want to counter this.

The only comment I would make is that what's being proposed may not be your W's fantasy entirely. I think L's encourage people to 'go for' absolutely everything they want in the first instance - then it gets 'whittled down' to something more acceptable to both parties.

In a sensible world, the 'first draft' would be much more realistic....but it doesn't seem to work like this. Cynical me says it's all about L's making money. The further from acceptable the agreement is, the more legal to-ing and fro-ing there is likely to be...

Good luck with things my friend - you're doing really well xx

[Azzork]

The only peace I have right now is knowing that one day, when my little boy and little girl are grown, I will be able to look them in the eyes and tell them I did all that I could to keep us together. Did I make mistakes? Yes. Were my efforts perfect? No. But I fought a good fight for noble reasons.

If you give up now, have you done all you could?
I hope that now you will learn to work SMARTER instead of HARDER.

But I do feel like I failed them because my efforts did not produce the intended results. I know we talk about how DBing is about us. But really we all come here with the same goal: to save our marriages and our families.

Yes, we all COME here to save our families. But we can't control our spouses. So no matter how much we try and how hard we fight, sometimes there's nothing that can be done. That doesn't make you or your efforts a failure.

In that. I have failed. But I can always take solice in the fact that I didn't give up and did the best I could.

DBing is a LONG process and you're just getting started. Don't give up now - you're just about to get to the good stuff, I think.

[job]

BEC,
Well, it does sound like she wants the entire cake to eat for herself. The first draft is always "going for the gold", so it's time to sit down and figure out what can work for you, especially since you are the one working two jobs.

One thing that really stood out for me is the life insurance policies. Before putting her name as beneficiary on your policy, I would ask about whether you can name your children as the beneficiaries, i.e., 50/50 instead of your wife. The reason I mention is that there are times when a wife is named as the beneficiary and when a death occurs, the children do not see the money...the parent does ensure that the children receive it. So, to make it easy for you and your children, name them, not your wife. Notice how your wife isn't putting you as the beneficiary on her proposed policy? That should tell you something about where her mind is right now.

As for the vehicle in your name, well...since you are moving forward w/the divorce, I think it's time she gets her crappy car back since it's in her name and you reclaim your car, the one that you've been paying on. No court of law will stop you from repossessing your car. Whatever you do, don't agree to what she is suggesting about the cars because she's trying to get everything she can from you right now. She's hoping that you feel so low, miserable and guilty that she can put everything on the line and you'll agree w/her terms. I also think that her friend, family and the lawyer are whispering in her ear to take you to the cleaners and/or clean your clock. Don't fall for this old trick. Besides, she must have some money if she's filed and wants a life insurance policy. So, she can come up w/some money for a nicer car, even if it's a leased one. Trust me, she got money or someone is giving her funds to file, etc.

Please do not allow your heart to dictate the terms of your agreement. This is a business partnership that has gone south. Trust me, if the shoe was on the other foot, she wouldn't be so generous towards you. They want everything they can get and leave us w/a tin cup in our hands begging for money and do not care if we have a roof over our heads. It's all about "me, me and more me". Time to think about YOU for a change and what you need to live on comfortably and take care of your kids.

[asitis]

I know it is galling, and it has to hurt to have the person you loved and committed to sue you and be so selfish with little regard for you or the kids.

Just so you are forearmed if the W makes the case that moving the kids back and forth wont be good for them, there was a recent Swedish study that took up this question, and showed the benefits of joint custody out weighed the moving. Basically, they looked at psychosomatic (emotional-physical) symptoms of teenagers in various forms of family arrangements. Of course the kids in nuclear families had the fewest symptoms. They were being asked by clinicians who had been worrying about the affect of the massive rise in joint custody over the last two decades, so the assumption was that joint custody kids would fare the worst. In fact joint custody kids showed lower symptoms than the sole custody w/ visitation kids. Their speculation was that having closer contact with both parents and the support networks both parents' friends and family provided outweighed the impact of moving back and forth between households. Here is an article on the study: Medical News Today Article

I can't remember if your wife has nixed the idea of mediation, but having a mediator with some counseling training is much less adversarial and likely to produce better R outcomes whether the M fails or not. If she as at all receptive to doing what is best for the kids, having a better co-parenting relationship should be her aim. It may not be, but it is worth pushing for. And if she says that she has already filed, there is nothing that says she can't withdraw the petition to try mediation, and if that fails re-file with something more like an agreement focusing instead on the intractable issues that a judge will decide.

Sorry you are having to go through this.

[BEClem]

Job,

Don't worry. I am not going to agree to ANY of it.

My heart is broken. Yes. But I am not allowing that to cloud my better judgement.

Just to clarify in the insurance policies. She would not be the beneficiary. She would be the trustee. The children would be the beneficiaries. The issue I have with the policies is that on her end, if she passes away, she wants her mother to be the trustee for her policy money. Which is in a word ridiculous. If she is the trustee in my policy than I must be the trustee on hers because if she passes, the children become my sole responsibility and as their father and as a responsible and good parent I have the right to determine what is best for my children. Not their grandmother on my wife's side. It's moronic.

I have a lot running through my mind about how to handle this.

One thing is how do I handle the interim: the time between now and the d being final. Do I be nice and allow her to stay in the home and continue with the vehicle situation until the d is final. Or do I go the opposite direction and move home and take the house and the car back?

If I do the hardline stance, it will impact my children because as I have stated before, she will take the children out of the home and leave.

[job]

BEC,
I would suggest that you discuss the moving back home and the car situation w/your lawyer. Generally, once the clock starts ticking on divorce actions, this is usually when things need to be taken care of in the way of negotiating on settlement issues.

[Rick1963]

When my d went through I had to show who paid for the cars. Since I made all the payments ex kept the new car and the payments. I kept the car that was paid for. I am not sure why you are even discussing life insurance with her. You can get your own and put the kids as beneficiaries. At this time I wouldnt do anything without talking to your L. What the WAS think will happen never does. Mine was very shocked and angry at the outcome. She threatened to take my RC planes. But most of them were bought as presents and she couldnt. On the other hand she has a horse worth 25k which I could have asked for half. But didnt. Tough stuff my friend.

[CaliGuy]

BEC

Caught up a bit here. Re-Read Jobs posts ... I agree with them completely here. And I also like the point asitis made about mediation ... especially when they do provide some support on co-parenting, something I think you both would benefit from, and its cheaper. Its the route W and I opted for ... twice though it never came to be.

Do I be nice and allow her to stay in the home and continue with the vehicle situation until the d is final. Or do I go the opposite direction and move home and take the house and the car back?

Up to this point in your sitch it seems to me you have been playing the passive/aggressive .... by that I mean on the surface you were paying the bills, doing things around the house in order to still have some sense of control then when you felt helpless you would press, stalk, push the issues.

At this point in the game, If it were me ... I might play a bit more on the hardball side of things. Your W has already set the tone here and basically submitted a total BS agreement like she will get it all here. Regardless of saving your M or not its time to face this head on, protect your kids and yourself. I hit that point and told the lawyers I would most likely have agreed to whatever W wanted had it not been for S, however I would not loose one day of custody nor one dollar for his sake .. anything I were to give up would hurt him 50% of the time and I was not about to give an inch.

Again .. this is your W's choice and she will have to feel the consequences ... up to now, she has had it made, you have enabled her ... so why would she not want to continue calling all the shots as she has been this whole time?

[asitis]

Just wanted to add, the threat on custody is most likely the L's suggestion of a negotiating chip. You'll be so anxious to get more custody, you'll give away on the financial side. It is a very crass and callous thing to use your kids as a kind of negotiating black mail.

You need to do what you can w/ your L to make it so there is no way the courts would award anything like her custody arrangement, then you can not be black mailed. You just laugh and say that is a non-starter, so let's just dispense with the farce: it will be joint custody. Now let's start negotiating on the financial side.

So, first stop is the L's to figure out how to take that bargaining chip back of the table whether she likes it or not. She may agree to mediation at that point, once she sees that this is going to be a messy give and take with a hostile party whose pissed that she pulled this crap.

Then you need to decide if you really want someone who would agree to use their kids this way.