Help for LBH who has a WW (new thread)

[Vanilla]

Sandi

Many think they have a WS, and not always. Chicken or egg?

As you know I am a WAW who is not wayward, I am convinced there are many more of us. I do not see myself as an LBS. My sitch is abuse and ultimately I WAW. I too was reactively abusive and I acknowledge that.

Sandi, you once said the 37 weren't rules but guidelines, I think I prefer the way you expressed it in that post.

I am concerned we assume automatically that because an M is in disarray, it because there is waywardness. Look within and then without if the answer is an honest one.

Hugs

V

[714Dad]

Sandi,

first, i wasn't trying to shift the blame to 'being mad at someone else.' i was saying it more like i was stupid because i wasn't even mad at her and yet i snapped at her.

i've been in therapy over a year and just switched to a new therapist after my wife left. the difference between then and now is pretty remarkable i think, but it wasn't remarkable enough to her obviously.

as the last year progressed and i got better control and backed off, giving her alone time and stuff that she asked for, our arguments became more intense and she was the one screaming at me. she kicked a hole in the bathroom door and a bedroom door, knocking the jamb off in the process. she also screamed 'i hate you' several times during an argument because i was saying i wouldn't listen and that we needed a time to cool off. i was stonewalling, but it was the more instinctual kind where it was so heated i was just shutting down inside to make it stop. which works so well as we know.

it was really like our roles switched. i would suggest going out, and she would be mad or pouty. i would listen to her complain and not judge. she would blame me for things in the past or ask me why i did them (all stuff from my past playbook which made it doubly frustrating). she kicked in doors, slammed doors, kicked the inside of the car dashboard while driving, etc.

so yes, i had a few bouts of anger, but most of the year was good with more sadness and regret on my part than anger. i told her all the time how beautiful she as, how i loved her, etc. but she said none of it made up for the past. i am leaps and bounds better with the D3 and D6, and I always tried to make sure she had a lot of time with them. (this hurt me in the long run because i was always reluctant to do date nights or 'rob' her of time with the girls.

and she told me why she left; to let the world in; a third of her life was over and she hadn't done what she wanted to do; she wants to focus on her career; she isn't in love with me; she thinks we're better parents when we're not together; and she doesn't think she's good for me; and she's letting me free to find someone that can make me happy. and another gem was that basically i bring out the worst in her.

i hope i don't sound like i'm making excuses. i am fully aware of what i did and how it progressed to where it has.

and no, the anger stuff hasn't affected jobs. so yeah, been in therapy a year, gotten a good handle on most of it, but still had impulse issues and problems validating feelings if i felt i couldn't understand them (stupid i know).

and i didn't believe she would walk away because she had left a year earlier and come back on multiple conditions i had implemented or were ongoing. to me things were getting better with some speed bumps, but after the fact she said the couples counseling wasn't that effective for her and that every time she felt love rekindled an argument would blow it out. whereas i was falling more deeply in love with her than i had been before.

again, not trying to make excuses. not trying to say she isn't justified. not trying to shift blame. not trying to lessen my part in it.

just looking for advice and ideas.

[sandi2]

Thanks Vanilla. Yes they are guidelines. I referred to them as the 37 rules b/c that was the "title" board members tagged it back before it became a sticky. To clarify for anyone reading, there are no hardline rules or laws that DB lays down.


Edit - Yea do the part listed below in her sig line! - Cadet

[Fogg]

Other than doing what works (not what we think works). DB law #1

[sandi2]

Thanks for your response. It does clarify some things. Has your W ever displayed such acts of temper, as she's presently doing?

it was really like our roles switched. i would suggest going out, and she would be mad or pouty. i would listen to her complain and not judge. she would blame me for things in the past or ask me why i did them (all stuff from my past playbook which made it doubly frustrating). she kicked in doors, slammed doors, kicked the inside of the car dashboard while driving, etc.

We have actually seen this same stitch in past stories. It is not easy for the couple to find a balance in the temperament of the MR. I feel sorry for the kids, b/c this has been their example of how to act when one is angry, so they will likely display the same type of behavior.........unless the family can receive help in learning and teaching new coping skills. I am glad you are sticking with a therapist. Is the new one helping you more than the previous therapist?

[714Dad]

The kids didn't see much of this. It usually happened when they were asleep or were spending the night at the grandparents. they might see her crying after getting really mad at me for something, and they'd ask why mom was crying. i'd usually tell them that everyone needs to cry sometime, and a couple times i called them in and we all gave her a big hug together.

D6 has a temper, but for me the entire year has been about calming, being with her when she's upset, explaining the ideas of choosing how to feel, etc. the idea being that i could show her how to choose as i changed and became better. I did get mad a few times, when she hit her sister, etc. but it was over in a few seconds and then i tried to work through the feelings with her, to try and make it a teachable moment.

again, try not to hear excuses in these comments.

my wife hasn't displayed the physical anger before this past year (as i was in counseling and getting a grip on things). she's yelled and screamed at me in the past, but all the physical stuff is new. it's one of the reasons she left i think, saying i bring out the worst in her.

so i don't know what to do. she just grew increasingly unhappy it seems throughout the year, bringing up older and older stuff but never processing it out.

at one point she said "i guess i'm not over all these things from the past." whereas before she would always talk about forgiveness and how important it was. how feelings were your choice and one had to choose to be happy - that no one else could do it for them. at the time i couldn't comprehend it. i was so lodged in frustration and discontent.

i so want my W to go to IC, but i, as the LBH, can't bring it up. as i've said, i so want her to be happy. i feel very responsible for her unhappiness and i just want her to smile and laugh again. and of course, i want that to be with me. i'd rather see her happy though.

this [censored].

[asitis]

Sandi,

I am going to say (usual song) there is a difference between the WW and the WAW. I really believe core DB is best with the latter, the WAW has needs not satisfied in the R and the strategy is going to be very different than that with a WW.

V

I still have my daily votive so peace to you, your H and D.

I was reading through this latest in a great series thanks to Sandi2.

I'm curious V (& Sandi of course, as you always have great insights), where you think the difference is in how to act w/ a WAW vs. a WW. In my limited experience w/ my W & seeing others here, there is a great deal of similarity, at least until there is significant movement back to the R.

There is a lot of anger, coldness, being done, pushing away, wanting nothing but to be away from the M and the H. Our super H game drives them away hard, and they lose a good deal of respect, and all this baffles the crap out of the poor LBH as he feels he can't win. I'm doing what you said, and the more I do the further away you pull. Anyway, we all know the story well enough.

Where I can see a difference is that H has to keep showing that he will be trustworthy to attend to at least many of those complaints if the WAW reconsiders. You can't go back to being a slob, then she knows it was just an act to get her back and you lose all credibility.

The key, at least the way I see it, is that you have to start deciding that you want to be fully engaged in your own household no matter where it is. It will not draw her back, but she sees that she can't trust your changes to last in this area, then she's going to doubt any other change. In a sense you drop trying to be super H and just act like a damn grown up. Become a better dad (that's attractive & good for everyone). Take care of wherever you are living. As a result of going through the Good Housekeeping campaign is that I came to appreciate a clean house much more. I no longer want to live with relying on someone else to keep tabs on when things have reached a level they can't tolerate then start handing out chores. I want to be responsible for making that decision and taking steps myself.

The other difference is that when there is clear & sustained signs of moving back, the process changes. There is a loss of trust in both situations, but it is nowhere near the same. And in the case of a WAW, you aren't dealing with the addiction and withdrawal from the OM. Not sure that wariness to changing the game plan changes for either LBH, but it the process would seem to be less littered with land mines.

Thoughts?

[sandi2]

where you think the difference is in how to act w/ a WAW vs. a WW.

MWD has not made such a distinction in her book. I think I've even said that the difference I've noticed while being on the board, is that the WAW may have a legit reason for leaving, such as Vanilla. However, there are some women who just want out the M, and it's not b/c of anything really awful, and it's not b/c they are wayward. Let me try to explain how I see it.

First of all, I understand what V is saying, b/c she comes from an abusive stitch. I cannot speak first hand of what it would take in such a case. I would think the approach would certainly be more delicate and the LBH would have to be the one proving that his actions matched with words of sincerity & promise, etc., for a credible length of time......which would be decided by his W. Whatever it took for her to feel safe and loved, that's what he'd need to do. I'll leave that part in Vanilla's hands.

It's been said that when you have a S in MLC, you still do the same BD work as you would if they were a WAS. However, I've also seen those who have experienced MLC say that there are a few differences in how to "work" it. I think that's why everyone's stitch is unique and we have to do whatever works for us.

I believe there are a lot of WAW's out there who simply get fed up from years of living in a lousy situation that has become their life. They have needs that have not been met for a long time. They want to escape, or a new start, or they're depressed & sad and looking for some way to be happy again........there are various reasons for a woman to leave a M. Some may have a very good reason (abuse, addiction, prison, etc.) while others may not be seen as a "good enough" reason to leave. The point is that some WAW's just want out of the M, but they aren't living a wayward lifestyle or displaying the usual wayward behaviors. If there is no abuse, desertion, addiction, or endangerment of some type.....and the W leaves I believe the LBH can follow MWD's general advice about the WAW. (Note, MWD has not made such a distinction between the WW/WAW). I believe he can follow the 37 guide lines, the LRT, the last resort after the LRT.....which is "going dark".

To me, the main difference I see in the strategies, or approaches, are that with a wayward wife the H has to apply a tougher love and hold firm boundaries that will withstand her manipulation, disrespect, selfishness, and terrible behavior. He has to be tougher than his WW. Her character changes into someone he doesn't recognize, and she will chew him up alive....then spit him out, to get what she wants at that moment. If that doesn't require tough love, I don't know what does.

Clear as mud?

[asitis]

I just see a lot of the anger, LBH acting like super H causing further desire for distance, and using nastiness as a means to back the LBH off as similar in a lot of WAW sitches here (including mine) that strike me as more like a WW wo/ the A.

For instance, she loses respect and attraction for H as a man. She is in no mood to even consider the actions of her H as anything she has any interest in considering. It is not that her eye is on OM/OW, but that she just is in pain and running. The pain is in part that deep down she knows she is leaving something she vowed to stick w/ and has been socialized since a young age as seeing this as so important to her identity & her responsibility for maintaining. She wants to be selfish. She wants time away from being W & mother, although she's another socialized no-no that is going to make her feel guilty & angry.

The re-writing history & storytelling, often combined w/ the well-meaning friends, family, & therapist, amp up any anger that is there. And she just feels a visceral aversion to H.

It seems to me that much of the suggestions you make in the case of a WW apply to this kind of WAW. Don't try to prove through being super H that she should return (although address the issues, just don't go overboard or think that this is the path out). Don't think that as long as she is having this revulsion that anything you do will draw her back. You need to change this dynamic by becoming attractive as a man again by the time she starts losing some of the peak of this anger & revulsion. You must not do things which contribute to her losing respect for you as a man.

That can be drawn out of MWD's advice on WAWs, but you focus on that in a way she doesn't that can be good for LBSs of WAWs I think.

Obviously, if there has been abuse (there is almost always some emotional abuse in that people who are close to each other know how to push each other's buttons and sometimes do, and I know that I strayed into this territory more than I realized). That is clearly a different case, & there is only one thing for the LBH to do in that case: get help for their abusive behavior immediately and stick w/ it. Not because it will save their M, but because it is causing everyone to suffer greatly and might land him in jail at some point.

Anyway, I know I have gained some helpful insights in my own case despite my W being WA rather than W. Wish I had learned them earlier, but we are where we are. So, even us LBHs of WAWs are gaining a lot from following these threads.

[Cadet]

where you think the difference is in how to act w/ a WAW vs. a WW.

the WAW may have a legit reason for leaving, such as Vanilla. However, there are some women who just want out the M, and it's not b/c of anything really awful, and it's not b/c they are wayward.

I will throw in my .02 on what I see as part of this process.
The LBS detachs and works on self,
this action repeats over and over until the LBS
becomes the WAS.
At which point it is possible that the WAS/WWW/MLC'er becomes the LBS.
When this is pointed out of course everyone remains in DENIAL.