Wayward Wife & LRT (6)

[Defacto]

Thanks Rip! And I swear that I'm not fishing for happy birthday comments!

[Defacto]

Sandi in Black, My comments in Red.

I'm curious what you think the proper response to a wayward initiating physical contact, say a hug, should be.

Never let down your guard. Never think it may be more than what it is. (By "never", I mean as long as she is wayward). I would say to pretend she's a little old lady giving you a hug. You know how you would respond to an elderly grandma's hug. Maybe that will keep you in check.

I would suggest a more nuanced approach. If she pursues physical contact at the outset of an interaction, meeting or greeting, I'd suggest a mildly warm embrace not exceeding her intensity but certainly welcoming enough that if SHE wants to linger in it...let her. Physical contact at the end of such interactions should be just as Sandi mentioned. Brief. Leaving her wanting more and maybe (or maybe not...you are detached so you don't care) missing you more once the interaction is over. When doing the pursue-distancing dance, a detached strategic betrayed spouse will want to initially reward pursuit (by her) and then distance at the end

I am always suspicious of a WW suddenly becoming so friendly with LBH. Most newcomers want to read more into it, when actually it doesn't mean the WW is wanting to R. There are various reasons a WW does this, but rarely is it with the intent of R. When she is authentic about reconciling, it will probably be a slower, and maybe even a more humble approach.

Wayward men are sometimes or often humble whereas wayward wives almost never humbly approach recovery. They usually approach it as them doing you a favor because they still think they are the coolest hottest chick in the Junior class throwing you a bone (the "maybe I'm having second thoughts but I don't know how I could ever be attracted to you again bone"). The skepticism and suspicion IS warranted because they typically aren't ready to decide anything yet. They tepidly pursue you for recovery conversation and if you seem excited about it and/or too demanding about them going "no contact" immediately, they will then distance again with some satisfaction that you seem to remain on the hook as option 1 or option 2 depending on their mood.

In my WW thread, I talked about the subject of detaching and reattracting the WW. I mean no offense, but I have noticed in past times, people who resist DB detaching and says it doesn't work.......or say it is making matters worse, really have a tough time letting the WS go. Detaching is two-fold. It is primarily for the LBS, but it also has a certain amount of drawing power to the WAS. The LBH has to let her go, first. That has to be what she sees and believes. Yes, she may play every trick in the book to show she can still pull the emotional and sexual strings of the LBH, but it is a test. If he doesn't cave, and stays cool, calm, collected, and in charge.......he passes. She'll act pi$$ed about it, but he passes, and she will want him even more.

I agree it's very much for the betrayed spouse but I believe it's much more multi-faceted than just two prongs. You can perhaps "SELL" detachment to a betrayed husband by telling him his wife needs to "see and believe it" and suggest that her then pursuing a detaching betrayed husband as her testing him, such that he actually maintains his "act" of being detached but to actually BE detached, what she "sees and believes" is really of no consequence. She's "attracted" to it because he is distancing from her and she wants to maintain all her options while she decides (a choice she'll probably never make all on her own). He can accomplish that by having a basic understanding of the distancing-pursuing dance without having to completely disengage from her or "give up" (which is how I read "the betrayed husband has to let her go"). I always try to encourage hope because I've seen the absolute worst situations turn around on a dime and recover. IMO, detaching doesn't require giving up; but, it does require beginning the process of rebuilding one's individual life, opening the cage door and objectively abandoning the illusion that the betrayed husband can control the outcome.

Some women are immediately drawn to the H who detaches, and some have to have a good bit of time before they begin getting interested. But as long as he clings to her, waiting around for her waywardness to leave, tolerating her disrespect, trying to be her BFF, etc., I don't believe he will have much more than a limbo relationship with her.

After some time (for example, defacto is well past d-day and separated already. He doesn't have to endure anything close to daily disrespect and NDY was separated and voluntarily moved back home directly on to the battlefield). I believe there is a lot of room for a detached betrayed husband between acting standoffish and having little to nothing to do with the wayward spouse and being clingy, simply standing and enduring while trying to be her BFF. For example, a detached betrayed husband whose wayward wife's primary complaint is that he's was/is a non-emotional stoic robot could BE detached; yet, in a 180 degree manner display feelings and emotions strategically and periodically while interacting with the wayward wife. In fact, the more stoic he actually is the better his temperament likely is to actually play this game in a detached manner. This could help his situation and make this type of husband actually more attractive versus reinforcing his wayward wife's primary complaint by acting in a cold, distant, hug your grandmother, I don't care about you anymore type fashion. It also doesn't mean on other days he can play that game as well. Make no mistake, all these strategies are just varying forms of "how to manipulate my spouse back to the marriage".

Are there guarantees DBing? A lot of guys have asked this question. Did you have a guarantee she would ever go a date or marry you......before you took the plunge to ask? Do we have anything in life that is a guarantee? There are some differences of opinions in some areas in DBing, but one of the first things Michele teaches is about detaching. The problem for most people is they misunderstand the concept. That, and they are too afraid of it. No book or program can give guarantees, b/c people are going to mess up. They will do things in the wrong time frame, wait too late before finally doing what should have been done first thing, etc. (Look at how many people will not take the advice they get, then come back and want help getting out of a worse mess). And then there is the wayward, who is in rebellion, so no........nothing is guaranteed.

Detachment is guaranteed to increase your odds of success. Success, here, is measured as either a recovered mutually satisfying loving marriage (not just staying married) OR a successful healthier divorce. Detachment can't fix stupid.

GB,
There is a lot of gold here. One of my biggest takeaways from DB is how methodical it is. It is almost like a science. Both you and Sandi touched on how the LBS wants some kind of guarantee, like their MR was a lab experiment. Not going to happen. But that's why the methodical nature of DB is generally a good thing because the LBS needs order and routine in the face of uncertainty. It's a roadmap, a playbook for the unknown.

But unlike a science experiment in a lab, our MRs are not taking place in a controlled environment. And certainly, we can't rely on predictable results. No expectations! That's why I think the nuance GB speaks of is key. I think MWD addresses this too in regards to evaluating and changing LRT strategies that aren't working over a large sample size. The core strategies should always remain but maybe the minor details require evolution. What does that look like? Hell, if I know. But I think it will take a finesse and confidence that can only come from a certain level of detachment.

Thanks to Sandi and GB for sparking this internal dialogue. Just some things I will continue to consider on this personal journey.

[Cadet]

One of my biggest takeaways from DB is how methodical it is.
It is almost like a science.

Whats funny is after 6 years of studying this stuff, their is a science to it.

MWD knows it and gives it out in her advice.

Kind of like Alice down the rabbit hole,
nothing is like it seems and opposites/counter intuitive prevails.
Their is science behind that too.

I really believe in science!

[Defacto]

Cadet really believes in science.
Divorce busting is a science.
Therefore, Cadet really believes in divorce busting.

[Matt777]

Wishing you strength for tonight, buddy

[Defacto]

STBX was here right at 5pm. Fortunately, I was able to take off work early and get home by four to freshen up. When she got out of the car, she remarked how much she liked my shorts. D4 made me a purple megaladon birthday cake (yeah I know, she's amazing). The conversation was light. STBX asked me to open up my gift from the kids.

I couldn't stop smiling while reading the birthday card and presents the kids picked out and made for me. I thanked the kids for my presents and I thanked STBX for helping the kids with the gifts. She told me happy birthday and reached out for a hug. Utilizing Sandi's advice, I returned the hug but it was a type of brief hug you would give a friend.

Surprisingly, STBX announced that she would leave us to it and began to say her goodbyes. I was holding D4 and walked her over to STBX to say goodbye. D4 made a comment about STBX and I kissing. I looked at STBX and there was a moment of silence. I kind of chuckled and pulled back. STBX told D4 she would kiss me on the cheek, so I let her. Then we said our goodbyes.

That's all she wrote. I thought it went well. I was friendly, confident, and attractive. The conversations were light and mainly about the kids and their gifts.

Thanks for all the positive thoughts!

[Ripken8]

Awesome Defacto! Sounds like you had a good birthday. Way to do the neighborly hug. I do like the dressing to impress approach. For me, I'm doing it more for me now. It's surprising how much of a self esteem boost it can be to have on nice clothes and look/smell good - whether the ww notices or care at all. I'm glad it was a good day and I hope you continue to build on your own self-worth through your journey!

[Defacto]

Thanks Rip! Yeah, the new wardrobe certainly does a lot for the self confidence.

Journaling:
So far this morning, 4 missed calls and two TMs from STBX. The TMs said:
"I really wanted to talk to you."
"For days. I left you a voicemail."

Do I call back?

[Georgia Bulldogs]

yes

[Georgia Bulldogs]

There's being detached and then there's being rude (I know, not nearly as rude and hurtful as your wife's recent choices but her behavior doesn't control your behavior)

She's still your wife.

She's chasing/pursuing you which is what you want. She'll stop such if you don't dance with her.

You just need to listen to her. Ask questions. Listen some more.