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Originally Posted By: Wonka
Sorry for the hijack, Defacto.

Starsky, would you please be a dear and mosey over to NDY's thread as I've called out for your help with a small bit for him? mwah smile

No problem, Wonka! I did the same thing to Starsky to get him over to my thread.
If I ask nice enough, will you give me your .03? Please! (I'm pursuing, I know!)


Me:35 W:30
D:4 S:1
Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA
In House Separation: 01/14/15
W moves out: 04/05/15
I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15
W serves D papers: 06/19/15
Mediation: 09/16/15
D final: 12/01/15
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 569
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Originally Posted By: Starsky309

You should have said you already had plans that day, and suggested an alternative day and time. You don't want to appear to be just sitting around, jumping at her every call!


Starsky,
Looking back, I should have played it that way. However, it started as a simple request to talk after I dropped off the kids on Saturday. I had already agreed to this when she suggested lunch instead. I will keep this in mind for next time!

GB,
I believe lunch will be just STBX and I. Also, the restaurant has a "beachy" vibe but unfortunately, is not on the beach.

I appreciated some of your scenarios for Saturday. If I rolled up in a convertible, I don't think STBX could stop laughing!! She's the one who traded in the family SUV for an Audi haha. As far as the new music is concerned, I was always the music snob so I am always listening to new tunes. No surprises there! I would still want to dress and look sharp but fit in with the occasion. I do like the idea of a contingency plan. The wait time for this restaurant is often unbearable,

But, truthfully, I don't want to overthink the logistics too much. I'd imagine we'd leave from her parent's house after I dropped off the kids. I could recommend separate cars and mention something about plans afterwards. Nonetheless, knowing myself, I need to start preparing for the potential conversation with STBX. I won't have a problem being confident and friendly. I just want to make sure I am prepared to validate, lead where applicable, all while not pursuing. Sounds easy, right?


Me:35 W:30
D:4 S:1
Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA
In House Separation: 01/14/15
W moves out: 04/05/15
I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15
W serves D papers: 06/19/15
Mediation: 09/16/15
D final: 12/01/15
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
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Starsky,

Ooops...I meant to say Squiggy's thread. This is what happens when I have my favorite tipple late at night!

Defacto,

Sure, I'd be happy to take a look in your sitch and give you my take on it.

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Journaling:
STBX called again after her work shift. Again, I let it go to voicemail.

I thought it would therapeutic to reflect on my mistakes in our MR again. Doing so will help me to better empathize with STBX's feelings. It should also help me analyze my own progress in these areas. I decided to write an apology to STBX as an exercise.

"W, I realized that I didn't value you enough as a person, as an individual, as a partner, as a lover. You needed support and appreciation, to be cherished, to feel good enough, to feel like you mattered, to be protected from all harm. What you got instead was criticism, inattention, advice, apathy, anger, and selfishness. I lost sight of what was most important. You deserved better and still do. I'm sorry, W."

I have apologized to STBX in the past. I just wanted to remind myself and make sure that I'm utilizing my time to learn from these mistakes.


Me:35 W:30
D:4 S:1
Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA
In House Separation: 01/14/15
W moves out: 04/05/15
I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15
W serves D papers: 06/19/15
Mediation: 09/16/15
D final: 12/01/15
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 449
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You want to read something that really conflicts with some of the advice you and the other guys have received here from all of us?

I've argued a couple times here on the forums about pursuing a wayward wife...well, because she's your wife and I've gotten pushback on the forum from some vets saying what I was suggesting the betrayed husband do was making him the gay friend or I was "friend zoning" the guy. I didn't push too hard because, hey, it's the board culture that has developed on it's own over many years, who am I too disagree? But I came across this "Free Advice" link out on the main website written by Michelle Weiner Davis and it just struck me as being so different than the some of the common wisdom on the forum.

I AM NOT posting it to say this is what I think you should do. I think YOU should figure out how YOU want to play this situation out and do what suits your unique personality, situation and tolerances. I'm also not saying this always MWD's advice, because it's just a letter she liked and posted and some of her other writing/advice are probably more in line with what you have been doing versus what this guy in the letter did. Finally, I kind of did more like the guy in the letter myself though OM lived across the country. I couldn't have done it if my wife was doing anything more than talking and texting with the guy at the time. I didn't avoid her. In fact, I stuck to her as much as I could. I certainly "detached" but I detached mentally, not physically, because I saw how crazy she was thinking and behaving and I just wanted to TRY to save her. If we had actually divorced I feared my wife might someday end up taking her own life. I kind of liked the idea of my children always having their mother and a normal (non wayward thinking mother) would be a nice bonus. At the time, like all of you guys, I didn't think anything I did or said was making any difference whatsoever. I thought my marriage was over...until it wasn't.

The way I see it I think your wife is probably done with OM. Her obvious turn towards you (actions) is indicative of that. Doesn't mean it won't start up again...because they still see each other regularly at work and she could be off in wayward land tomorrow. That being said, I think you've made your point with ignoring her calls and ACTING really detached. It's not making you any more attractive than you already are since she's already batting her eyelashes at you. Now COULD BE swooping in time where a confident man will go in and say what he means and say what he wants without fear of rejection. I want to emphasize -- WITHOUT FEAR OF REJECTION. THAT is detachment. If you can be her friend AND husband....point out what's good for her as her friend, how you feel, what you expect (boundaries), what you want (with "I" statements) there might not be any reason you can't turn this around VERY quickly. "Quickly" is often how these things happen...once the wife's realizes she kinda loves you....and women only love one man at a time...it usually leads to hysterical bonding followed by some painful recovery steps (some distancing pursuing dances as you negotiate recovery). She might need more time to actually "kinda love" you but she's interested...but the same goes for your "forgiveness". You might be ready to "kinda forgive" but genuine forgiveness takes a whole lot longer in these situations. Together you figure these things out and develop a new way of partnering at the same time.

She may not be ready for it. She may reject you. It will/would hurt if that happens. You may start recovery and then, before she quits that job, the affair restarts and it'll absolutely kill you to see her go 100% wayward again. There are no guarantees either way. But being authentic, direct and loving is the best way I know how to spark the recovery kindling.

Here's what MWD has posted on the main website:

Originally Posted By: Michele Weiner-Davis
WHILE YOUR WIFE DECIDES

By Michele Weiner-Davis

Perhaps you are someone whose spouse is in the midst of an affair and it is making you crazy. You feel like giving up on your marriage. Worse yet, you feel like being hurtful. Don't do anything you will regret in the long run. You came to this website because you want to save your marriage. Remember that. You need to stay focused on your goal, even if it's hard. On rough days, refer to what David, a Divorce Busting® family member, taught us about how he won back his wife. He now lives ecstatically ever after.

Michele-

I decided, early in my separation, that my wife was my best friend....ever. I resolved to NEVER allow the separation to hinder my friendship with her. I acted, from the very beginning, as a friend. I helped her move out by moving all of her stuff downstairs to help her to save money with the moving people. I loaned her money to help her get her new place. More than anything, I stuck by her when her parents were in the hospital (during March, as you remembered) and supported her space, as a single woman (her stupid boyfriend actually got jealous about her spending so much time with her sick parents). I tried very hard to not allow my pain, over her choice to leave me, to be reflected in my face, mannerisms or with respect to how I treated her. I gave her space and respected her choice to enter into a relationship with someone else. I never said anything bad about her boyfriend and was always there when he couldn’t or wouldn’t be there. We did have one big argument, but even the bad feelings associated with that argument went away. I attribute this to our friendship. Whenever anyone asks me how to act after they have been left by their partner, I have one answer...act like a friend. Perhaps all that will survive is friendship, but by preserving a friendship, you always leave the door open to something more. My wife's boyfriend began getting jealous towards the end of their relationship. He forbid her to see me (which, of course, didn't go over well at all with her). This guy was the one carrying on a romance with my wife, but he was jealous of our friendship. True, unconditional friendship is very powerful. I believe, if more people just concentrated on saving the friendship, in the true manner of a friend (along with making changes in themselves), most would have their lovers back in their arms so soon it would make them dizzy.

I still wonder about this...but I think my wife and I sort of made excuses to see each other under the guise of "family and business" matters. I think my wife really just wanted to have me near her as someone who wouldn’t pressure her into a "date" or sex or anything of that nature. Just someone to be nice to her, accept her and talk to her with no pressure. The way I figured, is that we had experienced the dating, sex and marriage relationship things. I sort of developed an attitude of "been there, done that". I challenged myself to be her truest and most devoted friend. The more I challenged myself and lived up to the challenge, the more inner power I gained.

Friendship........empathy, being there without criticism, being non-judgmental.....this is unconditional friendship.

Believe me, the decision to be a friend, against all odds, proved to be a major challenge. There were times when I truly thought of giving up, especially when the boyfriend arrived. Usually, I would come to this site and vent and request support and information. Michele, and the "family" here, never let me down.

2009 Copyright - Michele Weiner-Davis. All rights reserved.
[url=http://www.divorcebusting.com/a_while_spouse_decides.htm][/url]



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STBX called after her work shift. I answered and told her the kids were still sleeping. She asked if she could come over. I said sure.

We sat out on the revamped patio, had some coffee, and made small talk at first. Then, STBX started to talk about how she would do things differently, everything happened so fast, etc. I turned towards her and listened. We talked about how it's been hard losing your best friend. She said that she wished she had said more about being unhappy in MR before getting involved with an OP. Somewhere in there I inserted my apology for my faults in MR too. I thanked her for sharing and admitted this must be hard to share.

STBX then admitted that L had convinced her to select date to serve me D papers, this Monday. I said I appreciated the heads up. I then talked about how we are both a bundle of emotions and feelings right now. I suggested putting the D on hold and just taking the summer to rebuild our friendship and have some fun. She seemed interested in this. I did mention there would be some conditions though. She seemed startled by the mere mention of this so I didn't push it for now. She did say that I am still going to be served on Monday night.

I responded calmly and advised STBX that if we D, I would not be able to be friends with her. She wondered why. I said that a friend would do those things to another friend. She became defensive and alluded to her grievances against me.

She talked a lot about how I did irrepairable damage with sharing details with friends. I just listened and validated the best I could. I responded by saying that family is the most important priority to me. I admitted that we are headed on averts in path right now but if we ever ended up on another path, either our friends would get on board or they wouldn't be our friends, etc.

She hugged me deeply but I ended it after a few seconds so I could get S1 a drink. The rest of the time was spent attending to the kids. STBX then left and I said I'd see her later when I dropped off kids. She mentioned that she'd be sleeping.

I remained calm during the whole interaction. I was emotive when appropriate but never pleaded. We made and held eye contact at numerous times. STBX was visibly emotional at times and cried here and there. Near the end, she just told me that she came over to tell me that she would do things differently if she had it to do over again. I said that I would to.

So yeah, I don't think we are still on for lunch today. Either way, no big deal. I said things that I wanted to say and maybe they will resonate with her, or maybe not. Who knows?
It kind of felt like she was clearing her conscience a bit before she served me.


Me:35 W:30
D:4 S:1
Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA
In House Separation: 01/14/15
W moves out: 04/05/15
I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15
W serves D papers: 06/19/15
Mediation: 09/16/15
D final: 12/01/15
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,647
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Keep your chin up, bud.
The divorce only really changes how you fill out your taxes.

Keep plugging away and use the time you have!


At BD - Me: 33 Her: 33; M: 10 T: 15; D: 6 and 3

BD: 3/25/15
S: 4/20/15
D: 11/9/15
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Bummer. She's not ready. She wanted to warn you about the divorce papers. That's considerate and you did well to communicate what you want. Not much left to say. Back to distancing and getting served is usually a good time to pull back mightily. Hopefully it's an amicable filing, but that's rare. If her attorney is worth anything they will be asking for full; or, at least, primary custody and making you at most an every other weekend wednesday night dad. This is offensive but it's just an attorney tactic as the starting point in negotiations. But you don't have to act like you know that. BE offended and maybe back off communications with her (requesting that all communications be by text or an divorce/custody app because talking is hurtful) unless and until she drops the divorce (which I think she might be able to do by filing a motion of some kind saying the parties are trying to work things out so the divorce will be put on hold until X date though I'd rather she dismiss the case and file it again later if she wants to). Basically, your offer still stand about this fun summer but not with a divorce petition/fight over your head and the constant threat of being made an every other weekend dad.

She's probably going to want to comfort you about the filing on monday. That's your shot to reiterate to her to either withdraw it or stop it and give you two the summer to have fun and see if things can be worked out or you are putting a stop to these hurtful communications where she wants you to make her feel better about destroying your family. Her telling you she's having second thoughts, telling you she misses you, having sex with you in April, constantly calling and keeping tabs on you needs to stop....you need privacy (a key word to use) as you deal with the loss of your family.

Might be a good time to mention the one good thing about the divorce case is you'll get the opportunity to depose OM. [this might be a good indication of whether she is still wrapped up emotionally in OM...the more this comment effects/bothers/upsets her the more OM is still in her head and in the picture. You see, if OM dumped her to save his marriage, as I suspect, she won't care about OM anymore and feel OM used her. So if won't bother her at all if you threaten depose him..she may even have questions for him herself. But if the affair continues underground, messing with her affair partner should send off huge alarms and upset to protect her turf).


Then you'll have 21 or so days to respond but responding quickly with your own double barrel starting off negotiations point of you getting full custody, her getting every other weekend/wednesday or better yet, supervised visitation at an approved visitation center due to her mental instability might be a good little wake up call that you don't intend to simply roll over on this divorce thing and hand her primary custody. Turn the tables on her. I know even considering being a primary parent is hard but children of divorce do better with their single fathers than with their single mothers. Your wife's behavior (the affair multiplied by the inexplicable inability to apologize, make amends and do what is right) is a pretty good demonstration that she is a fairly incapable parent. You may THINK 50-50 is the best based on your perception of your wife previously but if she follows through with this...she is not that person anymore and you might be surprised at what you can get when you build a case and try. Fathers are winning primary and full custody more and more. She works nights...so the kids should be sleeping at your home every night she works and nights are what counts in custody battles. Best case, by being aggressive you might force her to find a day job away from OM simply so she doesn't lose nights in the custody battle. Away from OM may help her snap herself out of wayward land before it's too late.

The beautiful thing about filing aggressively. You TOLD her this morning you still care, miss your best friend and want to reconcile. She'll know a path out of this custody and divorce battle and if she STILL refuses to take it, you pretty much have your answer about her integrity, or lack thereof.

The path to intimacy is THROUGH conflict. She's not going to snap out of this wayward state if you simply 'nicely' divorce her avoiding as much conflict as possible along the way. Divorce is ADVERSARIAL. Time to put your legal game face on.


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Sorry to hear the news, D. It is a piece of paper, it doesn't have to change your course here. divorce can be stopped as easily as it can be started. So please don't let this bring you down

I know how important it is to want to tell theWAS your feelings. I remember always worrying here that he didn't know I wanted to work things out because everything was so focused on going dark, no R talks that I just felt we never got to talk. We had a similar conversation at my house one night. I did a lot of what you did (I did cry a little) but validated, both said we would do things differently but I didn't say to hold off divorce. Things can change so quickly around here but what is important is that you are working on yourself and you are a better person because of that. Someone (whether it be your W or not) will be lucky to have someone that is self aware and cognizant of their actions.

I do believe most WAS of the LBS that does the work and becomes the better person do regret their choice whether they will ever admit it or not. And the ones that don't... Well the LBS is better off!

Pull back, don't ignore but distance yourself. It doesn't mean you have to ignore every call and text but respond like you would to a neighbor. You are busy out being the guy/dad everyone wants to know. When my H started texting me pictures and things about the kids I would respond and then when he continued the conversation I stopped. This way he knew I acknowledged it and I appreciated him sending things kids related but beyond that no response. I think it's important to not come off rude. It's such a hard balance to find -- being dark and detaching but still coming off friendly without pursuing. I promise you as you detach and drop the rope it will come naturally.

Oh and to echo GB. Divorce is not the time to be friendly. Remember the outcome will effect you and the kids forever. I was given wise advice because I didn't want to be the b!tch H labeled me as. So I kindly referred H to my lawyer.

Oh I'm not sure about that my L is handling anything divorce related. Or this was per my L legal advice, etc. The L gets paid to be the 'bad guy' so to say. Let them handle that part.

Last edited by T0324; 06/13/15 03:58 PM.

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BD 2/14 Piecing 8/14
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Thanks for the support, gang! I'm handling the revelation well. It probably helped that I had a previously scheduled play date with my best friend and his son immediately after STBX left. However, I know to expect the ups as well as the downs. In all of this chit, I did hear STBX take on a bit more ownership of her actions. So that's a consolation prize, I guess.

I know enough from the boards that this isn't the end. I also know that the sooner I come to grips with reality, the better off I will be.

The good news is I have some fun plans with friends at the zoo. They are putting on an event with beer and a Beatles tribute band. Then, I will be rooting for my boys in the college World Series tonight.


Me:35 W:30
D:4 S:1
Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA
In House Separation: 01/14/15
W moves out: 04/05/15
I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15
W serves D papers: 06/19/15
Mediation: 09/16/15
D final: 12/01/15
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