Luke, you know we push you because we care and because we see what you are made of.
I just want to add this. My xh used to work a lot. We lost two babies. My son had health issues. Other life stuff transpired.
I thought he wasnt there for me. I became angry. He worked more. I suffered a depression. The crisis hit.
He thought he was doing the right thing for his family. I thought I was holding the family together because he wasnt around for us. Whose perception was right?
What matters is that I know now that he did the best he could at the time. Had he known better, he would have done better and the same goes for me.
I have let go of the anger. For me. I have no idea if he has. I hope he has. The point is this..you did what you thought was right. You have to own that.
What she feels or thinks is her perogative. Her perception.
So, we want to see you get to a place where when she says this, you dont react the way you do...because that doesnt serve you well, yea?
A wise man once said, .."rip those buttons out by the cables and remove them. One at a time." That was a different context, but seems appropriate here.
Put that bitterness to rest.
Did you do what you thought was right by her and by your family? It seems like it. Is it something you feel you should not be "blamed" for? Sure. And I agree, but it's something to work through.
You first. She'll follow if she's able. (see the pattern?)
AJ ... thanks for always giving me posts that I end up reading about 5-6 times before replying, you really give a person something to chew on and reflect. I read this a few times on my phone over the weekend.
Yeah I do feel I did what was right, sure I would have rather had a job that did not require me working 2, over the weekend I STFU a bit and she let a ferw things out during yet another spew session (I will update about this later). Anyways things are making more sense ... her family, traditional Hispanic .. Catholic, father was the breadwinner mother stay at home mom with 5 kids. So that's her perspective on 'normal' however she seems to be struggling with wanting the corporate career she has always strived for (Refusing to end up like her mom) against wanting to work less (all the sudden) and fit more into that part time role.
I do see that I have to be the lead/example .... sometimes its hard to just stand there and take the shots ... but I see she seems to be looking at me for guidance even if she is not saying it.
Originally Posted By: AJM
Was there more to the reason you worked like that? The miscarriages, the son being born, her rejecting you for 'medical' reasons?
Seems to me that there might be some anger there that needs to be dealt with. I know I would have been angry at giving my best in the way I thought was right, and then my W cheating, having an affair etc. As if none of that mattered. As if my acts of service were meaningless.
What seems to be missing is the understanding and reconciliation of those feelings with how she feels/felt about it. It's an issue that comes up over and over again. One that you are sensitive to, and one that she seems to know you are sensitive to.
Looking back, I think it was more about me trying to 'fix' ... she wanted a nice house, nice cars, .... I fell into the DJ thing and it paid well enough, plus my regular job was a 4-10 hour shift type thing, looking back it was a mistake, with everything going on, she felt she was stuck with our S and we never could do things on the weekends because I was always working, doing things around the house or trying to sleep .. I totally get her POV, and with the gig being what it was its easy to think its all about fun, and she felt stuck at home.
As far as the anger thing, yeah its there ... I felt I sacrificed alot for the better good of the family, and like you said my reward was built up resentment, a MLC crisis (That had nothing to do with me nor me working) and my W having an A. I am still struggling with the A admittedly ... and I accept its going to take a long time for me to come to terms with it.
Originally Posted By: AJM
Her MLC and craziness etc? That's what brings it up over and over again certainly. Or maybe her attitude. Or whatever.
But what stands out to me is that you are still sensitive to it. That you have not put it to rest for you.
No matter what the two of you decide, YOU need to put it to rest. It's historical at this point. But it's a lingering land mine that YOU keep tripping on.
It's not that I don't get it, Cali. I do. I'm a man who cares about his family too. I'm articulate (have you noticed?) as well. And I have feelings. Dreams. Beliefs. And things I do whether others like them or not - knowing that they may not be popular today but still need to get done. I also know I have motivations that are not always what I proclaim, even to myself at first. I think if I was in your situation, part of me would want to do those things as a) an act of service to show I love my family and b) as a way to release my anger and the tension while my W figured herself out and we could resume our relationship. That's how I would have framed it earlier in my life.
I'm wondering if some of that applies here? Could just be me of course.
But I've learned, Cali. I've learned not to leave a rake laying down where I can later step on it and hit myself in the nose. It hurts when I do that and serves no purpose other than odd comedic or entertainment.
Let me be clear. This is separate from what she is going through, doing or saying. This is completely about you and you dealing with this so you can put it away on the historical shelf where it belongs. That's part of the old Cali. It's what the old Cali did, right, wrong, indifferent. But it's historical, not present. And it doesn't seem to be finalized yet, for YOU.
She'll come up with something else. I know in my case my ex came up with things that were nothing about me. i.e. she was forced to make things up at the time. Things she doesn't even remember now. But the things that were even close to accurate? Those stung until I took those buttons and pulled them out by the roots.
AJ
P.S. J3B was the "grizzled old wise guy" that mentioned that the first I'd heard of it. It was appropriate for the situation and it has application here.
^^ That seems to be whats going on as of late. 2 years ago it was all about my anger and leaving her alone, last year was the typical MLC IDLY, haven't for 10 years, recently its that I have not provided and was not about her needs during sex (Which we have not had sex in over 4 years... last 8 ... since S was not that satisfying for either of us TBH). Being able to take the emotions out of all ^^^^^ the common thread is these are all things that have been used to hurt me, buttons, when I finally seem to deal with one, or remove the button, she is resourceful and finds a new one ... all vary with the accuracy of truth that is behind them, some have merit don't get me wrong but it seems to me the true purpose is to inflict some pain my way. Making me recall that phrase .. hurt people hurt people.
I have nothing to add compared to Job, UR and AJM. They are so wise with this stuff. I just want to agree, don't look at these discussions/fights with your W as a step back. I think it's part of the process and "working" through the fallout. And I have a feeling there is a whole lot more to come.
I guess what I am saying is to go through these times with the thought process of figuring out and working your way to deciding what you want for YOU. NO decision is needed from you, R or no R. Just work through this stuff until you know. It seems you have some pressure on yourself to know that answer now. Take that pressure off
Sometimes I do see them as just that ... but other times its a clear reminder of the pain that is there, not being addressed ... knowing that its not the right time to address them as she is still processing through her stages ...... to me its like that Rocky scene where he has to take a vicious beating to wear out the opponent ... I know I could hop out of the ring at any time .. but everyone here knows I won't. So I am taking lumps, they are not nearly as bad as they have been.
Luke, you know we push you because we care and because we see what you are made of.
I sincerely hope part of that is bacon .... mmmm bacon.
Originally Posted By: uRworthy
I just want to add this. My xh used to work a lot. We lost two babies. My son had health issues. Other life stuff transpired.
I thought he wasnt there for me. I became angry. He worked more. I suffered a depression. The crisis hit.
He thought he was doing the right thing for his family. I thought I was holding the family together because he wasnt around for us. Whose perception was right?
What matters is that I know now that he did the best he could at the time. Had he known better, he would have done better and the same goes for me.
I have let go of the anger. For me. I have no idea if he has. I hope he has. The point is this..you did what you thought was right. You have to own that.
What she feels or thinks is her perogative. Her perception.
So, we want to see you get to a place where when she says this, you dont react the way you do...because that doesnt serve you well, yea?
Pull the button out...it frees you up.
Like I said in the reply to AJ, I do get her side .. I really do but as alot of things I have been the blame for it all .. right or wrong .. mine or not ... she has blamed me for it all .... the spat we had last weekend as she was going nuts she broke her sunglasses, picked them up and said "See what you did" ... I just looked at her like ... "WTF, that was all you and your tantrum" So now .... with many things I have become ultra-sensitive ... sensitive to blame, sensitive to the A/OM, comparing small things .... like if she falls asleep during a movie like she always has done, and I always thought it was adorable has not become in my head "I bet she never fell asleep watching a movie with OM" .... this is all on ME, and what I am projecting .. things I now need to work on, which is frustrating as these things were not issues for me before. I have new buttons to pull out, aswell as the old big ones.
Well I would like to thank you all .. I read these posts alot over the weekend ... on my phone, I do not reply because I am long winded, have fat clumsy fingers and would only end up more frustrated ... lol
Friday W showed up to get S, I had him get ready and walked them to the car ... W asked what I had planned, I told her nothing but working later, she shared she thought she would hang out for a bit but I seemed in a rush to have them leave. (I was a bit detached and honestly wanted no more spats after Thurs night and Fri morning) I told her she was welcome to come back up if she liked .... ya know one of those half-invites as we were already at her car ... well she surprised me and came back up. I made it a point to not talk/bring up the issues just wanting a peaceful time before I went to work.
Saturday I did my thing a bit, rotated the tires on my car, did some grocery shopping, cooked. W TM while I was home telling me she wanted to go to this park where they had this event concerning families who have members incarcerated. I was not sure if she wanted me to watch S, or what ... she shared she wanted me to go as she did not feel totally comfortable going alone ... understandably so I rode the bike over and we drove down. We get to the park and no one is there, this upset W a bit ... a bit more than I thought it should looking back. So after while driving back she wanted to stop off and get an external HD, we go in ... she is flustered as we were looking around .. she goes off to find a person to help, by that time I had already found it. She was rude to the guy helping, asked me to explain it to her, at one point I had to tell her that I was trying to help and to not treat me like she was. We get her HD and hop back in the car, she then wanted to go to Target, so off we go ... The store is just down the complex, she starts telling me where to turn as if I am going the wrong way... she goes Monster, I pull over get out of the car and opened her door and told her she could drive, she refused ... At this point I took a deep breathe and thought about the events.
^^^^ All that, little things that frustrated her throughout the day .. had nothing to do with me, but like so many times in the past I was the one she was lashing out on. I realized in the middle of the spew, this was not about me ... even though now she reached full monster and was making it about me, our M, looking for buttons to press ... so I just started quietly agreeing with everything, refused to engage. We get to her place and I give her her keys, I grab the dog and S, told her we were going on a walk and would be back in a bit, she could join or stay at the Condo .... S and I were gone for over an hour, she gave me a "I'm sorry" and was out of Monster and back to 'normal'
Sunday, we did church, I was pretty detached ... she had thigns to do .. I took S to see MadMAx .. then we hung out the rest of the nigh t.. not much word from W which honestly I was ok with ... thought I felt I handled the spat better, taking the shots, the things she says just to get a rise out of me ... it takes its toll and I question how much more I really want to be around her at this point. We touched on it a bit this morning, she did share she had an appt with Father D tonight. I just feel like we are both not really putting both feet into the M, I am having issues with her and her Anger/Monster flashbacks .... and I know she is having issues with me reminding her of the A/OM. I am starting to acknowledge there is so much damage and work we would have to do, I am not so sure we both are willing to put in that kind of effort, there is a good deal of uncertainty at the moment as far as I am concerned.
Yeah, Cali, you are sensitive to it. She gets angry, breaks her sunglasses because of it, and says "see what you did" or a variation, "see what you made me do"?
That's a problem. Both directions. Here's for the anger, and yours for taking it personally. It's frustration from where I sit. Her being angry and frustrated with herself.
And you're right, taking it out on you.
What you both haven't learned yet is how to deal with that frustration and anger. She doesn't have the tools but sees the problem (now). You have the tools and are seeing more of how sensitive you are to it.
What neither of you have seen yet is the trust that is required to put those problems back in proper perspective. You're too busy emotionally slugging it out and reeling from the effects. Like two punch drunk fighters, you both want it over but neither has seen how to stop it yet.
That's ok Cali. The end starts with "wanting" it to end and with recognizing the problems (with or without blame.)
Like it was mentioned before - frustration and anger are one thing. Always remember it's not about you (don't take it personally then) and remember you control you. You always have choices, so no need to stress out about any of it. Rather, you need to figure out you and what you are able to work through. Together and separately.
There's a test later
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
Forgot to add. So the MC thing which has been discussed here, I have not located a MC who seems to be a proper fit, AND have openings for our schedule. My gut/faith tells me this is not by accident. W and I touched on MC last night, we talked a bit and I had told her that I agreed we needed it, but as I had shared before was frustrated that "All the good ones seem to be taken" so the search continues. She brought up the Retrouvaille and I said that I felt it really could not hurt but we have S to figure out where he could stay ... again another M issue that we really need to figure out .... that spun into a convo about making friends, and actually working on those new relationships... being more social ...something we both want. Wait...so SHE brought it up and you didn't (discreetly) RUN to the phone to sign up? You brought up reasons NOT to go??
She is pursuing you, imo, and you are being stand offish. I get that, affair and all....
But then, you are here on this "Divorce Busting" site.
What is it, that you really want, "from this day forward"?
-- So ^^^ surprised me ... again .. her showing effort and thought into this, looking toward the future ... the talk this morning was like I had my W back for a minute. Time will tell and we will see where this all goes
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
If and when she blames you for breaking her sunglasses,
LAUGH and walk away and if you can't pull that off, just get out of the room. Sometimes the insanity does not deserve an answer b/c there's nothing to say that can reach someone when they're nutty.
I recall h saying that he felt "misled" b/c I was "Supposed to be in the Senate by now!"
(Yeah, the US Senate...the one where a 100 citizens of our nation make laws and sign treaties? Yeah THAT one. I HAD to ask him why he made such a lunatic remark and yes, I worded it better--
he told me something I said on our second date, over 3 decades ago AND which was something I'd written in my diary that I "want to do when I grow up", which I wrote when I was in 6th grade!
Seriously.
There's no response to that statement of his, other than laughing and shaking my head. I mean, talk about a selective memory, (which may be what I muttered then.)
Thing is, he now has NO recall of that conversation. I ASKED! So, I'm not sure how productive it is to explore -- but it is something you need to set up a boundary for. Do not just take it.
Anyhow, the focus of "From this day forward" is something I wanted to mention. It's in a lot of marriage vows & I thnk that's brilliant b/c I don't believe we can remain married and close, for long, without lots of forgiveness of both parties. That means not constantly looking over our shoulders at the past...
You two cannot reconcile for real, without you forgiving your wife.
What does that look like to you? How, if at all, have you worked on the subject of forgiveness?
I did not see forgiveness growing up. For me, it was a learned skill.
what do you think?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
See if this story helps illustrate the point I’m trying to make, however feebly. It's a true story.
The COLONEL
I grew up with a neighbor who was a retired Army Colonel. He had been a POW for several years, in Vietnam. He and his wife had 5 kids.
Years before they moved into our neighborhood, the Colonel had had an affair with some OW.
Oh, what's that? How did I, a young 17 y/o girl & neighbor, know that the Colonel had once had an A?
Oh, I knew b/c everyone knew b/c "Mrs Colonel" made sure we all knew, so we would not think he was such a great guy.
There were times I wanted to ask the Colonel about his POW experiences. But Mrs. Colonel- would steer the topic away. I truly believed for years, that she was protecting him from a bad memory. I'd back off sheepishly.
Then l learned that she simply didn't like him getting attention that looked anything like admiration or awe.
At the time we knew the family, the Colonel was kind, funny, handsome, strong, and really just a great guy. Yes, we DID admire him.
In contrast, Mrs. Colonel was a bitter woman, who made a snide remark for her h at every turn. From how he over cooked the grilled meat ("again!"), to undermining the value of a reference letter he wrote for my h. She just could NOT give that man a kind word to save her soul.
She never praised him in front of her kids, or us, and she would undermine any compliment others would give him. She seemed to live to make him pay. I'm not exaggerating.
She was NOT kind to him. Seemed like she never let him forget what SHE had endured & what HE had done to her.
Today, only 1 of their 5 kids is married, it's their only son. It's his 2nd or 3rd marriage & I'm not sure he's happy in it. The sisters are all single. 2 never married, and the other 2 keep on getting married, repeatedly.
I strongly believe that the choice Mrs Colonel- made was the worst of all choices.
She could have divorced him. She could have gone to counseling and therapy, & learned how to forgive...
But instead, she made the worst, most tempting choice; she stayed married AND stayed miserable.
She never let the Colonel forget his sins.
She held it over his head like the sword of Damacles.
She threw it in his face (or threatened to) every time they fought.
She did NOT Forgive him and she did not even try to. Not in a serious humbling way.
Ironically, from where we sat, from what WE saw, HE was the victim and she was the wrongdoer....she was not a woman we sympathized with.
She should have let him go when she found out about the A; or as soon as she realized she could not forgive him; or she should have learned how to forgive.
She could have left her children a beautiful legacy. She COULD have taught and passed on to them, the concepts and practices of true forgiveness, real redemption, deep love and full commitment.
Instead, she passed onto them suspicions, distrust, cynicism, bitterness and big time grudge holding. She did not think he "deserved" forgiveness -- so she overlooked how many others were affected by her choice not to forgive.
I wish she had heard what I heard a few years back, which was
"Holding onto anger, to punish someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire---- to get smoke in their eyes."
I just cannot stress the importance of Forgiveness, enough.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
If and when she blames you for breaking her sunglasses,
LAUGH and walk away and if you can't pull that off, just get out of the room. Sometimes the insanity does not deserve an answer b/c there's nothing to say that can reach someone when they're nutty.
I recall h saying that he felt "misled" b/c I was "Supposed to be in the Senate by now!"
(Yeah, the US Senate...the one where a 100 citizens of our nation make laws and sign treaties? Yeah THAT one. I HAD to ask him why he made such a lunatic remark and yes, I worded it better--
he told me something I said on our second date, over 3 decades ago AND which was something I'd written in my diary that I "want to do when I grow up", which I wrote when I was in 6th grade!
Seriously.
There's no response to that statement of his, other than laughing and shaking my head. I mean, talk about a selective memory, (which may be what I muttered then.)
Thing is, he now has NO recall of that conversation. I ASKED! So, I'm not sure how productive it is to explore -- but it is something you need to set up a boundary for. Do not just take it.
Anyhow, the focus of "From this day forward" is something I wanted to mention. It's in a lot of marriage vows & I thnk that's brilliant b/c I don't believe we can remain married and close, for long, without lots of forgiveness of both parties. That means not constantly looking over our shoulders at the past...
You two cannot reconcile for real, without you forgiving your wife.
What does that look like to you? How, if at all, have you worked on the subject of forgiveness?
I did not see forgiveness growing up. For me, it was a learned skill.
what do you think?
25 Thank you for your perspective and posting .... always an honor.
Yes she has been pressing MC and mentioned the Retrouvaille, I did not jump at it as at the time I was not sure if this was one of her touch and go's (OM dumped her again....) So I was waiting to see if this time it was going to stick, 2 months so far and I have no signs of contact at all as far as I can tell.
As far as the MLC Crazy, yeah .. I have had a few of those, no Senate type stuff but there has been a number, about me saying I wanted to move to my home state (I left for a reason and have no intentions of going back) Holding me to things I said 20+ years ago ... dreams that have changed over the years ... yeah all that.
I have been boundary setting as far as blame, during the Anger phase I would either take it .. or spew back, I have learned those 2 methods did not work for me nor her, so now I call her on it, I will and have accepted blame where I feel I should, but yeah .... if you throw a 15yr old tantrum and sit on your own glasses ... sorry .. thats you.
As for forgiveness, this topic was discussed pretty heavy in the last thread, something I have given thought about. Being honest here, its like I have accepted ... not forgiven that the A happened. I would like to say I have forgiven her but seems that when something triggers the memory, or I feel somewhat slighted I will think about OM and the A, I may or may not say anything but its there ..... maybe its to fresh, maybe that wound is deep ... when she was in full replay she would tell me things in Moster mode that hurt, badly ... and I have not really shaken that off .... its one things to have the A, its another to have your WAS rub your face in it and tell you how amazing OM is on every level .... and like you mentioned .. she has no memory of even saying this .... feels like its my hatchet to bury and as of yet ... I have not been successful in doing so ... but I am trying to work on this.
You touched on forgiveness and not seeing it when you grew up .... I need to think about that. My mother is a fairly passive forgiving person, on the surface ... the "Oh Bless his heart" type .... not sure if she ever really forgave or just refused to speak ill of anyone ... parts of me wished I seen her atleast upset towards someone .... My father ... cut and dried, you crossed him and you were done, no questions asked .... might be part of my hang up here.
