IMO, you can't ignore her forever. I think she's been making it clear there's donething she wants to talk about. And probably not in front of the kids since she didn't say anything last night.
Doesn't mean it's "good" what she has to say. But I don't think it makes sense to avoid forever.
What was on the voicemail? Just that she wants to talk?
Well, I called STBX back. She said multiple times that she was missing me a lot. She said she does especially when she works at nights. She said something about the anger subsiding (not sure what she meant by this and who's anger). She said, "it's just hard." I mainly just listened to her talk.
I courteously cut call short due to my work. She said that she just wanted to say that she was missing me more than anything. I could tell that she was waiting for my response to this but I just wished her some rest and said my usual goodbye.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
Sounds like you did well. As you know, missing you isn't the same as being ready to work on your marriage. Good on you for not caving to spilling your feelings back.
"I know we got interrupted today and you wanted to talk some more. It's gonna be really hectic today at work and then I'm heading out with the kids to visit our friends x and y tonight so if you want to continue this conversation we could meet for dinner maybe sunday night?"
[or lunch sunday afternoon or breakfast monday morning]
I know this sounds like "chasing" but by the time sunday happens, it won't be. You ask in a nonchalant manner offering HER the best time to continue HER conversation.
Then you remain a little detached all weekend. Don't volunteer information about your plans while visiting X and Y, only that that is where you are headed and thus, unavailable to continue HER conversation.
When sunday comes. Be assertive and take control of the plans. No "where do you want to meet". I'd pick a place that has a lot of history for you as a couple. Not romantic history...just somewhere that will harken back memories (in HER) of better times. Don't make a big deal about the selection. Just an "OK, I'll pick you up at 7 for dinner". She says "where are we going?", You say "______'s, I haven't been there in awhile and I'm in the mood for _________". Taking charge of the "date", not concerning yourself much with what SHE might be in the mood for. Maybe meeting at the restaurant would be better, so you can escape/leave when you want.
It might be a bonus if the place is kind of loud and fun. Really a difficult place to have a serious conversation. YOU don't pursue the conversation. You are about having a good time.
If she corners you about why you are acting like this and avoiding really talking to her you have several options:
1. Why do you always have to be so serious? Can't we just have fun.
2. Well, honestly, these conversations are usually extremely hurtful to me. You say "I miss you" or "I still love you" but if we keep talking I know it's going to be followed up by a big "BUT..... ", or talk about the divorce you are pursuing, or how you and OM are just friends or something. It's not nice and it hurts my feelings and I don't feel you are ready to have an honest conversation about our relationship. Did I just say "big butt", OMG, that's funny" - {continuing laughing and step back from the conversation by distraction. You just dropped a bomb. Let it stew. If she wants to continue the conversation make HER pursue it. Then, just answer questions, with questions and LISTEN.
If she says "OM and I are done"....you may spill the beans on what you know, probably give up your source (but that's a relief too), ask questions like "How would you intend to assure me nothing is going on?", "How could I trust you continuing to work with OM?", "Would you trust me continuing to work at {abc company] had I had an affair with [insert ugly receptionist or some other work colleague]?".....you don't have to teach her anything, just ask questions and let her convict herself or talk herself in circles.
Then come back to "see, I don't think you are really ready to talk about this stuff yet, honestly.....SOOOOO, let's just have some fun.
Maybe include "I'd appreciate it if we could maybe BOTH agree not to file a divorce this summer, spend some time together, have some fun, maybe go on a cruise or trip together and just see if we can BOTH regain a little more trust in one another. Worst case, we give our children one last great summer together as a family". It would be important to add one big boundary to such "I will only agree to subjecting myself to this IF you can assure me TODAY that your affair with OM is OVER and that you will not be talking to him or continuing any sort of relationship or friendship with him. I have no desire to be around you if you are going to be texting, calling and/or emailing so other man".
Certainly her assurance is NOT to be trusted, but you've stated this as a boundary and made your intent clear. She'd still be working with him so sliding in at some point that she needs to change jobs must be communicated at some point but that has to be balanced against be too "pursuing" and too "needy". It also needs to be balanced against what a really detached and confident man would do when strategically pursing a girl.
Put it this way, when he quarterback of the high school football team pursues a girl that already has a boyfriend. He just goes after her. He doesn't concern himself much with the other guy and get all demanding up front that "she better stop talking to him or he won't go out with her". He swoops in with arrogance, takes control and it's the boyfriend that runs around trying to make demands on his girlfriend. You are now the quarterback that your wife is chasing. Boundaries are important and SHOULD be talked about in recovery but neither of you are there yet. That all being said, she HAS to change jobs for the sake of your marriage and family. Hopefully, in time, you can lead her to that conclusion and she'll make that choice herself. Maybe it could or should be an eventual condition to her ever moving back into your home.
Your call.
BTW...I never check my wife's phone or computer though I have absolute permission to do so at any time. We mutually share all passwords. We hold each other accountable. We both believe there is no privacy in marriage. Secrets are step one on the infidelity slide. Live your life like everybody is watching you and your phone and computer are key logged at all times and you'll save your family a lot of grief. I don't think I'm actually being key logged right now...but my wife is absolutely free to key log me secretly whenever she wants.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
She said something about the anger subsiding (not sure what she meant by this and who's anger).
This is probably meant to assure you that she's not really still mad and angry over you telling the OM's wife anymore. She has no idea that we here told you she'd be steaming mad, that it was to be expected and that she'd get over it.
She may also think that her anger is what has mad you pull back and distance yourself from her. She's trying to communicate that she's safe to talk to again because she's not mad anymore. She is pursuing you.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
GB, I'm not sold on this strategy just yet. I don't know if there is enough meat on the bone for me to fully emerge from my shell. I know you're proposing a more evolved approach though, a constant distance-pursuit dance. I think a time may come for that, but I just don't see the hurry.
I don't really feel that I've gone completely dark, nor do I intend to. STBX and I are still communicating every day, albeit within my boundary. (BTW-15 minutes after I called her back this morning, she tried to FaceTime with me even though she knew I had an appointment). She still sees and hears about me being an amazing dad. She sees that I'm healthy and happy through our physical interactions because of the kids. It appears that this current approach might be working. More importantly, it's helping me personally navigate through this battlefield. What's the harm in sticking with it for a bit more?
Who knows? She could still be messing around with OM. OR she might even have moved on to another OM. (It might be time to consult my intel.) Either of these would mean that she doesn't believe in the changes I've made or just isn't really interested in reconciling anyway. Or both.
But, I'm just thinking out loud here. I do appreciate all the nuanced suggestions because I do believe that each sitch is different and requires a little improv along the way, just like all of life does. I'm not interested in being right, I'm just interested in what's best for my kids and I in the long run.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
It would be important to add one big boundary to such "I will only agree to subjecting myself to this IF you can assure me TODAY that your affair with OM is OVER and that you will not be talking to him or continuing any sort of relationship or friendship with him. I have no desire to be around you if you are going to be texting, calling and/or emailing so other man".
. . . except that he will have just given up his source of intel, and therefore will have no means of verifying this huge dealbreaker.
I'm in agreement with probably 80-85% of what you're suggesting here GB, and your take on the whole "male-female, distance-pursuit dance" is A++. I have to strongly disagree with you on Defacto giving up his source of intel. I never like to see a betrayed spouse give up their intel source, because:
1) You then compromise that channel of information; and
2) If you don't tell them specifically what you know (instead, using a "we both know you're lying to me right now" or a "I know all about you and _____'s continued contact and about everything else for that matter, and it needs to stop if you want to be with me" or something similar) . . . then, she DOESN'T KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW, AND WHAT YOU *DON'T* KNOW, and therefore she has to assume YOU KNOW EVERYTHING.
There is incredible relational and strategic power in that.
It would be important to add one big boundary to such "I will only agree to subjecting myself to this IF you can assure me TODAY that your affair with OM is OVER and that you will not be talking to him or continuing any sort of relationship or friendship with him. I have no desire to be around you if you are going to be texting, calling and/or emailing so other man".
. . . except that he will have just given up his source of intel, and therefore will have no means of verifying this huge dealbreaker.
I'm in agreement with probably 80-85% of what you're suggesting here GB, and your take on the whole "male-female, distance-pursuit dance" is A++. I have to strongly disagree with you on Defacto giving up his source of intel. I never like to see a betrayed spouse give up their intel source, because:
1) You then compromise that channel of information; and
2) If you don't tell them specifically what you know (instead, using a "we both know you're lying to me right now" or a "I know all about you and _____'s continued contact and about everything else for that matter, and it needs to stop if you want to be with me" or something similar) . . . then, she DOESN'T KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW, AND WHAT YOU *DON'T* KNOW, and therefore she has to assume YOU KNOW EVERYTHING.
There is incredible relational and strategic power in that.
Starsky
I agree.
I'd prefer he try to keep how he knows a secret or try to make it sound like he heard/got this information elsewhere. Earlier in the thread I was suggesting he hint or imply that OM's wife supplied him this intel which would have the added shock value that he has been communicating with OM's wife and then carefully watching her reaction to such information [a fully active wayward would HAVE to tell OM this juicy tidbit of news as fast as possible]. I also suggested maybe indicating that he has a friend of a friend at the hospital or OM's office providing him information. Most likely both scenario's aren't likely, she'd know or suspect you were lying and double check that her cell phone bill was secure.
Intel for intel's sake is meaningless. It only attains value if used to develop and implement a strategy. Otherwise it's just observational and, as it continues, hurtful. I have a feeling many betrayed husband's lie about how much they really snoop versus what they post. I know I would have lied as I wore out the refresh button checking my wife's cell phone bill.
I'd prefer several lines of snooping such that you aren't reliant on just one but that's difficult for a separated Betrayed Husband like Defacto.
If the timing works out and he feels compelled to confront her with the evidence he has he'd only probably do that after she completely and flat out bold face lies for a long time before he drops the intel. He'd never have to really trust her word again after that and, if she's telling the truth, will want to voluntarily give him access to whatever he needs to restore his trust in her. Trust building becomes HER job.
You claim he'd be giving up all his sources but snooping doesn't always have to be covert. The next time she tries to assure him verbally all he has to say is "Let me see your phone" and if she hesitates, he knows all he needs to know. Waywards are transparent once you know what to look for. When they demand privacy...they are wayward. When they defend their behavior...they are still wayward. When they blame you for their choices...they are still wayward.
There are also other ways to get intel if he REALLY needs it. OM's wife, though seemingly unreliable now may yet partner up with Defacto. Defacto's wife is living with her parents but he could track her car with a GPS device if he really felt the need to verify a suspicion he had without "demanding her phone" or being confrontational.
Besides...DB says he's shouldn't be snooping so giving it up solves that.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
Gang, What would be a good DB caliber verbal response to STBX when she says that she misses me? Or she might say something like, "Don't you miss me?"
I want to validate her but I don't want to overextend myself. In the past, I've said "Thanks," "That makes sense," or "I understand," but they seem lifeless to me.
Suggestions?
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
