Crisortunity - A beautiful world with endless possibilities.

[Vanilla]

thanks for the link V - reading it now. its hard too imagine my wife as being so ... what sounds like "cunning". But now that the "spell" is broken I do recognise parts of our history/R that were very odd say the least.

I suspect this is discussed perhaps on your abuse thread but is it possible that her abuse was a subconsciously activated mechanism of protection? This fits somewhat.

Interesting question and I am unsure I know the answer. It's your sitch so for you to decide what's best, I think you are in a space that you can discuss it and evaluate it.

This is what appears clear to me:

Abusers abuse because it gets them what they want. What they want includes getting strokes shoring up considerable insecurity. They maintain their R as that gives them what they need in the world. The high powered church bishop with a family because it does his image well. The golfer with the beautiful W who needs advertising to earn. The president who appears to be a family man and not having sex with that woman. These are clearly managing well in the world.

Those who have High narc scores 24 or more often have abusive childhoods (there are marker scores called ACES for that too!). They need a resource supply to reassure them that they are ok. Many narcs are aware and manage themselves and gradually through awareness bring down their score. We can dislike the abuse without demonising the abuser, healing is a wonderful experience, and those that heal bring great knowledge and gifts to themselves, loved ones and in general.

Abuse is abuse where the abused isn't happy. Some abuse is cultural, some condoned and even if we call something abuse it may not be. If my sitch had been more controlled then I would have tolerated it, but it eventually became intolerable. Arguments aren't abuse and some attributes of abuse, (reactive) arise in arguments, for that time it's abusive. It's managed. Abusers escalate where they feel loss of control, their image will crack in the eyes of others. It appears that It stems insecurity mainly and poor emotional intelligence.

I have also read that it comes from childhood, there are many theories for example FOO (family of origin) issues and it's just that theory. Sexual and physical abuse seem to enhance the problem, one mitigating factor is a minimum of one loving adult in a child's life and it doesn't have to be a parent. I haven't seen any studies on identical twins yet in print where one is disordered and the other isn't although it fascinates detective TV script writers. There is a wonderful TED talk by Nadine Burke Harris examining a key study on adult health issues arising from childhood ACES but it looks at physical health. I haven't found a study I like on mental health yet.

Great IC will help heal childhood issues, those who become aware repair.

I confess to not knowing the full answer to your question, all I can observe is that healing childhood issues and resolving some insecurities brings down abuse and narc scores. Abusers without NPD or ASD are more easily treated too, narcs generally don't present for treatment unless mandated as they usually want to believe they are perfect, accepting treatment damages their ego. A professional may help you answer the question.

I am not sure if that's helpful, it's a tough area to penetrate, and I don't want you to feel my knowledge is complete.

V

[Pyrite]

I will V. thanks. I have been busy recovering, preparing the soon to come post but I will check out Little1's thread and all the rest. Dont sell yourself short V - i feel like you have summarised an entire semester of study for me on NPD and abuse. I will think more about this and comment. You have been a great help. thank you.

[Pyrite]

It’s been a while. So recapping:

W declared the M over in early January. Refused to discuss anything further. EA suspected since December. Uncovered in February. PA uncovered in March. Wife admits to full on love R with OM in June.

We have 50/50 shared custody of kids. Kids live in marital home, we move in and out. OM is in house when I am not. Has been constant source of irritation for me.

W voluntarily relocated job in January across town. Since S pushing for rest of us to relocate. I initiated mediation. Compromise was ALL on my side. Eventually IC(2) convinced me to see L. L issued W with formal “notice of intent“. Basically saying “Family is NOT relocating to accommodate you.”

Her response through L was pathetically weak and basically threatened to relocate as she pleases and claim full custody (with no other grounds other than it please her to do so). We called her bluff and have so far heard nothing in 2 weeks. L and I are confident.

In the meantime – I had 3 months of [censored] following BD. I was a wreck. These boards saved me and significantly pointed me in the right direction. From the outset I was “encouraged” to see and own my own role in this M breakdown. And to “fix” these issues.

I came to these boards NOT wanting to let go of my M. I desperately wanted to R with my W and save my family. I wanted to bust this D. These boards gave me hope that this was possible, and it is possible. The truth though is that it is not the likely outcome for most of us.

Irrespective of my “secret” ambition to save my M, I absolutely didn’t want to end up bitter. My parents D’ed over 20 years. My mother is great. My father has still not moved past the bitterness, has never had another Rand never will. I have a “friend” who grinds her teeth at night, 5 years after her D from WAH, even though she has a new man.

The ultimate way forward is growth. And that begins with recognizing your role in the M breakdown. DR seems useless at times because it is aimed at people still in their M. LRT comprises a page or so, and even then is a long shot. The point is though that whilst aimed at both parties, it is still possible to grow on your own through DR. The most important part is the short-comings that will be highlighted by this process.

From here on it was a matter of growing through the grief. Meditation has helped me a great deal through this process. The first fw months were just a mess. Since then there have been times when I have felt great because of the progress I have made personally.

There have also been many periods, some extended for weeks, when I have felt thrown back to square one. However, each of these times, if I really thought about it, I could trace it back to one particular element of my situation. You see, the marriage breakdown, BD, OM, it all makes “sense”. It is all just human psychology. It is in this sense all forgivable.

The specific “elements” of my situation that kept drawing me back in were in essence the things I couldn’t let go of. The things I couldn’t forgive. Generally each of these was eventually resolved in a “moment of clarity”. And everytime this clarity was that my W’s behaviour is her business. Given my sitch and my W’s behaviour, I have come to the conclusion that even IF she turned around, R would be virtually impossible.

The R we had was facilitated by my flawed personality (and by hers of course)
. The characteristics in my W’s personality which were most attractive to me are the very ones she has destroyed by engaging in this A. She doesn’t make me feel special anymore, she clearly doesn’t have the same values that I do and most importatntly I can see clearly now how she has always had this incredibly selfish streak.

In short it is hard to see how R would be possible when even IF she was willing, I have demands of her that I don’t think she is capable of addressing.

Sure it still hurts. And I still feel betrayed and rejected that my W was not nearly as comitted to our family as I was. I lived in hope for years that my W would grow out of her neurotic mothering and pay attention to our R. Unfortunately when the kids were not so dependent on her, she started a new R instead.

A few weeks ago I ran into an ex-girlfriend. We were together for 7 years. This encounter cam at exactly the right time for me. We haven’t spoken in 15 years, and we had a heartfelt discussion including apologies etc. Most importantly she forced me to recall that I was once “normal”, in a “normal” R, with a “normal” girl.

When I was 20 I returned home to find my then GF in bed with another guy. Of course I was in shock but the lasting grievance was that my innocence was shattered. Until then I had no idea that people could behave this way, so selfishly, so un-compassionately. The thing that saved me back then was meditation and the drive towards compassion, not away from it.

The consequence of this that led me onto my next fantastic R is summed up in a Verve song that was popular at the time. “I’m a lucky man. All the love I have is in my mind.” In short, it was always my love. She brought it out, but it was always mine, and will resurface again, lest I squash it with anger.

The past month I have been acutely aware of this. At times I feel ecstatic. It is amazing to feel this way. Every woman I meet is beautiful. Every (available) woman I meet I can IMAGINE being in a R with. I honestly know and feel that I couldn’t be, but I can see that potential. And this is a huge +ve for me, that I can see a happy future. And it gets better.
I had reconstructive surgery the other day to graft a nerve from my leg onto my face. 5 hours under a general anaesthaetic and 100 stitches later I had a lovely young nurse to take care of me overnight. I saw her dozens of times through the night. She was noticeably taken aback when I used her name in conversation.

In my morphined up state I could tell she was flattered when I noticed when she put her hair up and then later let it down again. When her shift ended and she said goodbye I stopped myself from wishing her “sweet dreams” because I thought I didn’t want things to end like “that”.

Then in a flash it occurred to me that the “that” was yet another scenario misguided by my “flawed” core-beliefs. The “that” situation I imagined was that she would interpret my remark as an unsolicited sleezy comment by this grotesque, creepy man. In reality there was no reason for me to believe that this was the case. And in that moment I was able to ask myself where the desire came from to even wish her sweet dreams.

The reality was that I knew I would never see her again. I was absolutely in no position to be chatting her up. She was delivering my urine bottles for christs sake, monitoring my sutures and swelling and mopping up my dribble. I was under no delusion that I was “chatting up” this girl. So where did it come from?

She was beautiful. I could see her soul in her eyes. I could see she lacked confidence in herself and I just wanted to make her feel special. And from all of our conversations I could tell that she appreciated little things – like me remembering her name. So I said it. Her and the other nurse giggled. She blushed and left the room with a smile and a spring in her step. Not at all the disgust, slamming the curtain shut and shaking her head that I imagined momentarily and falsely.

Then again, the next day, I donated/sponsored a girl at work in some charity event. I had to leave a comment and my first reaction was to leave this “great” comment. But again, I thought twice. Then I remembered “all the love I have is in MY mind”. So I did. She was very appreciative and I can imagine it brought a smile to her face as well. This makes me happy.

And to answer your question, I do do the “same” with guys. Although there isn’t really an issue here of what I say being misconstrued and the same hesitation doesn’t apply. Guys and girls are different, an I do say/do different things, but I don’t think that is a bad thing.

What this all comes down to is spirituality. I was once very spiritual. I lost that in my M. Now it is coming back. I don’t mean necessarily religious but I acknowledge that this works for some people. I have never had a God in my life, I am a theoretical physicist by trade and I don’t NEED there to be any further explanation. BUT I think spirituality is something we all need to make this work.

[Pyrite]

hey Ms V,le.

I had a conversation with Zeus one time about the line between personnality and personality disorder. I wish I had have pursued my undergrad psychology minors further but I gather from my reading and IC that psychs refer to spectra rather than one or the other.

So we are all blended spectra of all these things. Quantifying this is hard enough and then quantifying how these spectral characteristics interact is even more impossible.

I think understanding all these spectra is nonetheless an essential starting point to "helping" any one specific individual. However, I get tired sometimes of analysing my STBX. It does help, in that it gives me some answers, but I really should return the focus to myself.

I did fit in with her, so it is helpful in that respect, but there is a line where I have to leave it alone. Leave it in her sandpit as you say.

[Pyrite]

OK - re-reading my own very long post I realise there is a jump here between making people smile and spirituality. the link is karma. creating +ve karma for ourselves and others. actually the focus being on others is in a sense even more selfishly creating good karma for ourselves. And it doesn't matter whether or not you strictly believe in karma in the Buddhist sense, it is just goodwill, paying it forward, etc

[Huddy]

Hi Py

Thanks for stopping by. Glad to see you're doing OK. Hope the surgery, which sounds painful, went well.

[Vanilla]

Surgery is a big deal, I recollect Jellyb made some extraordinary leaps in her spirituality at that time.

Please take extraordinary care of you and your health.

V

[Vanilla]

Let us know you are ok

V

[Pyrite]

hi V, thanks for asking. I'm OK. Stolen/bruised. I understand "phantom limbs" now.
I had a nerve graft taken from my lower leg, so I shouldn't be able to even feel some parts of my foot - but guess what? crippling pain sometimes! weird

-Py

[Vanilla]

Ouch!

I have to ask, please feel free to ignore.

Why was the nerve treated, it sounds unusual.


V