Lost, alone, and in pain

[Cadet]

I hate myself a little for even letting her stay in this fight after what she has done. She lied to me for months about her affair and I let myself believe her. Her entire family told me there was an OM. I didn't believe it. I'm so angry with myself for not catching this sooner and not completely removing myself from her immediately.

FWIW it would not have mattered .
What matters is what you do from here on out.

[HurtHus]

Thanks Cadet, at least I can tell myself "It starts today" every morning and just keep moving forward.

So after not talking yesterday and sleeping in separate rooms (I had our bed with the kids and she slept in our son's bed) this morning she is acting like a different person. I need to keep my distance and not backslide because she is pursuing me a little, but it was nice to have her come into the room before she left for work and lay in the bed next to me and just hug me like she missed me. She kissed me good bye (I was still half asleep so she only got to kiss my cheek) and said she loves me. She has texted me more today already than all day yesterday. I have been replying, but not initiating contact and have been generally polite, but short.

[sandi2]

The following advice is only for those Piecing a M back together again. Unless your S has agreed to work on the M (end the A, remorseful, etc.) then don't apply this advice to your stitch.

Okay, it is extremely important that you realize you and your W are in what we call "piecing the M back together". So, some things we tell a LBH to do with a WW, may not apply to your stitch as it is now. I know that could be a bit frustrating at the moment, b/c you aren't sure what to do, right?

Piecing is VERY hard work. You are wanting assurance and see her jump back in, so the M will be good again, etc. She is going through some emotional trials that you may not understand fully. She is addicted to the "feelings" the A gave her. You can read about the scientific facts of PEAs and how it chemically affects the brain. It's as if she's trying to withdraw from drugs.

A woman cannot truly, romantically, love one man at a time. Her brain chemicals was telling her she loved OM, so that meant she couldn't have sexual/romantic loving feelings for two men at once. (She could have sex with two, but "loving feelings" for only one.) She has not had time for her brain to readjust from the A. She has to get the OM completely out of head before she has room for you. Her emotions have been use to running the show, and you are making it harder for her to not contact OM b/c you are putting pressure on her to show you sexual attention/affection. She cannot do it from her heart! Maybe some women are sexually high drive enough they want just the sex itself, but many women cannot bring themselves to submit to the H's advances b/c it actually turns her off. (Sorry for the harshness.)

It took me about six months of withdrawals, four of which were hard withdrawal symptoms. Then months of depression followed. I could not put any energy into the M (maybe b/c I was older, IDK.) It took a couple of years before my feelings toward my H started to get better, however, there had been years of problems before the A and everyone is not exactly the same. So, your W's feelings may be restored a lot of faster than mine were. Plus, my H did not have the tools you are getting, and that will make a big difference in how well the piecing goes.

Let me give you an example, and I'm not picking on you by pointing this out. It takes time to get this all sorted and learn it.

I just stood there and did not react. I had planned for not sleeping in the same room as her tonight and told the kids they could sleep in our room tonight. I knew it would mean there wouldn't be enough room for both of us. I gave the kids a kiss good night and walked out of the room. I think I caught a look of surprise on her face before I closed the door.

Okay, so the two of you had an argument and giving the cold shoulder. How's that working out? When you are in the stage of piecing together the M, you can't be doing this type of stuff (silent treatment, sleeping in separate beds, etc.)b/c that is not bringing the two of you closer. It is actually spreading you apart.

Can you now look at what you said and realize the wrong moves? If she were still contacting OM, then yes, that would have been the way to go. But you are trying to work together to save the M. How can you give her emotional support if you aren't talking (after she made the first and second move toward you, and then you continue your silent treatment and sleep in another room?

I understand how you need emotional support also. I can only tell you from her perspective that she is not strong enough to carry this through without your total support. We women look to our men to be stronger than we are. Especially our H. It's when they show us they are weaker than we are that we lose our attraction/respect for them. When women feel their weakest, we will turn to that person who offers us emotional support. Who will your W turn to, if you aren't there for her?

My advice is to apologize for going to bed before trying to get things right. You don't have to apologize for everything in the past, just in how you reacted yesterday. Tell her you still struggle at times but know that style of reaction is not the road to take. Don't act like a doormat about it, just make sure you identify yesterday's reaction.

Do not smother her with your presence, which I don't see that you are at the moment.

Do spend quality time and give her individual attention (apart from the kids).

Do show you are interested in her day, her opinions, etc.

Do try to have "meaningful" conversation with her (but not about the relationship). If she talks about the R, just listen and don't try to shut her down unless she gets out of control.

Do continue to have time for yourself and GAL. Continue to be an interesting person to her.

Work on your ability to attract her (you did it once, right?).

Things came to a head last night. While she had her affair I built a deck on our house myself around our new hot tub. I've asked her to join me in the hot tub so we could spend time together just relaxing. She repeatedly refuses.

To me, a hot tub is rather intimate when it's just the two of you. If you've been kind of pushy about affection, she could have seen it as an uncomfortable place to be.

I told her last night that it felt like a slap in the face knowing she was cheating on me the entire time I was busting my back building the deck and even sending the OM pictures of my progress and talking about what she wanted to do with the deck.

So you slapped her back.

W blew up and said we were supposed to schedule time to talk about this stuff and she was furious that I would just throw something like this in her face.

She's right. Look, if she has met the terms of your conditions about the R, then why are you all up in arms about it? Is she still contacting OM? Have I misunderstood something in your post? Are you expecting too much too soon?

She hasn't said "sorry" much if I don't ask her how she feels about what she did.

How much does she need to say she's sorry? Why are you asking her how she feels about what she's done? Has she appeared remorseful when she says she's sorry?

When we were talking I asked if we could talk about what the problems were that led to her affair. She stated "I don't know why you can't just accept this, but I'm not attracted to you anymore."

Well, she pretty much told you, right there. She could be trying to not say too much to hurt you even more. Or, she may be concerned you wouldn't let something drop. However, generally speaking, a WW had rather not discuss what led to the A...when it's one on one with her H. (I do think the problems need to be resolved, however.) She may not be ready or feels pressured by you. She may think it won't do any good, IDK. I'm just saying it doesn't always mean she is being uncooperative or stubborn, the way you may see her. To me, it sounds as if she wants to discuss these things only under the supervision of the therapist.

I said this was something common in long term relationships and usually has to do with something other than physical attraction and that if she wanted to make a change she could.

Again, you are placing pressure on her that she's not ready to do. It's just not that easy for her to make that change b/c she wants to. She doesn't want to right now. Get it? Her emotions are still to fragile and confused.

She doesn't see it the way you do. For her, it is all tied into attraction. Every problem can probably be connected in some way to her loss of attraction for you.....or either your actions caused the loss over time. Her view of attraction is not the same as how you see it. For women, there are other things beside just the physical that attracts us to a man, but all together those things affect our physical attraction to him.... b/c of how women are wired.

Considering she is just coming out of an A, and there are still unresolved issues, she isn't attracted to you. As long as there is attraction, a woman can put up with a lot from her guy. He doesn't have to look like Brad Pitt, as long as the chemistry is working for her. The actions of the man draws the attraction (or lack of attraction) from the woman!

Men would be wise to remember that women were created to be responders. Our attraction monitor is attached to how we view and respect that man. So men, if your woman isn't responding like you want, better look at your actions.

I do agree that with couples in long marriages their passion can dwindle from where it was when first married. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is how you were meaning what you said to your W about long term R's and the physical attraction. But she is hearing you tell her not to expect any more feelings of that love rushing in, like she felt with OM. She is hearing you tell her that she has to "settle" for you (the old H in the long term M). What's worse, she's hearing you tell her that she could fix this if she wanted to. Oh......not good to tell a former WW things like that.^

I think it's over, but we already have tickets to go to Hawaii.

It's not over! You had a back-set. You are the one threatening to file for a D. Get it straighten out today. Keep those tickets!

I'm trying to make things as nice as I can for the kids and focus on me

That's what you would do if your spouse is wanting a D. Has she said she wants a D? Did I miss something in your thread?

[sandi2]

Whoa, my previous post looks like one of 25yrsmlc posts. Sorry for the length, but can you believe I forgot to mention something else?

But first let me get clear about something. You said:

I hate myself a little for even letting her stay in this fight after what she has done. She lied to me for months about her affair and I let myself believe her. Her entire family told me there was an OM. I didn't believe it. I'm so angry with myself for not catching this sooner and not completely removing myself from her immediately.

Am I confused about the stitch? Is she or isn't she agreeing to everything you listed? The quote above, isn't it b/c you are angry about something she has stopped doing? Is she still doing it?

I just wanted to refer back to when you said you would have normally embraced her and didn't respond. I think, if you are in piecing, that you should let her make the initial advance to hug or kiss, etc., and when you see what she's doing, then respond to her in like manner. At this time, she may need to see that you are not going to press her about the touching thing. Slowly incorporate some non-sexual touches over days & weeks. Give her time to get her feelings straightened out again, and hopefully, she will initiate the first moves a few times.

[HurtHus]

This is great stuff Sandi, I'm not sure if we are really in the piecing the M back together or not at this point. I feel like I am there, but it does not seem like she is. It seems like she is still trying to eat her cake.

She did agree to end the A, get individual and marriage counseling, and to give us time to work on things. She says she ended the A (I'm not sure how I could know that she has without some other actions on her part, like showing remorse). She has not gone to individual counseling (I suggested this because I recognized that she was going through a lot and though a professional would be able to help her sort through everything), we are only talking to my DB coach and only have one more session. She has not done what we have agreed upon in those sessions, we are supposed to talk about the A and our M once a week, we are supposed to have brief touch point convos every few days to validate what has been going well, and we are supposed to set aside time to just be together. None of those things are happening even when I initiate them.

I haven't asked for any physical attention aside from asking if I could kiss her. I don't even initiate the embraces at night because I don't want to smother or pressure her. She enjoys me rubbing her arm and back as she falls asleep and I don't do that without trying to make sure she is okay with it (either body language or if I am unsure asking directly).

I am trying to be patient, but I feel like I've been too much of a doormat for too long. I am frustrated by the lack of effort, the lack of remorse she has shown, the lack of commitment to even working on the R even though she has said she wants to. She has also said she doesn't know what she wants though. How do I navigate those mixed signals?

I know I'm all over the place. I promise I'm not the one having the MLC. The divorce was initiated at her request. When we had problems, before I knew about the A I told her I did not want a D, but if that was what she wanted I would do my best to make sure it was amicable and that I would do whatever I could to minimize the impact on our kids. She said she didn't know what she wanted so I left the decision in her hands and backed off. When I found out about the A and had proof I confronted her and said she needed to make a decision because I would not stay married to her if she continued. I said I was calling a lawyer the next morning (I can hear it now that I should not have been so forceful and demanding probably, but it is what it is) and she had until I had an appointment to meet with them to decide how she wanted to proceed. The next morning she said that was likely what had to happen. I left the house to go to the apt. When I was about to go into the office I texted her and said I wanted to make sure this was what she wanted. She said she didn't know. That is when I said she would need to end the A, see an IC and MC, and commit to working through things. She agreed, but has not followed through on any of it aside from ending the A (as far as I know).

So I totally see what you are saying and understand that maybe I am not following the right course of action. I just don't know if we really are at the piecing it back together stage yet or not.

A little more background, I think the reason she began to lose respect in me is because of physical strength. I have an autoimmune disease that destroys my muscles. I had been hitting the gym hard and gotten much more fit and way stronger than I ever had been. She was also growing more fit and strong, but I was always significantly stronger. I am in the midst of a flair up and have lost a great deal of strength and endurance and even the ability to work out how I had been just 6 months ago. That said people with my disease end up in wheel chairs not doing CrossFit. I am beating this disease. She tells me how proud she is of me for doing what I am and how awesome it is that I am even working out and doing what I do. I just can't help but notice how the timing all worked out. I face a life threatening disease, her GM passes, she begins to look at old HS photos and wants to look like that again, says she hates her stomach and how the kids ruined her body, gets braces, gets a tattoo, finds another man (pretty much the exact opposite of me).

I know I need to be the man I know I am. I need to regain some of my confidence (how can anyone go through this and not have their confidence shaken?). I need to reassert myself as a positive driving force by moving forward personally. I just don't know how to do those things and at what stage we are.

After her leaving yesterday without a word and not communicating yesterday she was very affectionate this morning, has texted me often and called me to ask how my day is going. She has seemed excited about my job interviews (yeah it doesn't help that I am unemployed right now). I am so confused. It seems like she is still in an MLC, but maybe the fog is lifting a little bit and maybe she wants to work on things, but is not really committed or has the energy to do what needs to be done. Hope my rambling makes some sort of sense.

[Clairee]

Thanks for another insightful post Sandi.

H & I are in this place. Piercing is hard, harder than anything I've ever done. H has fully admitted the A, accepted responsibility & shown remorse. We are in MC once a week, which is a tremendous help & blessing.

In reading, it sounds like you haven't truly forgiven your W. And forgiveness is key to piecing & moving forward. It's not easy to forgive an A & all the pain they caused you. It takes every bit of strength in you. It took me a while to reach the point I could honestly say I forgive. Forgiving isn't forgetting & it isn't letting them off the hook. It's a decision to free yourself from the pain. It's not tor them, it's for us. When I finally did forgive, I felt a huge weight off my shoulders. And with each passing day, the memories of the A aren't prominent or as emotional. I have detachment from it & can look at it more clearly & see how we got to that point.

Patience & time. I am always reminding myself, it took us 17 years to get here, it won't be repaired overnight. Hang in there.

[HurtHus]

Forgiveness is easier to decide on, harder to really do though I guess. I forgive her, the pain and anger are still there though. I know I am a part of what lead to the affair and take responsibility for some of the problem. I know the pain and anger will fade. Hell it has only been a few weeks since I had proof and the ish hit the proverbial fan.

I am a very goal oriented person. I can sometimes push myself and others too hard to reach a goal once we have agreed on it. I need to be careful I don't do that now.

Oh, I forgot to say this earlier Sandi, but I have even just asked her to sit on the deck with me or hang out on the deck while I soak in the hot tub. I only asked about going in together after she suggested it last week and another night said she would and changed her mind telling me I could get a "rain check". I am trying really hard not to pursue or pressure in our situation.

[sandi2]

I meant to say that a woman can truly, romantically, love only one man at a time.

[Clairee]

Forgiveness was probably the hardest thing for me. I'm not a forgiving person. Not to friends & especially wasn't with H. I always believed forgiveness was letting them off the hook & telling them it's ok. It took weeks in IC for me to fully understand what forgiveness was & how it impacted me.

Where we are right now is fragile. Fragile enough that I am very deliberate about everything I say & do. Before I say or do anything regarding M or H, , I ask myself if it gets me closer to my goal. If it's no, I drink a big stfu smoothie. When H came to me & said he wanted to work of us, we sat down & talked about what a good M would look like to each of us. We took the 5 love languages test & shared with each other. That was an eye opener! I had been showing him love the way I wanted to be shown & completely missed the target on how he needed it & vice versa. Once we learned that about each other, it made it a bit easier because I felt I finally had something I could work with that he hadn't been able to really explain on his own. Very, very enlightening.

Now, we go to MC once a week. We spend 30 minutes a day together with no phones, kids or distractions. We talk about our day, our plans, anything & everything. I don't talk about the M or temp check him on how he thinks we're doing. I did at first & H kindly pointed out it made me sound desperate, needy & that the things I was doing to change were temporary instead of permanent. So now when I get that urge to temp check, I chug one helluva big stfu smoothie. If H brings the M up, I listen. I validate where I can. Communication has always been our biggest problem. H would say something & I would run it through my brain for my interpretation. And 9 out of 10 times, I didn't hear him at all. So now, when H says something I say it back. So if H say 'I feel you're not showing me affection', I say 'what I'm hearing you say is you aren't feeling I'm being affectionate towards you?' H responds yes. I then say 'can you give me examples of what I've done/not done to make you feel this way?' And the conversation goes from there. It's working & we're able to really get to the bottom of things. When before, if H said that to me, it would go in my brain & come out, H is being needy & nothing I do ever pleases him or is enough.

Have you talked about seeing an MC? H found ours by searching psychology today's provider list for solution focused & Gottman method. He's been a huge help for us.

BTW...I live in Hawaii, so if you need some tips or info just ask!

[HurtHus]

We went to a Gottman seminar in the midst of her A and it really seemed to help break down some barriers. It amazes me how even though she wasn't really interested in working on us how much we both got out of that seminar. Unfortunately there aren't any Gottman folks out here on the east coast.

I think we have the same problem with communication when it comes to any conflict. I say something and she hears something different entirely and the same is true I'm sure for when she says something.

I've suggested the 5 Love Languages because I am certain we both need to feel affection in very different ways and we would benefit from understanding them. Unfortunately I think I am a very physically affectionate person, that's going to take some time to feel loved in our situation.

It feels like all I have been doing is chugging those stfu smoothies lately. I know I can't speak out of anger, but sometimes the only times I have the balls to say anything is when I am angry. I need to rebuild my confidence badly. This has shaken me to the core. I stared down the barrel of a disease that puts people in wheel chairs and using feeding tubes and said "FU". I got fit and run 13 mile obstacle courses through the mud, I compete in CrossFit comps. I can overcome anything. Anything but this it feels like.

I've suggested MC. She agreed, but the only one we are talking to right now is my DB coach. She has not made any effort to find one. I'm torn on finding one for us because I don't want to be seen as desperate and I also want her to put the effort into finding one as a sign that she is serious.

I get on here and read threads, think I have it under control only to find out everything I thought I was doing right was wrong and that I'm doing more damage than good. I don't handle uncertainty well and everything in my life right now is uncertain except for the love for my kids and desire for my W and I to find some peace. Give me another disease to fight and I'd be happier than going through this.