the knowledge of knowing this is seriously starting to get to me. I almost would rather get it so at least the fear is gone and i can deal with what the next step will be... I see now i was 'waiting for the right time' and there never will be. I am also over the initial shock so i can carry a conversation about it not and stay solid... i hope im not supposed to keep this secret forever
No, you don't have to keep it secret, but you are not digesting everything. You still have it in your head that confronting her is a fix. You seriously believe it will end your fear?! It has just begun, plus more problems, at the point of confrontation. You have to have a plan other than just telling her you know about the A. For example, what will be your next move once you tell her you know and she says, "I want a divorce!" What will you do when she demands to know how you found out?
Here's what will happen. She will lie, deny it, and continue with the A. She will admit it, lie to you about ending it, and continue the A. You just have to be prepared to go further, and as of right now, I don't think you are.
Are you ready to stand up to her and tell her that she can pack her things or you'll pack them for her? I don't think so. She controls you. You can't even wait her out four days of dirty dishes, so what makes you think you are ready for the hard stuff? She has you doing all the chores, and you try to excuse it by saying it's really no big deal. No, you aren't ready.
Before worrying about how to approach her with confrontation, you need to be prepared to let her go. You aren't. You just want to hit the magic button to stop your pain and get back to normal again.
As for the MC while she's in an A..........forget it. You hate not to go since she finally agreed? Sounds whipped to me.
The time will come to confront, so get ready. The dynamics of the relationship must change, and it starts with you. You need to emotionally and mentally detach from her and what she does, says, or thinks. Otherwise, you are sunk before you even start.
I am on your side, but there is no way you can handle what comes next, if you can't handle this much. You cannot go blindly into a confrontation and think it will help things. You may experience a very temporary feeling of relief, especially when she lies and has a 2-3 hr. R talk, and you think things are being worked out. Then you will discover she has taken the A deeper and covering her tracks better.
Thank you for getting back to me about the MC first of all, that was something i needed quick, my question though since you dont think im ready, is how do i answer her when she says, "why not? You dont want to work on us anymore"? I can see that coming already. I know i can switch that by saying "i absolutely want to work on us, but right now your actions are not showing me that you will take it seriously like im trying too" or something?
I am listening to you, believe me! Im just trying to understand also. i know you are one my side! She has stated she does not want a divorce previously, however i know those are just words and before i expose this. i just wanted to put that out there. When i went through her phone and exposed the Emotional A, she was furious, but got over it. However, obviously that solved nothing since i am still here and it is clearly worse now... i dont think i told you i have confronted her already like that. This is hurtful, but i can put on a serious face. My job helps with that actually. However, i know that is completely different.
as for the chores, i guess i need some clarity here. I was severely lacking there, i have apologized for that and obviously improved since then. One of the rules is never take back your hard earned changes, so wouldn't be purposely avoiding doing these be considered taking that back? I guess that where im confused... Its not that i cant wait her out, i guess i worded that poorly, but its i think rationally and think, why should i if this is something im trying to show i have improved myself with. Does that make sense?
the knowledge of knowing this is seriously starting to get to me. I almost would rather get it so at least the fear is gone and i can deal with what the next step will be... I see now i was 'waiting for the right time' and there never will be. I am also over the initial shock so i can carry a conversation about it not and stay solid... i hope im not supposed to keep this secret forever
No, you don't have to keep it secret, but you are not digesting everything. You still have it in your head that confronting her is a fix. You seriously believe it will end your fear?! It has just begun, plus more problems, at the point of confrontation. You have to have a plan other than just telling her you know about the A. For example, what will be your next move once you tell her you know and she says, "I want a divorce!" What will you do when she demands to know how you found out?
Here's what will happen. She will lie, deny it, and continue with the A. She will admit it, lie to you about ending it, and continue the A. You just have to be prepared to go further, and as of right now, I don't think you are.
Are you ready to stand up to her and tell her that she can pack her things or you'll pack them for her? I don't think so. She controls you. You can't even wait her out four days of dirty dishes, so what makes you think you are ready for the hard stuff? She has you doing all the chores, and you try to excuse it by saying it's really no big deal. No, you aren't ready.
Before worrying about how to approach her with confrontation, you need to be prepared to let her go. You aren't. You just want to hit the magic button to stop your pain and get back to normal again.
As for the MC while she's in an A..........forget it. You hate not to go since she finally agreed? Sounds whipped to me.
The time will come to confront, so get ready. The dynamics of the relationship must change, and it starts with you. You need to emotionally and mentally detach from her and what she does, says, or thinks. Otherwise, you are sunk before you even start.
I am on your side, but there is no way you can handle what comes next, if you can't handle this much. You cannot go blindly into a confrontation and think it will help things. You may experience a very temporary feeling of relief, especially when she lies and has a 2-3 hr. R talk, and you think things are being worked out. Then you will discover she has taken the A deeper and covering her tracks better.
as for the chores, i guess i need some clarity here. I was severely lacking there, i have apologized for that and obviously improved since then. One of the rules is never take back your hard earned changes, so wouldn't be purposely avoiding doing these be considered taking that back? I guess that where im confused... Its not that i cant wait her out, i guess i worded that poorly, but its i think rationally and think, why should i if this is something im trying to show i have improved myself with. Does that make sense?
It's about consistency in your actions. You can't say "I'm changed, I do dishes now." Then wait 4 days to see if she will do them. Then do them out of guilt? Disgust? Whatever. Doesn't matter.
I'm not saying you should do all the chores. But I am saying that you need to be consistent in what you do. Otherwise, how can she believe any of the other changes?
You have told her repeatedly you want to save the M. Do not make this your default answer to everything she asks or says to you. I only tell you this b/c I know how it turns off a WW! You need to say something else. Something that tells her you are thinking things over. She needs to wonder if you may have second thoughts. I know that seems contrary to your mindset, but the one thing she doesn't need to be reminded, is how she can betray you and yet there are no consequences and she can be assured you won't go anywhere. A WW does not need to be assured that she's still running the show......she needs to wonder about you and how you feel.
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my question though since you dont think im ready, is how do i answer her when she says, "why not? You dont want to work on us anymore"?
Yes, she probably will twist it around to make it sounds as if you don't want to work on it. That's okay, let her do it. If she asks you why not, tell her something like, "I haven't seen any indication we are ready", or "I'm not sure how I feel about it, right now". Be vague and don't give her the same old song & dance about wanting to fix things. The thing that will throw her and distract a WW's attention on her A is to think her H is no longer interested in her! You have to be vague, without lying, in most answers you give her, at this time. You can't trust her, and she will deceive you.
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as for the chores, i guess i need some clarity here. I was severely lacking there, i have apologized for that and obviously improved since then. One of the rules is never take back your hard earned changes, so wouldn't be purposely avoiding doing these be considered taking that back? I guess that where im confused... Its not that i cant wait her out, i guess i worded that poorly, but its i think rationally and think, why should i if this is something im trying to show i have improved myself with. Does that make sense?
Here's my point. If I understood you correctly, you are doing it all, is that right? You see, there are tons of guys coming here and telling their story about their fear of losing the W. The first thing they do? Start doing all the housework! That does not save a marriage! In fact, if you do not have a disabled W, that's a terrible move to make! If she holds down a full time job, then sure, share the chores, but don't do them all and think you are really making changes in yourself. I have never known of a woman, yet, who left a man b/c he didn't do enough housework.
Go back and read what I said about not being able to wait her out four days of dirty dishes. The point had nothing to do with washing dishes, it was about who is really in charge there in the home and the M. It's not you. She knows how to work you.
Please be careful about over apologizing about things. You expose her and then apologize? So, why are you considering it again? Never mind, I know why. But that's why I said what I did about the four days. It takes strength, courage, and victory over for the smaller things, before you start thinking of bigger actions. The last thing you want is to expose her and then apologize.
Being new, you may have a tendency, like some do, to pick up on part of what's being said, but miss the point. It's normal b/c of the emotional turmoil you are experiencing. You may have to read a post two or three times, or do exactly as you did with this....and just ask for clarification. I sure am not the best in the world explaining everything I'm trying to say.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
OK, so long story short, the cats out of the bag. I have been away clearing my head and trying to think what to do. W was confronted about the physical A and cheating 4 days ago. Sorry for the lack of updates since then. I did not want to do this yet per the advice here, but it was eating me alive, and she actually dropped a bomb that initiated it and i felt forced (not what i wanted) but i took what you said here and tried to apply it on a whim. One of my close friends told there Win guessing which made it back to W earlier that day, so after a non-eventful night together, she went to go upstairs like normal, pauses and goes "oh by the way, id appreciate it if you didn't talk to anyone about us and say that im cheating on you" and walked upstairs. In my head i went "WTFFFFFF", but i knew there was no way i was letting her drop a bomb like that and just walk upstairs with no explanation or anything, so i gather my thought for a couple mins and followed her upstairs where i had the confrontation...
First, let me say i never got her to admit she slept with OM, but with the evidence, the conversations/emails/her actions, as much as she tried to explain them away, it did not make senses in any other setting so i guess she will never fully admit to sleeping with OM since i gave her ample opportunity to come clean. Plus after the initial conflict because i was not going to back off, she changed her story (added) which means shes clearly withholding the whole story and ill just have to live with that, her body position and actions said it all...
It was about a 30min conversation, when i realized she was so pissed/scared or something i was no longer in a discussion (she shut down), i let her shower, and then continued the conversation for another 30mins after, and 10 mins the next morning to ensure she knew i was serious and this was it.
The conversation: I listened Sandi and i stayed calm and collected, i did not yell and i held myself together. If anything i think i showed a obviously some anger of her doing this to me, but concern/betrayal. When W described making out with OM and him reaching up and feeling her, i started to break down but i took a breath and stayed strong per your advice. Her is the gist of key points:
Starting of Convo; I stayed very calm and spoke slow the whole time which i tried very hard to not break from... Me: Did you cheat on me W: No (direct eye contact displaying fear or shock) Me: Did you cheat on me since we have been married? W: No, i didnt cheat on you Me: babe, i have seen conversations, and pictures and the recent trips you have left make know sense. W: i didnt cheat on you W: so you were snooping and went through my phone again? (mad) Me: that doesn't matter and NO. i wasn't 'snooping' as you say, i am fighting for my marriage. You wont tell me and i want to know what is wrong. Your storied and actions make no sense. There is obviously a huge issue, and based on Your actions and guarding of you phone or convo's, plus lack of kissing/touching me, i know there is an OM. Dont insult my intelligence. Me: So, has OM sent inappropriate pictures? W: No Me: So again, has OM sent you multiple pictures of himself in a towel and sexual poses barely covering himself with a white towel from OMs bathroom(i repeated) W: long pause (realizing i knew i think since i described it). Then softly looking down "yes" (showing she lied/was caught) Me: has he sent you nude of himself W: yes... me: Have you sent nudes of yourself W: yes (had to take a breath here to come down and not start crying to myself and continue, this hurt, but i knew already...) Me: Do you think that appropriate for you to do? For him to do? Why did you do that or let him, how do you think that makes me feel? W: i dont know, he is my friend and single and in a tough place. me: i dont care about him, you are married, and that is not ok and unacceptable to for you to do. You are not single and i cant believe you would do this W: Black stare Me: so know that you told me that, did you cheat on me with OM? W: no i didn't Me: what about the night last month you went to his apartment and then you texted it was the best night of you life, the most exciting thing you have ever done. OM said only two people good in bed who share a connection can connect like that, followed by you agreeing and laughing. The pictures of him with a hickey on his neck and scrapes on his back? W: blank stare again, then... we kissed. Me: really? thats it? im asking you to get it out now so i can see if i want to work past this W: we kissed, and he reach under my shirt and felt around M: So again, did you have sex with OM? W: No Me: what about the convo the next day between you and the PF and when your stomach hurt (true due to period), and she made a comment its probably from being pounded last night and your period. The you said "perhaps" and both laughed about it W: she was just joking Me: do you think im stupid? nobody jokes randomly like that unless there is prior context mentioned which i know she knew about because she wouldn't answer me when i asked. W: blank stare followed by, im done, im showering, leave now.
then the second part which was shorter: after talking about how hurt i was and what this was doing to me, and how i wont be disrespected and i am not willing to be in an open marriage. Me: do you want to work on this marriage W: i dont know Me: what do i need to do to help you recommit? i will not be a plan B, i have already stated i want to work on this M and i know we can still work on things, but i need you to let me know if your still willing because i cant do this on my own anymore. Stop running away and talk to me... W: I dont know Me: again, im asking do you want to be married to me, and are you willing to try and work on things? W: im still here Me: i dont know what that means? you have said that before, please tell me what that means... W: im still here, if i didn't want to be, i would have left Me: if you want to work on things, i need you to end it with OM. W: im not sure if i can Me: that was a choice you made and if he is your 'friend' of 15 years as you say, he will understand, if not, then he is not your friend. As your husband, i am telling you to end it now. W: Ok (kinda of mad) Me: He knew you were married and took advantage, you should have stopped it and didn't, now its up to you to end it. so Im telling you, its over now, because i know and have even seen you talking to PF that he is the biggest reason we are still having issues and you dont want to work on things. So, end it, because we are married and we need to focus on us to repair things. If you cant do that, then tell me right now because im done being in limbo, watching my wife talk to another man the way you do, and getting crushed every time you leave. I will not continue to feel like that and nobody deserves that... W: Ok, i will (most likely lying but whatever)
So anyways... thats the gist of the conversation. The next day she basically said nothing to me and was gone until later at night avoiding the house (worked late and then went 'shopping'). She then came and removed her computer and hard drives from the house so she must have figured out thats where i got all the pictures/convos from. So im in the dark if she ended it or not which im sure she most likely has not, and now just become much better at hiding it. She does not go on her phone like she did while at the house no, especially near me... so maybe this is a good thing and she did wake up? but im leery and not buying it yet. She also changed he passwords so i cant go in her email. This is basically the opposite of being transparent which i also discussed she was going to have to be if she wanted me to stay and be able to trust her again...
last night was ok, we did dinner and a movie and actually laughed a little togather, but it was basicall ymore of the same. Its all just a routine to her. Nothing intimate. SO my question, is should i trust her? im guessing no. Should i follow up the conversation somehow in a week? What is the next step? should i continue to DB and GAL? Helps, im not sure what to do right now...?
So did accept plans to go tour boat 2 weeks from now with her mother and me, and a wedding for the two of us in 2 months so im guessing that means she isn't leaving yet? But obviously that is far from saying she is turning around...? i get that, im not fooling myself here, i dont think anything have changed yet as much as i want to believe she has ended it...
Your conversation could be a script from my conversation with my W a month and a half ago. What is going to follow for the next few weeks/months is up to you now. But there is no denying one thing. This is going to hurt. Bad. You are going to have good days, but mostly bad, painful, miserable days where you need to hide away and cry.
Judging from what you say above, you've told your W that she needs to stop seeing OM. You've told her you will leave if she doesnt. But then you asked her if she wants to work on the marriage and you continue to make plans with her and her mom. That's telling her you're not going to leave. She has no incentive right now to end her A. Most likely she hasnt.
Now you need to actually follow through on your words. You need to GAL. Without her. She's fired you. Go to the gym, call some friends. Be too busy for her right now. Let her know through your ACTIONS that life will continue with her or without her. Stop talking to her other than to answer simple questions. Do not talk about the A or your M or ask her if she's ended her A. Don't ask her if she wants to work on your marriage. She doesn't right now. Why would she? You're still hanging around asking her if she wants to save it even though she's with some other guy.
I'm right there with you in the same scenario right now. But things are a little better because I moved from the stage you're in to talking to an attorney, making preparations to leave, and figuring out visitation/custody schedules. This all scared the crap out of me, and I didn't want to do any of it. But it scared my W more. And as far as I know, she's leaning toward working on our M. I haven't asked her, so I don't know.
What I do know is I had to stop having conversations like the one you had above and start working on ME, and showing her that it's better where I am than where she is.
The key is that you don't need her to work on your M right now. You need YOU to work on YOU right now.
Also important to note: i feel a MASSIVE relief getting this off my chest. i have noticed i have been able to go about GAL better and ive been more upbeat (even just this week since the confrontation). I think this confrontation although not optimal if nothing else, did do one thing which is allow me to see that im not afraid of her. She does not own me and i can stand up for myself again like i use to. I see now i am doing everything to save the M and its up to her now to try and if not, then im a great guy and its her lose. I see know while i can yell, point, shame, nothing will change her actually emotions or willingness to be intimate except her. It weird such a horrible conversation has actually made me feel better in a way...
You guys are right. I just wanted to see if Sandi or more had in site so i wrote as much as i could from the conov. I mean we all know she has lied but like Sandi said earlier, some people will just never admit it. I know she cheated, the evidence and convo's are far too detailed regardless of what she said. i still think this had to happen and is a good thing though that it did, for me i mean. I didn't accept going to the events, she told me she planned them, so there is a difference in my mind. The wedding was planned long ago and the same with the tour. What i do take away from them is time, they tell me i have time, which is important as cadet says. So i guess i should keep Dbing? Dont pursue still right? So basically dont change what i have been trying to do...?
I was in your shoes last year..hurt like hell...bad. Then, maybe Starsky? asked me, "Is this a woman worth fighting for?" He was right. She wasn't. Today, I'm almost 8 months past that day and I feel great (aside from her BS with the kids, schedule, etc) You are going to go through hell, keep going. There is fresh air on the other side...it's sunnier and smells better...trust me. Every day right now will feel like a month, suck it up, you can do it. Think like a Navy Seal, like a warrior, like Bruce Lee, whoever...you can do it. She is not worth your energy or focus. I hope this doesn't come across as cold or callous, it's not meant to. Post on here often, it helps. Go for a bike ride. Go see buddies. DO NOT sit in your house and wonder what you did wrong....because you probably didn't do anything wrong enough to deserver this. Head up.
-mvg
As of December 2023 Me: 45 XW: 43 S13 S10 ILYBINILWY: 11/14/2014 OM: 11/14/2014 D process: 12/14/2014 D final: 04/2015
The second conversation should have been left off, except for saying you won't live in an open M. You were pressing to the point of pleading her to tell you she would work on the M. She was not hearing any of what you were trying to get her to say. And you sure won't get a WW to agree to a transparency plan before she is remorseful and ready to go to work saving her M!
You gave away your source of intell, and she will make sure they are more careful now. Which means, they will carry the A deeper underground. She has no intentions of ending it. She's pi$$ed and more determined to rebel.
As I said earlier, your relief will be temporary b/c other pressures will likely take its place. I hope from this point forward you will not inform her of how much you know. It never accomplishes what the LBS thinks it will.
You need to make yourself unavailable to her. Spend as much time GAL as possible. If you do not detach now, you will see no changes in her or the MR. You have to change the dynamics, and all you have done is show your cards.
Do not discuss these matters with other people, b/c it always gets back around to the W.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
