Mirror Mirror on the wall....

[25yearsmlc]

Cali

I think all in all, you sound really good. 2 steps forward and maybe one back...

perhaps forgiveness is like that? My advice for now is to get yourself to Retrovaille with a "mere" expectation of completing the weekend.

Don't get all "Betting everything on this last ditch attempt...!!" on it. Way too much pressure.

Just get there, with your wife - and see what happens.

It won't hurt you to go. I think I can safely say that.

And it'd take a lot of active resistance on both your parts to get nothing out of it.

As for the guilt and the ugly things she spewed at you, I believe I can imagine the pain those words cause. Perhaps more than the actions you have imagined.

But don't think the STD is only your cross to bear. I mean, talk about a scarlet letter on her forehead. That's the "gift that keeps on giving"...an eternal reminder to HER of what she did.

That is huge. And so, while you may fear she's glossing over her misdeeds, it's probably just the opposite. I almost had an affair once, long ago. And I felt guilty as heck for almost doing that. (Truth be told, at the time, I also felt completely justified. Sad, but true).

Anyhow, if I had gone a few steps farther and ALSO gotten an STD, man, that shame might have propelled me out of the marriage just b/c I'd hate that h knew and that we could not ever get past it.---because I couldn't see asking him to!

So for your w, I think shame is not healthy. It's not the same as remorse which I believe (hope?) she has felt. But an STD on a married woman just sukks when she has to explain things to a new doctor in a new area or has a procedure, or whatever.

It WILL come up in her daily life. My point is that she is dealing with more than you may realize. I doubt she's skipping forward...but she may want to. Maybe she doesn't think YOU can forgive her, so why not keep her armor on?

I liked the wink in the church. Yet I recalled the dichotomy that Mass was for me as a kid. Sometimes I went there to feel loved & accepted, never alone.

But there were times as a kid and young woman, that Church was a place of fear and rejection for me. I could see it becoming a place of shame. Glad she talks to the priest there. I wonder if you can back off further references to those meetings so she doesn't feel judged or scrutinized?

OR maybe it's the opposite and she really wants "credit" for going. Can't have been easy. God, I used to want to lie in confession - just so I could escape. I don't recall actually ever lying but I do recall wanting to...but I digress.


Oh, and on this theme of forgiveness, let me toss an anecdote out. And keep on keeping on, b/c really you may not see it but there IS progress.

I think you will end up being on the "Marital Victory" list one of these days.

[25yearsmlc]

Oops, here's another Forgiveness Illustration.


LITTLE GIRL on FORGIVENESS —

My daughter has not seen her biological dad since she was four. She’s 11 now. When she was two he contacted me and asked if I would allow him to terminate his parental rights so he could stop paying child support and I agreed.. I wanted to spare her the heartache of a revolving door father and the sacrifice of the financial support was well worth him never being able to disappoint her again. I never lied to her about where he went or who her dad was.. I have always answered her questions in the most age appropriate way possible.

When she was four he contacted me and told me he has been diagnosed with cancer and would like to see her. I set aside a day and we met in the park. He had asked for two hours.

He stayed 20 minutes and we never heard from him again.

Over the summer we ran into somebody that knows him, and they commented on how she looks like his other children. They elaborated that he has settled down and has a family now. My stomach tied itself in knots thinking of how hurtful that must be to my daughter.. I cut the conversation short and we got in the car to leave and that’s when I saw her smiling.

She said “Mom. He figured out how to be a dad. That’s such a nice thing. I’m happy for his kids.”

And that’s the day an 11 year old taught me all I need to know about forgiveness

[uRworthy]

Hey Luke. Ah, walls...I know all about them. They are my krytonite. Here's what I learned about them. They kept stuff out...but that means they stopped things from getting in.

I can feel your frustration. I get it. You want things to be happening in a certain way that you have in your head. That just isnt how this plays out.

Here's the thing. You can only handle the stuff on your side of the street. Your reactions, your thoughts, your actions. You cant control anyone elses.

But what often happens when we change our reactions, the other person's reactions are different.

Now I am not in any way saying that you arent allowed to feel frustrated or angry. This is hard stuff. But understanding why you are acting in a certain way..goes a long way in changing things.

It gets you angry when she says certain things. Your job is to figure out why it stings. Most of the time, it has to do with our ego.

You seem to get upset when she talks about how much you used to work. You worked as much as you did. Her perception is different from yours about the whys and all. Your feelings are hurt that she never acknowledged what you did for the family.

You feel how you do. She feels as she does. No one's feelings are more important that anyone elses.

That's not to say that one day you shouldnt tell her that it upsets you when she talks like that.

But you need to really figure out why that gets you upset. Does it have to do with your dad? Your mom? Did he work a lot? Not enough?

So, think about what upsets you. Try to figure out why they do and where the hurt is coming from. That goes a long way in changing your feelings and reactions.

Luke, you are trying to move this along quicker than it can. You cant do that....(yea, sorry, your Jedi powers arent strong enough - LOL).

You dont have to make any decisions now. I believe everything plays out the way it is supposed to. We just have to let it.

While she is working through some crappy stuff, I want to acknowledge, though, that it is hurtful stuff for you, too.

I can only imagine how scared she is at the thought of having to say those words to doctors, therapists and a priest at some point.

So, my friend, dig in some more. Try to figure out where the hurt comes from..then figure out how to let it go when you can.

[CaliGuy]

Cali

I think all in all, you sound really good. 2 steps forward and maybe one back...

perhaps forgiveness is like that? My advice for now is to get yourself to Retrovaille with a "mere" expectation of completing the weekend.

Don't get all "Betting everything on this last ditch attempt...!!" on it. Way too much pressure.

Just get there, with your wife - and see what happens.

It won't hurt you to go. I think I can safely say that.

And it'd take a lot of active resistance on both your parts to get nothing out of it.

25.. Thank you ...and... Yeah this is new territory for me/her/us. BAck prior to BD she wanted to go to MC, ofcourse that would have been a complete waste of time because she was the messed up one and I was just dandy ... (I almost kept a straight face on typing that) Honestly it would have failed, she was just entering into Replay I had no idea we had issues nor was I in a place to look in the mirror and fix me, let alone work on our M.

She called me this morning, BIL1 will watch S, we are looking into boarding the dog ... I will call and get my gig covered ... appears we are going to do it. Not that I am putting all hope on this .. but I do view this as the first step towards where I would like us to be .. and with all things .. sometimes just taking that first step is as big as the walk itself.

As for the guilt and the ugly things she spewed at you, I believe I can imagine the pain those words cause. Perhaps more than the actions you have imagined.

But don't think the STD is only your cross to bear. I mean, talk about a scarlet letter on her forehead. That's the "gift that keeps on giving"...an eternal reminder to HER of what she did.

That is huge. And so, while you may fear she's glossing over her misdeeds, it's probably just the opposite. I almost had an affair once, long ago. And I felt guilty as heck for almost doing that. (Truth be told, at the time, I also felt completely justified. Sad, but true).

Anyhow, if I had gone a few steps farther and ALSO gotten an STD, man, that shame might have propelled me out of the marriage just b/c I'd hate that h knew and that we could not ever get past it.---because I couldn't see asking him to!

So for your w, I think shame is not healthy. It's not the same as remorse which I believe (hope?) she has felt. But an STD on a married woman just sukks when she has to explain things to a new doctor in a new area or has a procedure, or whatever.

It WILL come up in her daily life. My point is that she is dealing with more than you may realize. I doubt she's skipping forward...but she may want to. Maybe she doesn't think YOU can forgive her, so why not keep her armor on?

I do think there is a good deal of shame and guilt there. I have talked to her about it( this falls in with the topic below) But to compound things a bit the woman is proud and stubborn, mix that with guilt and shame ... its your basic oldschool tormented and conflicted Catholic. I also think some of that fear is here, the constant reminder of the A, paired with the old me, never really being able to let this be in the past as like you have said .. its always going to be there. I do see that ... sometimes I do not always consider that in the equation, its good to keep in mind .... I know if things were flipped, I would know this would never be put to rest and I would never live it down.

I liked the wink in the church. Yet I recalled the dichotomy that Mass was for me as a kid. Sometimes I went there to feel loved & accepted, never alone.

But there were times as a kid and young woman, that Church was a place of fear and rejection for me. I could see it becoming a place of shame. Glad she talks to the priest there. I wonder if you can back off further references to those meetings so she doesn't feel judged or scrutinized?

OR maybe it's the opposite and she really wants "credit" for going. Can't have been easy. God, I used to want to lie in confession - just so I could escape. I don't recall actually ever lying but I do recall wanting to...but I digress.

This is why she is talking to Father D. As I eluded to ... a month or so back we were in mass and the Homily was powerful ... was aimed like it was a direct blast at her, she was literally squirming in her seat. We were to go off and do our own thing after mass and I had asked her if she was 'ok' and she started spewing a bit .. but after she shared that she felt guilt, I had shared with her a lesson I learned during my RCIA course on how I was told God does not want one to feel guilt .. thats the other guy, and how he keeps a hold on you .... God wants to forgive and draw you closer, guilt is used to keep you from him. I will never forget, tears in her eyes, she told me she has been a Catholic her whole life and no one has ever said that to her, in fact she felt Guilt was used to keep her on the straight and narrow. It was then she wanted to talk to a priest, she knew I was familiar with all 3 there and I suggested the one I felt would help her the most (He is a younger good man, very kind and a bit less 'old school' .... turns out she really hit it off with him and they meet every Monday for the past few weeks.

So ^^^^ no judging from me at all, nor do I ever ask what they talk about ...I simply just acknowledge she went when she tells me and might offer a superficial "how did it go?" without ever wanting the full disclosure, I even told her that its between her and Father D. I consider this IC for her as she tries to put the pieces back in her life. I do think she is following my lead as going through all this I really found my faith and she has seen the changes it caused, along with help here I really am a different person ... she has no idea about this place so I would guess she feels all the good changes were from the church.

Oh, and on this theme of forgiveness, let me toss an anecdote out. And keep on keeping on, b/c really you may not see it but there IS progress.

I think you will end up being on the "Marital Victory" list one of these days.

I enjoyed that Forgiveness post ... but man .. that's a level I would hope to be at. Toss the scorecard out, get all that out of the car and move forward ... but slowly .. to lie and just say "I forgive her" just like that, its not honest I know I need to and I am working on it. I want to I really do but like everytihng its a process and I am learning HOW to do it. Im my life I have been a pretty forgiving person, I have not held many grudges toward anyone in my life. But I have caught myself of late treating her differently ... not badly, not cold, but she is not getting all access to Cali 2.0 and thats a shame because he has turned out into a pretty good dude ... with a TON of help

As far as the Marital Victory list, I really hope so. I think one of the things that put this in perspective for me was realizing MLC and all this was not going to be done in 3 weeks. The other ... W and I have shared 24 years with each other so far, we have the most amazing S8, the timeline of men in my family they make it to their early 60's ... mind you all hard core drinkers and smokers which I am not .. so lets say I get at the least another 30 years on this planet .. and those are with W all things going our way. Thats 54+ years together ... what is 2 years in the big picture ... nothing ... a blip ... but looking at this .. that blip was where the real growth and real priorities were born from.

[CaliGuy]

Hey Luke. Ah, walls...I know all about them. They are my krytonite. Here's what I learned about them. They kept stuff out...but that means they stopped things from getting in.

I can feel your frustration. I get it. You want things to be happening in a certain way that you have in your head. That just isnt how this plays out.

Here's the thing. You can only handle the stuff on your side of the street. Your reactions, your thoughts, your actions. You cant control anyone elses.

But what often happens when we change our reactions, the other person's reactions are different.

Now I am not in any way saying that you arent allowed to feel frustrated or angry. This is hard stuff. But understanding why you are acting in a certain way..goes a long way in changing things.

It gets you angry when she says certain things. Your job is to figure out why it stings. Most of the time, it has to do with our ego.

Thats what I realized ... the Walls do not allow Cali 2.0 to breathe and be himself ... if anything it reverts back a bit to 1.0 and as I have said here... worked to hard and suffered to much to go back there.

Read a quote somewhere last week that said something to the effect "Change is impossible to prevent when there is enough suffering present" and it really made me think of my transformations over the past couple years.

You seem to get upset when she talks about how much you used to work. You worked as much as you did. Her perception is different from yours about the whys and all. Your feelings are hurt that she never acknowledged what you did for the family.

You feel how you do. She feels as she does. No one's feelings are more important that anyone elses.

That's not to say that one day you shouldnt tell her that it upsets you when she talks like that.

But you need to really figure out why that gets you upset. Does it have to do with your dad? Your mom? Did he work a lot? Not enough?

So, think about what upsets you. Try to figure out why they do and where the hurt is coming from. That goes a long way in changing your feelings and reactions.

You might have hit it uR, My father worked for the Railroad, in the early days (Before I left for the service) he did not have enough seniority and would be out of state for a month .. home a weekend then gone again. When he would be home, drinking it up along with mom and I was the oldest and raised my brothers ... AJ touched on this early on in my threads ... huge eye openers for me. I respected that Dad worked so much (in my eyes) ... truth is he worked the regular hours but I think I seen it as he worked the whole time he was gone, so in my head ... I repeated that .. or tried to to prove I was as hard a worker as my father.

Luke, you are trying to move this along quicker than it can. You cant do that....(yea, sorry, your Jedi powers arent strong enough - LOL).

You dont have to make any decisions now. I believe everything plays out the way it is supposed to. We just have to let it.

While she is working through some crappy stuff, I want to acknowledge, though, that it is hurtful stuff for you, too.

I can only imagine how scared she is at the thought of having to say those words to doctors, therapists and a priest at some point.

So, my friend, dig in some more. Try to figure out where the hurt comes from..then figure out how to let it go when you can.

You are kidding right? My Jedi powers are so strong that I know you had coffee this morning in a blueish mug.

I have been really reflecting on ME the past few days ... and I realized I set the tone, W is really not sure ... I can not blame her. I think she knows what she wants, but is at that point where the fog has thinned out a bit and she is faced with the damage caused. There does seem to be an effort by her to fix some things .... that whole believe none of what the say and 50% of what they do ... well what she is doing is making me believe this is moving in the right direction, slow ... yes ... but its better than a speed boat pace the other way.

[CaliGuy]

So just a bit ....

As I posted .. W called (I missed it and called her back) Things look to be set up for the Ratatouille weekend ... or however you spell it. I need to get my gig covered.

She told me her PT (physical Therapist) had made the pain worse today, I validated a bit .. not over the top but just a little. The old me was tired of hearing her always complain about her health ... this drove her away from me emotionally .. so lesson learned there. I asked if there was anything she could get that would ease the pain she has been going through ... she sent me pics of a few things asked if I could order them online as she could'nt at work ..... all ordered on my Amazon Prime account and on its way ... Acts of Service.

My PMA is better the past couple days ... rode the Harley in today ... joked at work on how I almost just kept riding this morning.

Work is slow ... been cleaning the office and starting some more improvement projects for the guys in back that will in the long term make us a bit more efficient and save $$.

I have S again tonight as W made dinner plans with a friend ... its nice not to cringe thinking OM, I am past that hurdle and it feels good. S and I are going to the park after School, toss the ball around ... Wednesday is my last RCIA class, Thursday S's playoff games begin ... GAL is good .. PMA is good .. even mixed in the 180's that I have stuck to ... DBing like a poster boy I am telling ya.

[25yearsmlc]

Good stuff.

I met an older woman on my walk in the neighborhood, during the height of my "ordeal."

She said she'd been married for 56 years (I know, she was doing the same WALK as I was. No wonder she was in great shape).

Then she said "although I don't count 3 of those years b/c h was a real jerk then" and it happened to be his age 47-50, almost exactly my h's.

Yes I think it'll be a blip in 30+ years, but at the time it sure was a Mountain to climb.

Just think about how you'd feel if this were a mountain, though. You'd already have a much better view of the world and where you started b/c you are a lot higher on the mountain than before. No, not at the top yet.

But I think we don't have to wait til we are at the top of a mountain, to look around & see how far we've come.


Also, you mention how you just have to forgive your wife. Yes that's true.

No long term Happy marriage exists, without a lot of forgiveness on both ends.

But it is a process. A series of choices we make, sometimes every day.

Last Easter I dragged my daughters to Mass (as a present to me, I think, they went). One of them is gay and has felt shamed by traditional Christian churches.

Well, imagine the surprise when we all saw a gay couple, (men) holding hands in the front row.

And the priest said some remarkable things about our faith, and the traditional Easter focus on resurrection was there too.

But he closed with this:

"IF you only take one thing away from today's Mass, let it be this:

Know that you are dearly loved, and never alone."

[CaliGuy]

Yesterday W TM that her PT made things worse, little later she told me she was going home. Seems over the past few years she has dealt with a variety of health issues, was one of the reasons she gave me during BD was that I 'stressed' her out, and she had to leave me to be healthy. OM is a physical Trainer .. I have no doubt that health and 'how do I get better' was the platform to create the relationship.

As a 'fixer' I would become frustrated, being forced to watch my wife suffer and not be able to really do anything about it. She would see this frustration and think I was upset with her for being ill ... and this over the years tore down some of that connection we shared. Part of me wonders how much of this is from her mother .. she too .. always seems to be on her death bed .. or healthy, angry and bitter, not towards me .. just the close family members.

So she calls me as she is driving, she is really not feeling well, I offered to pick her up, she wanted me on the phone till she got home ... so we talked a bit. She arrived home and shared she was really ill, did not want to be alone. I left work early and went over. I let myself in ... she was on the bed ... ugh that bed. Its the visual images, they jump at me like demons once I see that bed .. she noticed and said something .. I shook it off .. put on a smile and just sat with her. We talked, she told me how frustrated she was about always being ill. I opened up and told her I have learned I can not 'fix' her, never could .. and that would frustrate me to no end. I shared that I have learned all I can do, and what I needed to do al those years was just be by her side, help her when I can, but more importantly just let her know I am there. I then just STFU and sat there quietly .. she would share here and there, I would not say much .. just a soft smile, she would share more.

I ran out to get S, came back .. looked in on her, tld her to rest. Cooked S and W some dinner, did all her dishes that were piled up, got S in the shower .. things I do normally at my place but she was there to witness it. I think it was a good way to showcase how much I have changed. She ate a bit ... I kept her water going ... then she called out ... yup vomit time .. I even held her hair ... and managed not to puke on her back ... bonus I thought.

She apologized profusely .. I told her to stop, she was sick and nothing she could do about it. I have not seen her hurl like that and for a split second I though .. ugh .. she better not be pregnant ... had to erase that one from my head as it was going to lead me down a dark path.

I was all set to leave, W asked me if I would stay... she told me she was scared to be alone. So I stayed the night, she started opening up a bit here and there but stopped .. told me she is scared to get close, I nodded and validated.. did not push. I fell asleep on the living room floor, she woke me and I jumped in S's bed with him, woke early had S dressed and brushed, she was awake feeling much better, thanked me and I went on my way.

Overall I think I did well .. no expectations, I did it because I still care about her, was the right thing to do. Was able to show how I have changed in some big areas, felt good to be able to show the work I have done without the "Hey look what I am doing" .. she did not say anything but I know she noticed.

[25yearsmlc]

Dear CaliGuy,

That's a lot to have on your plate (and hers). You did very well.

Can you remind me of what her medical ailment(s) is, and the general expectations of its' progression? (Re the STD, we're talking the H- one right?)

Yesterday W TM that her PT made things worse, little later she told me she was going home. Seems over the past few years she has dealt with a variety of health issues, was one of the reasons she gave me during BD was that I 'stressed' her out, and she had to leave me to be healthy. OM is a physical Trainer .. I have no doubt that health and 'how do I get better' was the platform to create the relationship.

This ^^ seems likely. It's a safe seeming relationship in which more is disclosed than is typical in ordinary male/female relationships. And disclosure builds intimacy...and so on.

(Btw, that statement "disclosure builds intimacy" is very true. Might be something to keep in mind, going forward.)

As a 'fixer' I would become frustrated, being forced to watch my wife suffer and not be able to really do anything about it. She would see this frustration and think I was upset with her for being ill ... and this over the years tore down some of that connection we shared.


Absolutely^^ reasonable to assume, but to be clear, have you TOLD her this^^ or were you just thinking it?

I hope that someday soon, you both communicate more clearly so that no more mind reading happens.

Part of me wonders how much of this is from her mother .. she too .. always seems to be on her death bed .. or healthy, angry and bitter, not towards me .. just the close family members.

How much what is from her mom? The Illness, or the emotional reaction to it?

Hey We all learn from our parents behavior. Whether it's bigotry or cooking methods, they all imprint on us. Bad habits or negative beliefs take energy to overcome.

BTW, I highly recommend you look up "Essential Experience", which is a personal growth workshop in Philadelphia. A lot of folks call it "EE" for short. Many DBers have gone as well, & each one said it's "Life changing", "Profound", etc. They have a website.

Though couples can go together if they choose, it's designed for individuals.

Which is great for LBS's, as there's No "waiting to see IF the WAS wants" to do some marital work.

You can go and do your work & change YOUR life. ANYHOW --


So she calls me as she is driving, she is really not feeling well, I offered to pick her up, she wanted me on the phone till she got home ... so we talked a bit. She arrived home and shared she was really ill, did not want to be alone.


Don't tell my feminist friends I said this, but most of us want to be able to look to our h's as protectors. At least when we feel vulnerable (like w/childbirth, when we are ill and or frightened). It's probably biological at some level.

But if I were a man & knew what I know as a woman, I'd rise to the occasion when it comes to my w wanting to feel safe around me.

You Protecting her, puts you in a position of strength, honor, respect and often, love. It can also be a turn on. It's certainly not in the "Friend" area nearly as much as it is in the "protector/mate/lover" area.

Cultivate this^^ as best you can.


I left work early and went over. I let myself in ... she was on the bed ... ugh that bed. Its the visual images, they jump at me like demons once I see that bed .. she noticed and said something .. I shook it off ..

Get that Stop Sign image in your mind if need be. That visual just has to go no matter what your m does. Who needs that?

(Get the book "After the Affair", which I've heard is helpful in these situations).

Could you buy a new bed? Seriously!

Plus, before you get into her head too much, I'd remind you that she has her own triggers of memory. I don't believe for a minute that she's thinking "Gee I sure miss OM now".

More like "Oh damn. The brutal shame, the gut wrenching humiliation, the life long STD --those memories are flooding back...God, I hate this bed."


put on a smile and just sat with her. We talked, she told me how frustrated she was about always being ill. I opened up and told her I have learned I can not 'fix' her, never could .. and that would frustrate me to no end.

How are you different now, with the frustration piece? And going forward?


I shared that I have learned all I can do, and what I needed to do al those years was just be by her side, help her when I can, but more importantly just let her know I am there. I then just STFU and sat there quietly .. she would share here and there, I would not say much .. just a soft smile, she would share more.

Sounds GOOD. Silence does not have to be an enemy. She may need reassurance of her desirability too. A lot of women feel unattractive when ill.

Like "he's never going to see me as sexy again".

BTW, the more I read about her being sick, the more I can understand your comment about the platform for OM being her wellness, etc.

Perhaps It ties into her feelings of being desirable.


I ran out to get S, came back .. looked in on her, tld her to rest. Cooked S and W some dinner, did all her dishes that were piled up, got S in the shower .. things I do normally at my place but she was there to witness it. I think it was a good way to showcase how much I have changed.

YES! And it arose naturally as a byproduct of you being a good man, h and dad.



She ate a bit ... I kept her water going ... then she called out ... yup vomit time .. I even held her hair ... and managed not to puke on her back ... bonus I thought.


I just realized how UN helpful it would be if I were that sick, and my h couldn't help me b/c HE was getting sick from just seeing me vomit.

So ya done good!


She apologized profusely .. I told her to stop, she was sick and nothing she could do about it. I have not seen her hurl like that and for a split second I though .. ugh .. she better not be pregnant ... had to erase that one from my head as it was going to lead me down a dark path.

Wow you do go down dark paths at odd times. She's hurling and you thought of her OM....okay...

Um, work on that stop sign image or go to EE sooner...yikes.


I was all set to leave, W asked me if I would stay... she told me she was scared to be alone.

Interesting theme here^^. Way to step up to the plate (and good for your son to see. Really important teaching point there, & by way of example, not words).


So I stayed the night, she started opening up a bit here and there but stopped .. told me she is scared to get close, I nodded and validated.. did not push.

Do you think she means that she fears opening up and being vulnerable to you, only to have you still Not forgive her - reject her? Or mistreat her?

Can you recap the earlier marital dynamics that YOU feel contributed to the problems?

I fell asleep on the living room floor, she woke me and I jumped in S's bed with him, woke early had S dressed and brushed, she was awake feeling much better, thanked me and I went on my way.

Overall I think I did well .. no expectations, I did it because I still care about her, was the right thing to do.

^^ Huge. Well done. NO expectations means, also, no manipulation, no scheme or tactics, etc. Just compassion for the mother of your child and mate.


Was able to show how I have changed in some big areas, felt good to be able to show the work I have done without the "Hey look what I am doing" .. she did not say anything but I know she noticed.

Well done. And she noticed but didn't say anything - for so many possible reasons.

1) not sure if it is real and or

2) that it will last; and or

3) that you will attach an expectation of her IF she comments; and or

4) she has been taught NOT to hope for change from you b/c she has been disappointed too often...so she has a wall around her to stay "safe".

She may even feel embarrassed that she needed you so much for her protection, and might pull back a bit.

Don't freak. Her fears of mortality and dependence, sound justified.

For now, Be her rock.

What's up with Retrovaille? (I can't recall the details right now). It's coming, right?

Meanwhile, your course of action seems to be working for the most part.

Keep doing what works!

[CaliGuy]

Dear CaliGuy,

That's a lot to have on your plate (and hers). You did very well.

Can you remind me of what her medical ailment(s) is, and the general expectations of its' progression? (Re the STD, we're talking the H- one right?)

25 ... We miscarried back in '06, had S .. shortly after she was being treated for Endometriosis, a few years of frustration and "nothing works/everything is painful" she opted to jump off all meds... At thit point .. around 09 she lost her job of 13 years, was off all the meds and sunk inot a depression. At the time I was not sure if it was the job, lack of meds, the Endometriosis ... or a combination of all 3, all I knew was my W seemed 'gone' ... hurting and suffering. Turns out it was not Endometriosis it was Interstitial cystitis, I can not tell you the difference as looking at it seems similar but it did explain why nothing was working for her.
So off Western medicine and trying to heal Holistically, When I first arrived here I thought she was BiPolar and in the manic phase ... easy comparison and mistake ... and I am not Dr Cali. She does seem to be in less overall pain now, but when she 'cheats' on the diet .... this last bought she told me was triggered my eating yogurt or black beans she is not certain. It will last a couple days and she will take supplements to get it out of her system.

The STD ... is the bad one .. HSV-2. This was confirmed Mar14, for whatever reason OM had talked his way around it (Lied according to W) ... health is and has always been W's one thing she was concerned about so I was shocked the A lasted past that ... almost a year after, proves how thick that fog can get I suppose. I was tested and clear, we have not had sex since about Mar2011 ... due to the medical issues I discussed ... another thing I have been working on coming to terms with.

Absolutely^^ reasonable to assume, but to be clear, have you TOLD her this^^ or were you just thinking it?


I hope that someday soon, you both communicate more clearly so that no more mind reading happens.

I have told her this a few times ... I do think like most things she did not believe me, thought it was a way of 'tricking' her back .... but lately I have had oppurtunities to show I do honestly care, before I addmittedly felt I was handed a raw deal, and was all about why my needs were not being met, angry she was ill all the time, selfish and I am not proud of it .. but I was like that.

How much what is from her mom? The Illness, or the emotional reaction to it?

Hey We all learn from our parents behavior. Whether it's bigotry or cooking methods, they all imprint on us. Bad habits or negative beliefs take energy to overcome.

That was what fed my frustration, not sure how much was learned, how much inherited health wise. I do think a HUGE chunk is from her, in fact her mother could be suffering from the same thing, just never dealt with it ... I am not sure here.

BTW, I highly recommend you look up "Essential Experience", which is a personal growth workshop in Philadelphia. A lot of folks call it "EE" for short. Many DBers have gone as well, & each one said it's "Life changing", "Profound", etc. They have a website.

Though couples can go together if they choose, it's designed for individuals.

Which is great for LBS's, as there's No "waiting to see IF the WAS wants" to do some marital work.

You can go and do your work & change YOUR life. ANYHOW --
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I came across that last week I think .. the fact its on the east coast proves to be an obstacle ... but I have thought about it.

Don't tell my feminist friends I said this, but most of us want to be able to look to our h's as protectors. At least when we feel vulnerable (like w/childbirth, when we are ill and or frightened). It's probably biological at some level.

But if I were a man & knew what I know as a woman, I'd rise to the occasion when it comes to my w wanting to feel safe around me.

You Protecting her, puts you in a position of strength, honor, respect and often, love. It can also be a turn on. It's certainly not in the "Friend" area nearly as much as it is in the "protector/mate/lover" area.

Cultivate this^^ as best you can.
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I have been, and I do think she still views me that way ... and in certain areas like last December I have also refused... like DB said .. sometimes try something different ... she was sick wanting me to help, go get some things, be there, I really wanted to but at that time, about a week before I was told some MLC type things, told to accept OM and her were going to be happy and 'move on'.. so I refused, told her to call OM, and that he should be that guy. This looking back was a big game changer .... I didn't do it out of anger, just told her that she was determined to move on with her life, I was going to do the same and it did not involve me being her exhusband/errand boy nor doing errand boy type things. But over the course of this ./.. I have always been there, maybe to much at times .. I do not know.
Yesterday it was different, like you said .. definitely not 'friend zone' type feel, more husband taking care of his wife vibe .... she even refereed to me as 'her husband' when she was telling me about a question she had to answer for him.

Get that Stop Sign image in your mind if need be. That visual just has to go no matter what your m does. Who needs that?

(Get the book "After the Affair", which I've heard is helpful in these situations).

Could you buy a new bed? Seriously!

I have ... and for a long time I was good .. only once she started pulling the reconnection stuff have I really had isses with the past ... Just read Raines last post looks like its an issue for her too ... for me its not the emotional thing they had .. I get it was most likely not close to what we had/have ... its the physical images and the fact we had not shared that for 3 years .. and 3 mos after BD she is 'cured' and having sex .... again .. anger/pain I have to get through.

The bed ... yeah .. its in her place, I told her a couple times I will not sleep there, its a trigger, she has accepted that but claims she does not have the $$ for a new one. We concieved S on that bed, it was 'our' bed since we were M ... so yeah ... the whole set as far as I am concerned can go on Craigslist .. I have a nice new set at my place if we ever do R.

Plus, before you get into her head too much, I'd remind you that she has her own triggers of memory. I don't believe for a minute that she's thinking "Gee I sure miss OM now".

More like "Oh damn. The brutal shame, the gut wrenching humiliation, the life long STD --those memories are flooding back...God, I hate this bed."

How are you different now, with the frustration piece? And going forward?

I am pretty calm, I usually was ... just sucked when it came to her pushing buttons trying to get a fight. She has tested me alot, for the most part I have been calm, partly due to being detached .. partly due to seeing she was upset over x and had nothing to do with me, but she would try to get me to fight with her so she could let it all out ... I do not play that game as often anymore.

Sounds GOOD. Silence does not have to be an enemy. She may need reassurance of her desirability too. A lot of women feel unattractive when ill.

Like "he's never going to see me as sexy again".

BTW, the more I read about her being sick, the more I can understand your comment about the platform for OM being her wellness, etc.

Perhaps It ties into her feelings of being desirable.

This is a tough one for me ... W is hot ... she really is. But she doesn't see herself like that, her parents never built her up .. was the Shame Game ... she is starting to deal with that now, at the moment I am in a tough spot .. I can say she looks pretty ... the gives me the 'thanks' .. she never takes compliments well ... but I am not at a point where I can 'hit' on her and make her feel desirable because she is 'not ready' for that yet ... so more limbo.

I just realized how UN helpful it would be if I were that sick, and my h couldn't help me b/c HE was getting sick from just seeing me vomit.

So ya done good!



Wow you do go down dark paths at odd times. She's hurling and you thought of her OM....okay...

Um, work on that stop sign image or go to EE sooner...yikes.

I know right? ... thing is I was holding her hair and thought .. wow she has not been sick like this since we had .. .. OMG ... is she Pregnant with OM's kid???? had a rush go through me then logic stepped in started with the dates, minus the 3 ... ugh. Then I realized she PMS'd me last month so I relaxed .. all while she was praying to the Porcelain Gods.

Do you think she means that she fears opening up and being vulnerable to you, only to have you still Not forgive her - reject her? Or mistreat her?

Can you recap the earlier marital dynamics that YOU feel contributed to the problems?

I think its being vulnerable, codependant, and may be a bit of the forgiveness as she seems to be waking up I do not think she can believe she actually went and had an A and wound up with the STD ... so unlike her.

Early Dynamics ... My working and not being there, which brought on emotional distance. I was a bit of a 'nice guy' /// conflict avoid .. long term she lost respect for me I think ... and I lost some for her with all the criticisms. Lack of sex/physical closeness ... for me this is a big one .. its my LL. I tried to accept it was the medical thing, turns out it wasnt .... thats a hurdle we will have to address. Above all ... its communication .. .we both admit we are not good here ... hence the retrouvaille

Well done. And she noticed but didn't say anything - for so many possible reasons.

1) not sure if it is real and or

2) that it will last; and or

3) that you will attach an expectation of her IF she comments; and or

4) she has been taught NOT to hope for change from you b/c she has been disappointed too often...so she has a wall around her to stay "safe".

She may even feel embarrassed that she needed you so much for her protection, and might pull back a bit.

Don't freak. Her fears of mortality and dependence, sound justified.

For now, Be her rock.

What's up with Retrovaille? (I can't recall the details right now). It's coming, right?

Meanwhile, your course of action seems to be working for the most part.

Keep doing what works!
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I have registered ... weekend is Jun 19... just days after out 15th Anniversary, things seem to happen at the strangest times in all this. I just have to send in the $$ but the pre-registration was done today by me.