Working on it, but affair hasn't ended yet...

[t33]

t33,

Sorry to hear you are going though this. It is nice that you have someone telling you what is going through her mind right now. My wife has been confiding in friends and I hear 3rd hand that she is 100% ready for the divorce. That is all they say. I wish I could hear the crap she is really saying to them. I am sure most of it is lies to get validation from them. I don't even talk to those friends anymore. They could care less about my side of the story. It is like the EA does not matter to them. They think it is my fault, that I pushed her to it.

Thanks WhyUs. Ya, it's crazy. It doesn't make any sense - which is to be expected. From what I hear, sometimes she's resigned to that fact, other times she sounds conflicted and confused. Everyone "seems" to be on my side and the family's side - but they try to stay neutral for her to not push her away. Nobody to this point (that I know of) thinks it's my fault or I pushed her there. I'm sure there is a friend or two that is feeding that to her, but nothing I can do. Most everyone is just shocked at how much she's changes over the past few months.

Of course, just like the book says, she just pushes those people out of her life.

Exactly. So it's good people are staying neutral for her. Still, how does she figure it out? She told her friend I was smothering her. I felt I've backed off tremendously except for this weekend when she initiated the contact and us spending the time together. Her friend asked if she wanted me to start staying long hours at work again. She said no. She asked what she did want. Of course her answer was she didn't know.

I guess all I can hope for is things will change in time. I just hope she doesn't suck our finances dry while figuring it out.

[CaliGuy]

Totally agree. He's in a tricky spot being both our friend, and I am concerned that he doesn't overshare my side. He said he doesn't, but of course it's tough territory and I have to be care.

I would detach from him a bit, if your W gets a whiff that he has been talking to you about her .. bad ... even worse if he relays any intel for her .. BAD, you need to detach from her and have her wondering what you are doing. Its typically not good to be talking to family or friends about relationships .. forces them to take a side one way or the other, and becomes awkward if you reconcile later.

Yep, again I understand and agree. So hard to deal with this. I did see her phone this morning and she did text him on Monday, after our great weekend. Not much conversation, but the gist was,

W: Do you want me to continue texting you?
OM: I don't mind.
W: Have you missed us?

More innocuous texting, but no response to the question. So, A detox back to Day 1 (for now).

^^ Tells you what you need to know, she is still all about the A and the OM. Regardless of how 'great' a weekend you two have.

With you availible, how does she miss you? How will she question what she has done? ... Right now, she won't

I took a while to respond because I wanted to think about the answers and it's difficult to come up with 5 of each. Here goes for now:

5 things you like about yourself

• I'm in a good career position and increasingly successful with good opportunities ahead
• I am a great father and my kids love me
• I like exploring new things and enjoy new foods and experiences
• My family is financially comfortable
• People look up to me and enjoy my company

5 Things you don't

• I work so many hours I'm not always around for my family
• I don't have many friends
• Other than work I don't really have any hobbies (or desire for any)
• I'm not as confident as people think I am
• My focus at work is not there and my performance is suffering

Can you see how Detaching, 180, PMA and most of all GAL would really nuke the top 5 things you are not happy about?
Now next question, how much of that do you need to suffer through to start actually DBing and make some changes in your life?

The friend she went to dinner with called me today. Told me that she opened up about not loving me and that she was set on getting a divorce, etc. Basically told me that she was taking me for a ride and sucking as much money as she could along the way. When her friend asked if she'd contacted a divorce lawyer yet, she said she was just taking it day by day. I guess that means she's not out yet. I'm sure it's still her wrapped into the EA, and rewriting history, but very troubling and demoralizing.

Again.... you have to many people feeding you to much info on where your W is. She is either laying the grounds so the D will not be a shock, or they are mindreading and giving you their takes on things .... T33 HOW is THIS HELPING YOU?... its not .. it has you all up in her head and obsessed with what she does, where she goes, and whith whom ..... guess how she is obsessed with .. OM she can not have .. can you see the trend here>?

Thanks to this I have that stupid J Geils Band song stuck in my head .. "you love her, she loves him, he loves somebody else man you just can't win"

Until you realize all the energy you are wasting .. and I do mean wasting on her would be more benificial spent on DB'ing for you, rebuilding your confidence, getting to a place where you are ok no matter what she does, when, with who .. you are going to be sadly stuck.

DBing will not work if you half ass it ... wont work if you just pick a thing here and there. You need to become the better man in all this .. regardless of what your W does.

[t33]

^^ Tells you what you need to know, she is still all about the A and the OM. Regardless of how 'great' a weekend you two have.

With you availible, how does she miss you? How will she question what she has done? ... Right now, she won't

Yep. You and others have pointed this out multiple times, yet, it's so hard to actualize. We're still in best friend mode. Must be nice for her to go about her business and still have me. It's so hard for me to let go of my best friend. I wish I had a better pool of friends to draw from - it's just been so long since I've needed/wanted to do anything with anyone else.

5 Things you don't

• I work so many hours I'm not always around for my family
• I don't have many friends
• Other than work I don't really have any hobbies (or desire for any)
• I'm not as confident as people think I am
• My focus at work is not there and my performance is suffering

Can you see how Detaching, 180, PMA and most of all GAL would really nuke the top 5 things you are not happy about?

I suppose so. PMA and GAL make sense in dealing with this. Detaching yes, and I'm struggling with it. It's been so long since I've done anything for myself and not the W or family it is extremely hard - I guess that's the point. I keep re-reading sandi's post and try to implement them. Some I'm successful at, some I'm failing. Trying to figure out what other 180s I can apply.

Now next question, how much of that do you need to suffer through to start actually DBing and make some changes in your life?

You have been a constant voice of reason and support. Thank you for that. You must think I'm some kind of masochist at this point. I have a feeling I'm going to continue asking stupid/obvious questions. Just in a weird place.

it has you all up in her head and obsessed with what she does, where she goes, and whith whom ..... guess how she is obsessed with .. OM she can not have .. can you see the trend here>?

Hmm - Yep.

You need to become the better man in all this .. regardless of what your W does.

That is true. I feel I keep losing myself in all of this. I've made compromises and done things I'd never thought. This is a good ideal to strive for, I hope I can do that and not lose myself completely in the process. (I know, solution = detach). Strange how after 12 years of such attachment, it's so painful.

[t33]

Saw this except from BEClam's thread:

For some time now, I have been thinking she's a walkaway versus a MlCer. In both situations you would apply the same DB techniques, time, space, etc. If she were in MLC, she would have exhibited confusion, gone back in time and begun to act out like a teenager, wouldn't have much, if any interest in the children and most likely would have been spending money like it's water. I don't see your wife doing any of this. Have you?

Interestingly enough I see this exact behavior in my wife.

• exhibited confusion - Not sure about this. Though there has been confusing behavior. When we're together, things are great. She talks about how much she's enjoying. Possible children names if she's ready for that again in years (I put that aside, saying one day at a time), etc. Then during the week or when we're apart, distance and back to saying she's ready for a divorce. Confusing behavior indeed.
• gone back in time and begun to act out like a teenager - YES - Tattoos, piercings, sexual exploration, etc.
• wouldn't have much, if any interest in the children - Not really, sadly
• most likely would have been spending money like it's water - Definitely. Happy to pay for everyone's meal at the table. Expensive restaurants, expensive drinks. I've been playing along as part of my 180 - being the fun outgoing guy and not the frugal cheapskate.

Not sure it means anything, but found it curious that my WW is exhibiting such MLC symptoms as well.

[CaliGuy]

T33 .... no you are not a masochist, you will notice the reason many post and try to help is because ... well to be honest we all have been there, we know how painful it is, I know how hard detaching is ... trust me I really struggle(d) there.

So like you I really did little, had zero friends. So the GAL's ... yeah .. focused on stopping that and thats one thing that really helps.

I joined a Softball team, a football team went out and did karaoke some... heck I bought a Harley (something I always wanted and was 'not allowed' by the W .... what was she going to do D me ?? lol) and go for solo rides .. always wanted to do the group rides but have yet to wake THAT early on a Saturday ... still a GAL I want to do and thats after my W has committed back to the M.

Try Meetup ... its a good starting point.

Lets commit, list a GAL you do this week, out of your comfort zone .. thats where growth starts.


As far as the MLC thing .... at 33? ... I would lean its possible but not probable, my W was a MLCr .. not on the extreme level ... I think the telling part were the eyes, it was her shell .. but no one was alive behind those eyes, and not just talking here and there, like for 2-3 years. You can look up the 6 stages of MLC, but I never got that vibe from your W, she is most likely WW ... the DBing is the same, but the MLC lasts for years if it ever ends at all.

[Vanilla]

T

You are keen to define, process, label, know and understand.

The one thing I am sure of one thing, as fast as you know the answer it will change. None of us will ever know what is inside another's mind or thoughts. It isn't possible to do that.

Cali, in his wisdom, is saying to you the label doesn't matter. You do that which works for you. If your WW is jeopardising the Fins and your future then it's time to look after you. If fun guy isn't you but quiet serious gentle is you then authentic is your middle name.

Have hobbies, friends and things you enjoy for you. Go GAL to improve you, make it a lifelong habit to have your own interests and friends. To do the things you enjoy, your own support structure independently of any R you are in. It adds balance, joy and gives perspective. Try different things, Old Dog started dancing, V has her Gamanon, toots loves new things to do, Gan has adventures, some will be for you and others won't, if a tight circle of three friends is your choice rather 2000 FB friends that's OK as well. People love a listener too.

A 180 is about doing the opposite of what you have done, that will of course change who you are by changing your behaviour in the longer term. The 180 has to be effective and authentic to you. We do the 180 because what we are doing is no longer effective. If a 180 is destructive and inauthentic then it can be worked in another way. It is a case of doing a 180 that is effective for you otherwise the 'fix' is temporary. Sometimes there is no perfect solution just a better way.

Be more of who you are and want to be. I used to say to my WH, it's great to be more self centred and less selfish.

Hugs

V

[sandi2]

Have you read the book, co-dependent no more? If not, why not check it out. Your world has become a small space that has work and family, and that's it. No personal friends, no activities just for you, no hobbies or special interest, no involvement and no GAL. This is why you are so dependent on your W. And, it has affected your self-esteem. Look at your posts and see how you put yourself down. You really do need to be on a mission to help yourself rise up and get stronger in your self-esteem and confidence. A lot of that come about when you get away from the W, kids, & home......and actually mingle with other people, doing things you enjoy or trying new things.

We're still in best friend mode. Must be nice for her to go about her business and still have me. It's so hard for me to let go of my best friend. I wish I had a better pool of friends to draw from - it's just been so long since I've needed/wanted to do anything with anyone else

.

Well sure it's nice for her! She has all the advantages of M while acting as if she's single. But let me hit you with a truth dart. She is not your best friend! Even if she's the only friend you had in the world, she is not your friend at the present time. When we treat our friends like a WW treats her H.........guess what? The friendship is over! B/c people are not going to be friends with a person who treats them that way. So, you should choose not to be in the friend mode, b/c she is not your BFF. She is simply using you and when she can't drain you of any more money or other advantages, she will be gone (if something better doesn't come along first).

The problem with your approach, is that you are trying to do what should have been done before she turned wayward. You stopped with the long work hours and have started spending that time at home (mainly to be around her). You want to be friends with her b/c you don't have a life outside of your W. Being just friends with you is fine with her. What do you see happening if you started coming in from work and then going out, looking really hot, and just saying, "I'm going out......see ya later". And when she starts with the questions (and she will), you just say, "I don't know", as you're closing the door.

I suppose so. PMA and GAL make sense in dealing with this. Detaching yes, and I'm struggling with it. It's been so long since I've done anything for myself and not the W or family it is extremely hard - I guess that's the point. I keep re-reading sandi's post and try to implement them. Some I'm successful at, some I'm failing. Trying to figure out what other 180s I can apply.

Maybe you are stuck on the 180 thing. Maybe you are seeing it as more of improving yourself to please her, so that she won't leave you. Have you tried setting some small goals for yourself? Why not set a goal based on getting a higher level of confidence? Plan at least one thing for one night this weekend that will get you out of the house and away from your security blanket (wife & kids). Research on the Internet or go to the library and get information about meeting people and making new friends, having a healthy self-esteem, confidence, etc. Going to the library could be a good "mysterious" place to get you out, that your W knows nothing about. Just a thought.

Learn to tell her you are going out for a while and don't know how long you'll be. She will probably ask all kind of questions, but you don't give her details. Don't lie, but give vague answers. That causes some interest and curiosity , especially if she has been seeing you as predictable or boring.

Your daily life has been centered on your job and, now, your WW, until you may find it difficult to make a decision or do the simplest of activities for yourself, without first running it by her. I don't mean to sound insulting, it is a common habit that a lot of couples form b/c they see it being the considerate thing to do..... which is true, however, in a M where you have a WW, you learn to adjust a few of these type of habits. She needs to see a man who will make decisions for himself. Unless it directly involves her (or some huge decision, finances, property, the kids, and things of that nature) she needs to see her H making independent decisions without asking her. I am mainly referring to things you want to do for yourself. Example: If you want to go fishing Sat., you tell her you have plans Sat., so she will know you are not available to keep the kids. Make sense.......or does it only cause more confusion?

[V2pt0]

We're still in best friend mode. Must be nice for her to go about her business and still have me. It's so hard for me to let go of my best friend. I wish I had a better pool of friends to draw from - it's just been so long since I've needed/wanted to do anything with anyone else

.

Well sure it's nice for her! She has all the advantages of M while acting as if she's single. But let me hit you with a truth dart. She is not your best friend! Even if she's the only friend you had in the world, she is not your friend at the present time. When we treat our friends like a WW treats her H.........guess what? The friendship is over! B/c people are not going to be friends with a person who treats them that way. So, you should choose not to be in the friend mode, b/c she is not your BFF.

Sorry, this might be a bit of a hijack, so I apologize in advance, but it does relate to T. Sandi, I am curious about your stance on the friendship aspect. I know that many of us on here getting DB coaching are being told by our coaches that we should be trying to start by building friendships even with WS' with active A or who are treating us with other forms of disrespect. I have received that advice and have read other LBS thread also receiving this advice. I know everyone on here respects your opinion, so it would be nice to hear your thoughts on the DB advice. I might be missing something. This is something I have been conflicted about with the coaching. It seems often opposite of what we hear from vets on here. Maybe it is one particular coach??

[t33]

Lots of posts, thanks everyone. Apologies for the long(-ish) post, but I figured I'd make one response rather than multiple.

T33 .... no you are not a masochist, you will notice the reason many post and try to help is because ... well to be honest we all have been there, we know how painful it is, I know how hard detaching is ... trust me I really struggle(d) there.

...and thank you (and everyone) for that. It's so hard, I need the constant reinforcement and course correction.

Lets commit, list a GAL you do this week, out of your comfort zone .. thats where growth starts.

So last night, I got home about 8:15pm, kissed the girls while W was scowling with them because they were stalling and not going to sleep. Told her I was going out and would be back later. She asked where, I said to meet a buddy.

I drove off, parked a few blocks down the road and took a long walk to a bar down on the main street. Had 2 drinks by myself and then walked back to the car and got home around 10:15pm (my goal was to stay out until 10pm).

I know the GAL is more for me than her, but still, I felt I needed to start detaching and pulling back and this was a start. We didn't really talk more than a dozen or two words the rest of the night and went to bed.

This morning she was more withdrawn and we got ready with minimal words. The past few weeks we would always get coffee and/or breakfast before work. As we left, I said I was stopping to get coffee, she was welcome to join, and if not, no worries. Halfway to work she texts, "I'll get coffee with ya". I ignored it and drove to the cafe. I pulled up right after her, popped out of the car and said, "oh, hey - you're here!". She said she texted me and then I looked at my phone as if I hadn't known. We had a bit of coffee and smoke and didn't really talk much. She asked what I did last night, and I said I met up with a friend from out of town for a few drinks and we had a great time. I said I had a great day overall yesterday.

I suppose I didn't have to tell her I was going and just went. But I feel like I'm trying to lovingly detach and not be an A-Hole.

As far as the MLC thing .... at 33? ... I would lean its possible but not probable, ... the DBing is the same, but the MLC lasts for years if it ever ends at all.

Well, the DB-ing is the same, so I suppose it doesn't really matter and could be even worse if it lasts for years! I'll try not to focus on that.

You are keen to define, process, label, know and understand.

The one thing I am sure of one thing, as fast as you know the answer it will change. None of us will ever know what is inside another's mind or thoughts. It isn't possible to do that.

Yes I am. It's what I do and need to learn not to do. I've always been like that, it's a process to undo - even though I know you are totally correct.

If your WW is jeopardising the Fins and your future then it's time to look after you. If fun guy isn't you but quiet serious gentle is you then authentic is your middle name.

And I will. I pay bills tomorrow, so it'll be an easier conversation to explain we have to pull back based on our spending the last few months.

As for me, yes, serious and gentle is authentic and I'm trying not to lose that. But at the same time Fun and crazy is also a bit authentic. I had just suppressed that a bit with a W and kids to look after. I became very frugal and held back because of big plans for the future, but I do want more fun - it's just a shame that this whole thing brought me here as opposed to spicing life up before things deteriorated.

A 180 is about doing the opposite of what you have done, that will of course change who you are by changing your behaviour in the longer term.

And I suppose that's what I'm trying to do. Have more fun for myself rather than repress for everyone else's benefit.

The 180 has to be effective and authentic to you. We do the 180 because what we are doing is no longer effective.

And what I had been doing hasn't been effective. Long hours, frugal spending, conservative actions, no fun. Of course the initial idea is to behaviorally change for my wife to become interested in me again. I realize based on various threads and the posting on mine that for the 180s to really have an effect, they need to be authentic and actually cause change in me for them to be noticed. I do feel like I'm faking my way through a bit. But I'm hoping I can fake it until it's real. Similar to the PMA - I feel miserable, but around the W I keep PMA and a smile.

Have you read the book, co-dependent no more?

I have not - I've just requested it at the library.

When we treat our friends like a WW treats her H.........guess what? The friendship is over! B/c people are not going to be friends with a person who treats them that way. So, you should choose not to be in the friend mode, b/c she is not your BFF. She is simply using you and when she can't drain you of any more money or other advantages, she will be gone (if something better doesn't come along first).

That's a great statement. While it's hard for me to really know what to do, I can certainly cue off her behavior and reciprocate while still trying to be gentlemanly and PMA.

The problem with your approach, is that you are trying to do what should have been done before she turned wayward.

You know what they say about hindsight...

What do you see happening if you started coming in from work and then going out, looking really hot, and just saying, "I'm going out......see ya later". And when she starts with the questions (and she will), you just say, "I don't know", as you're closing the door.

Similar to what I did last night, but not so forceful. That seems border line rude to me, and she hasn't been rude. I need to come up with a nice, but strong way of doing that. Other than her extra-curricular activities at work, we've never been to a place where we just leave without at least an indication of where we're going - but I guess your point is she's earned this behavior from me.

Maybe you are stuck on the 180 thing. Maybe you are seeing it as more of improving yourself to please her, so that she won't leave you.

Well, yes. The hope is that they also help me - but yes you are correct.

Going to the library could be a good "mysterious" place to get you out, that your W knows nothing about. Just a thought.

To ignore her questions (which you point out she will ask) will be a challenge in order to build mystery. My instinct is that will only cause her to pull back further and start doing her own thing without telling me and separate us further. I assume this is expected and I assume this is the gamble. I'm also guessing that the work towards detachment is the only way to survive this.

Make sense.......or does it only cause more confusion?

I believe it makes sense, I posted my queries above, but ya - it's hard. Your statements aren't insulting, they are true. We've been so ingrained to just tell each other everything, it's a weird feeling to just stop and pursue things separately.

I am curious about your stance on the friendship aspect. I know that many of us on here getting DB coaching are being told by our coaches that we should be trying to start by building friendships even with WS' with active A or who are treating us with other forms of disrespect.... I might be missing something. This is something I have been conflicted about with the coaching. It seems often opposite of what we hear from vets on here.

No threadjack as it totally relates. I got the same thing from my DB coach. I've got another session today, so based on the last 2 weeks progress I'll be curious to see what he has to say and will relay.

I hope this post wasn't too overwhelming, but there was such a great wealth of information here, I hope people can get through the verbage with feedback!

[t33]

Who's ready for a little over-analysis?

So, I had coffee with WW this morning. We parted ways at 8am, she gave me a cheek kiss, I didn't reciprocate (first time), but did give her a little side hug. I got in my car and drove off, didn't wait for her to drive off first. No contact since then. Then:

W: How's it going? (11:03am)
Me: Good! You? (11:05am)
W: Super busy but good (11:05am)
Me: nice! busy busy - worky worky (11:05am)

No response. Was this the appropriate way to deal with it? I don't want to ignore her (and be an A-hole) - and she knows I'm text/email on my phone all day for work, so I can't play I didn't see it...but I did keet it brief and didn't followup with anything else.

Of course this doesn't feel right to me...but I want to do what works - not what feels right...