hold on! - 11

[JellyB]

V and U I have to own up to having a few of these deep temper tantrums with my ex. Never any violence, but outright emotional outbursts when in the depth of depression often triggered by a perceived rejection or abandonment either physical or emotional by my ex.

V your screaming banshee reference always makes me cringe.

I am wholly embarrassed by my behaviour. "Unraveling " I was. This behaviour is so outside my belief system and values.

I am so sorry for your experience U of being on the receiving end of so much hurtful and abusive behaviour.

How you are managing yourself in this situation U is admirable . I hope to carry myself in the same way. To banish this behaviour from my life and relationships.

Thanks for being honest about it. Thanks to V for being so honest about her experiences, it provides much food for thought, fodder for change!

Ps U - might clean and do some maintance on my bikes this weekend, get them ready for when I am able to do some miles....

Thinking of U

JB xxx

[u-turn]

Hi V.
I did not report this. I told nobody. It was never even discussed or ever brought up again by the two of us.

I was brought up thinking that I need to do anything for family - anything. and that anything would not be calling the police on them for losing their temper (for something that I did or didn't do). I felt it would be a way of not being a good friend, husband, family to alert anyone about this or anything else. So I kept it to myself. If I did not protect my W, I am not a good man. (this has been a real struggle for us/me throughout our marriage and even before we were married - often she did not trust me to go to the ends of the earth to protect her - and brings up past instances.)

I honestly don't even know if she would remember this incident or at least remember it the way I do - it may be completely gone from her memory.

When I brought up Saturday's morning's death threat on Saturday evening, she rolled her eyes, gave me the "oh please - stop over-reacting and being weak" look (I know that's mind reading, but I don't know how else to explain it).

Now - the way I have talked/written here for the last couple of days, I have only brought up very negative instances of violence and control. This is how life was all the time. It was not consistently like this. Most of the time I was really happy with our life and I believe she was too (or at least I thought she was). These outbursts may have only happened once a year or even longer (of course currently that is not the case - there have been more outbursts and broken things in the last 18 months than the prior 20 years). and this was the only incident that I can remember that became physically violent.

So I don't know if there is a pattern of this, and I have not talked as much about my roll in these incidents. (it really seems like I am just bashing on W - she would surely defend all of this)

Though, sadly, in a conversation that I had with S21 a while back about why he left home, he felt controlled and manipulated by is mother and he did not trust her (felt she stole money from him).

Sorry - long rambling answer to your question.
Thanks V

[u-turn]

Jelly - thank you for sharing that - but you see it/acknowledge it/can possibly do something about it. That's growth. I guess we are all learning a lot about ourselves (silver lining).

In fear of being offensive again (you gave me the go ahead Jelly). I really thought this is probably just how all women are and something that 1. men just have learn to deal with in their private home life or 2. men push themselves away to spend all of their time in their man cave - isolating themselves from their W and family or 3. they leave - move on.

My group of male friends didn't talk about their home life, so my assumption was, their's must be just like mine. I was married and had kids before most of my friends and the only other model that I had was my brother's R with his xw (and that was almost always tumultuous - so shew, relief, I knew we were in better shape than them, so everything better than that must be normal and good). I didn't have any real relationship experience other that with W (high school dating only).

I chose to ignore the bad and try to constantly smooth things out - and apparently in the wrong ways.

Thank you for your kind words Jelly. (you must be feeling better to consider cycling - I've been trying to ride at least every other day, but the weather has been pretty bad - I'm kind of a fair weather rider right now and don't like riding in too much wind - excuses, excuses ).

cheers!

[JellyB]

Hey U,

Please don't doubt that there was some goodness, connection in your relationship with your wife. I only say this because I feel that my ex thought that because I was talking about my unhappiness with my life( feeling unfilled in my work, with no other opportunities to pursue other work because of the very small town we lived in, that I felt isolated and lonely due moving away from my home town, and because I wanted him to priorize "us/me more" ) that i was saying ALL of our life was crap, that he was crap. it all sounded like blame to him. This wasn't in fact the case. I loved the life we were building, I just needed a few more things than he was capable of providing at that time ( I am now beginning to think possibly ever but this is new thought).

As for your 1-3. No not all,women turn into emotional monsters when not getting their needs meet or triggered to childhood issues. And yes men do need to learn to manage women's waves of emotion and insercuity. But they don't need to manage and tolerate abuse. And as I have come to understand the man cave and the distance created by a mans occupation there is an essential part of managing his emotional well being and ability to stay emotionally engaged to his spouse. (Man cave for me = rejection and abandonment= emotional monster). As for number 3 some men do leave, thus why I am here and you are in your current position.

I never dreamed in a million years I would behave in such a manner as to leaving my ex feeling small and blamed and abused. I loved him, why would I treat him in such a way. I know the answers now, but that's after losing him and being confronted with that loss. I look back now and wonder what exactly I was unhappy about. It was all so surmountable.

Being dedicated to your family U, is an extremely honourable and attractive quality and should never be undervalued. I appreciate your sentiment about it making you vulnerable to maybe not seeing things or acting as assertively as you may have liked. But it sounds to me that you are well on your way to addressing this.

PS I'm a fair weather rider too! I was told by my first boyfriend also a cyclist that I needed to make the wind my friend...I did a 100 km bike event and it had a head wind for the last 25km, let me tell you the wind was not my friend and I told it so. Unclassy language for a girl!

[Vanilla]

Jelly, U

Abuse, ranting and damage are always unacceptable however it is. Frustration with ones own life is ones own responsibility.

Jelly, the type of abuse which is systamatic is very different to either situational or reactive abuse. screaming banshee was my reaction to WH, a response wholly unacceptable and ineffective. It's a behaviour I am deeply ashamed of, and a reaction to WH.

Situational abuse such as you describe for yourself is that which is a part of life, also unacceptable for every reason I can think of. It can stop and be redirected.

Full blown psychological abuse and which is systamatic arises out of permanent personality disorders or control, it sounds terrible but these guys know what they are doing, do it deliberately and feel no shame. They have no guilt and don't recognise they are responsible. They like it as it satisfies their need for control and they feel no need to change nor do they want to. This abuse is getting the abuser what they want and need. This is my WH.

Systamatic abusers may be held accountable for their actions because there are adverse consequences, and they may stop because of condemnation. Ultimately though there is no conscience for this abuser.

Jelly without going further I can truly say that by being here and working DB with everything you have, you hold yourself responsible for you and that which you do. That is enough to place you in the human race as falling short for a while and behaving unacceptably. Breathe, forgive yourself and as far as possible just atone. I have forgive Vanilla for her screaming banshee and made amends for that. I do believe it, and when this shadow character ever appears then I know there is something I need to do for myself otherwise she would not be there. There is much to learn.

U, can I assure you, most of us lovely ladies have the odd moment in our lives when we react in unacceptable ways. It isn't a life style choice and can be for a period in our lives, we learn and move forwards. Essentially I think and I truly believe men and women are more alike than we are different. many of the differences, men from Mars etc are statistically insignificant anyway. At our core we all have a higher power and the beliefs and actions that make us valuable human beings are common to both.

I worry about you U in your sitch. I am praying for you U and the best outcome for you and your family. Please take great care.

Peace

V

[u-turn]

JB - V - thank you. I'm not sure how to respond to all of this (but will - feeling a little out of sorts right now) but wanted to thank you both for sharing all of this. I also want to say that I again didn't mean to offend anyone (if I did). (I hope that you did not feel that I was accusing all women of being like my W).

I feel that in my case, the man cave option was not one that I picked as that would be consciously removing myself from my W and family; not something that I wanted to do. But - as you pointed out up there JB, career - that may have been my man cave. At the time - all the time I let the excuse fly *I am doing this for my W and kids - that is why I work so much*. That is not fair - I could have been so much more balanced - I am balanced now, but the damage had been done already.

and now I am preparing myself to do #3 and this is nothing that I ever wanted.

JB - you mentioned also how exhausting it must be to love someone that doesn't feel that love is deserved (or something like that). I also think the my W feels that about me, love, and happiness. She has commented on all of this - she has felt responsible for all of this with me - and was exhausted by this. She wanted me to go to counseling for this, but I was slow to do this.

But now that I am controlling these things about me and for me, she still does not want to jump on board - and now I am feeling, oh well, your loss. I feel like I have lost the need for her and maybe that was the love I used to feel. Maybe it wasn't love, maybe it was my need for her. That's scary to think that I misunderstood this.

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anyway - IC on wednesday (my weekly rant as I think about it). She again was a little shocked about the way things are unraveling. She is concerned too (thanks for your concern V). I guess I should be concerned about things getting worse and not being just isolated incidences. So I made efforts to protect ourselves.

boring honesty section: we have guns in our house - riffles and shotguns for sport. no handguns. (I used to have a handgun but got rid of it when I was feeling suicidal and just having this in the house made me think of it and how easy it would be to...). The sporting guns, I and my S17 & S21 have and use them for (hunting, target shooting, trap shooting) - we treat them like tools to do certain jobs - (no different than a hammer or screwdriver). Or sporting equipment - (no different than a frisbee or hockey skates). But anyway - I have removed all of the ammunition for these guns from our house for the time being. It is in a safe location.
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I have a real sore feeling over this - over and over and over, she proves herself to me -- so why is this so difficult for me to just pull the trigger and be done. I can hardly be in a room with her without feeling red-eyed anger. I just keep replaying the weekend over in my mind which reminds me of past incidences. (going to IC actually doesn't help with this as we talk about these things and I remember more and more).

time to mentally prep for another weekend

[CaliGuy]

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I have a real sore feeling over this - over and over and over, she proves herself to me -- so why is this so difficult for me to just pull the trigger and be done. I can hardly be in a room with her without feeling red-eyed anger. I just keep replaying the weekend over in my mind which reminds me of past incidences. (going to IC actually doesn't help with this as we talk about these things and I remember more and more).

time to mentally prep for another weekend

Interesting choice of words there U ...lol

I lean to feel her rage ... increasing in nature is do to lack of control as I think we have talked about. You are getting stronger, and this is NOT how she pictured everything would pan out. Toss on the spew jacket ... I am telling you from first hand experience ... that fear of the unknown is nothing compared to the terror you are living with my friend.

She will have to loose you before she hits rock bottom, before she will even attempt to look in the mirror and admit she needs to change ... if she ever does. My W was as proud and stubborn as they come, God dealt her a few blows and its amazing what a shot of humility does to them, a woman I have known more than half my wife, real similar to yours is now actually kind and remorseful. Never in 100 years would I have dreamed it.

Hang in there man .. as always I am a fan

[u-turn]

Yeah - I was going to fix that fine choice of words before sending, but nah.

Funny thing, I was actually talking about my own red-eyed anger now. I don't show it to her, but I am really having an issue with her being in the same vicinity as me. I am super cool by my self and with the kids all day long, super cool in the evening through night, it's the 45 minutes that I see her on most days that brings this on - (I know detachment). I think she knows this/senses this, but we both know that this is my issue, not hers.

She has not spewed since the weekend - Started by being overly nice, trying to bond with the kids a little (but they don't seem to want to give her much time - and she gives up easily) (by the way, this is my fault too)

Thanks for hanging in there with me Cali

[Vanilla]

U

Sincerely never offended by honesty and personal views. I am always free to challenge your views and you to refine them.

Anger is part of the grief curve and I have quite a liberal view on it. Anger is a primary limbic emotion normally when posters post about their anger I sense shift, I am rarely wrong, so there is many times something I like in the grief process.

Anger when appropriate and expressed correctly is healing, a chance that there is motivation for change, anger is great for initiating change. An enormous force for good.

Anger isn't terrific if it seeks revenge. Resentment is really tough on the one with anger. Being angry isn't a bad thing, in fact it's almost a mistake to be angry and ignore it. It's a key sign a core boundary has been infringed. Anger seeks justice. Burying it creates hate and resentment. as they say better out than in. accept you are angry, give yourself space, then say it appropriately, agree to disagree. Then go punch a punchbag.

Unjustified 'anger' is entitlement not anger at all. So it is good to know is what are you angry with, do I have a valid angry response or am I secretly irritated by something else and this is the way it is emerging? Is a human basic right or a core boundary infringed or am I being an @rse. The former needs action and the latter a 2x4.

One area I disagree U is that this is WW issue too, somewhere you may need to express the anger and this is where you have the choice. WW will have sensed the shift in you, anger changes posture, tone and affect in a way other emotions don't.

So the key question is how will you express the anger?

Can you do this in a constructive way?

Can you manage this and what is your plan for it?

It's an important turning point.

V

[u-turn]

V-you're good. Your questions always make me think of more than I think you're asking.

There it is again - something in human emotion and feelings that I don't understand. Don't know the difference (anger/resentment)(I had problems understanding guilt/shame a while back), so I research.

(I realize that this sounds ridiculous that I am 45 years old and don't understand what resentment is. This concerns me - I am learning this all now - I didn't understand these things (along with so many other things) throughout my whole life and that must have been really difficult for W to live with. I never understood or could express what my feelings were. It makes me sound like a very 2 dimensional person (no depth, no feeling, no understanding) sort of a cardboard cutout of a person.)

----

I guess I do not deal with my anger, I don't express anger, I don't tend to release anger. I think that I have seen other people's anger as a sign of lack of self control. In rare times where I have shown anger or tried to deal with it, I was embarrassed by it, I felt guilt for loosing my temper. I was showing weakness and losing my self control.

So Is this anger that I feel right now? Did I mean that I have anger over the situation or the latest abusive incidents - probably not. Now we are in the territory where I feel like more damage is being done - resentment. This is probably where I am, what I am feeling.

I read this in a couple places when trying to figure out what resentment is:

Resentment refers to the mental process of repetitively replaying a feeling, and the events leading up to it, that goads or angers us.

and

Resentment is like drinking poison – and expecting the other person to die.

Well - I really fear this is what is actually going on with me. Am I going to be able to release this feeling? Is the only way I am going to release this is with a D? Will the resentment be gone after we D? Is this resentment the reason I am now pursuing the D? (or is it just part of the equation?)

Is there a way to convert this resentment to a healthier anger (if there is such a thing)?

So, like I said, I am ok almost all the time that I am not with her, and then suddenly my mood changes when she appears - that may be resentment that I feel - she has done nothing in that instance to change my mood, just came home. I used to anticipate her arrival at home with happiness - then after BD I anticipated her arrival at home with hopes that today was the day that she saw the light and the fog lifted, now I dread her arrival at home because I know my mood changes (she must hate this - actually she hates this and has told me that). And this is mostly why I mentally prepare myself for emotionally challenging weekends because of the extra time that is spent together.

Is this resentment actually contagious to other people and W is right that I am poisoning everyone's mind about her?

This is why I said that this is on me not her. Sure - I can tell her all of this, but I do not think it will amount to much, it will make me sound weak, it will make it sound like I need her and need her to help me through this and she is NOT interested in this.

Now - I do realize Lady V - this answers none of the questions that you asked me, but your questions really did redirect me and cause me to dig deeper into my thoughts and feelings - you actually do a much better job with this than my IC.

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on another note:

I went to a graduation party of a friend's daughter this afternoon (this friend is also W's confidante throughout this whole situation). I wasn't going to go and did not want to go with W as a couple, but about an hour after W went I decided that I was invited too - she was my friend too (this I struggle with and did today too - I don't feel like she was a friend of our marriage - maybe this is a story for another time though). When I got to the party, I felt so awkward, I knew a lot of people there, but felt like I was treated differently by many. I stayed for a short time talked to a couple people, but left about an hour later. I did say goodbye to our friend and gave her a hug - I think she understood why I was leaving. I am saying all of this because this is a big 180 for me to go to a social gathering like this with friends on my own. (I have a feeling that these are all going to be former friends - that makes me sad - I need to work on this so it does not happen).

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having good times with my kids then (as usual). Sometimes I feel like I may be leaning on them too much - though is giving them attention leaning on them - it is a mutual pma boost for all of us?

Also, I finally got to D15 about telling her she can come to me if she wants to talk about what's going on at home. She has been so reluctant to talk to me about it. I have offered, but she literally runs away when I have brought it up. This time she looked at me and said Okay - thanks . That is a success.

Onward!