Some great discussion the last couple of pages, if you haven't followed I encourage you to freshen up from page 9-11 before jumping in so we're not making the same points again and again. Really good things being said.
Joe, I shared your view during my M. I didn't use porn daily. My W didn't object to it but expressed that she didn't want to participate herself. I never chose porn over her. I didn't experience any physical performance issues. I spent no money. And I don't think it really impacted the rest of my life. I truly felt it was just a tool to help manage my physical urges during some difficult times throughout my M.
I can still relate to much of that, but I've been open to the idea that I've been wrong on that topic. Sex was a big contributor to the failure of my M, and in particular I pressured my W to have sex when she didn't want to or to experiment with things she wasn't comfortable with. I'm accountable for my actions, but I suspect porn played a role in conditioning me to expect unrealistic behavior in both regards. Furthermore, it wasn't easy for me to stop which is why this is my second go round at abstaining. If it isn't easy to put away than I believe it has a stronger hold than merely a harmless past time. So while I don't doubt some men (or women or couples) can use porn occasionally, there are also many people that can drink socially. I'm not convinced it's evil or always a problem, but it didn't do anything positive for me.
V, I wasn't sure why you said you were "challenging" me with your post. I agree with most of what you said. The only exception is the application of a 12 step program, I already explained why I don't believe that's the best course for porn/overeating type disorders, but I understand many people feel differently on this point. But other than that I think you're right on. Abstinence is not the same as recovery, and the compulsion needs to be addressed. That is why I have been focused on finding healthier ways to meet my own needs. Of late I have not been 'starving' spiritually, emotionally, etc. Because I'm not in such a desperate or painful situation I feel more in control of my choices than I was before. I'm not sure I'm 'cured', but I feel a lot differently than I used to.
Other thouhgts- Maybell mentioned something once as well, that all relationships have some dysfunction, we're all imperfect. While I am continuing to take what I consider positive steps, and am looking forward to the reduction of any lingering side effects of all the porn I viewed, I'll never be perfect. I think that's important to remember. There are many married couples in which one or both parties has some type of compulsive behavior. That doesn't excuse it or make it healthy, and I think we're here to become the best people we can be in our lives. I think reducing those compulsions is a good idea. I just have to remind myself that the goal isn't perfection, it's just to feel in control of the choices I'm making and being in a spot where I can be a good partner.
I don't know where I'll be in six months or a year. I feel as I continue to abstain, find alternative ways to meet my needs, and continue to explore myself and how I work...I feel I'll come to be more confident about who I am, what I am, what I need, and what I don't. I'm not sure what that will look like, but I think I'll be able to play ball from there. Already I've come a long way from where I was during my M and find my life very manageable, and am doing better than I ever have before. I see no reason for this not to continue if I keep making good choices (most of the time).
In other news I'm having a good time this weekend. I miss the kids, but it is nice to have some GAL activities. I'm getting ready to play a pool tournament, I practiced a bit last night and am watching some finals matches from the 2014 US Open to get my mind in the right state for competition. I'm going to have fun fighting today! Then, depending on how late it goes, I've been invited to a friend's house warming party tonight. I might pay a visit. We shall see.
Take care DB members and thanks for sharing the road!
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Thanks Vanilla. I certainly agree with your assessment of abstinence not really being recovery. I was thinking more of say an alcoholic presenting his excessive drinking to his Dr. The Dr would say first up - kill the drinking.
Originally Posted By: V
Of course stopping the interaction with the compulsion , in this case porn is the first step to recovery. If low self esteem is the trigger then address it. Your W Pyrite has no power to make you feel 'special' that is your power alone, and you can make you feel special. There is nothing wrong with wanting acceptance and love, validation of our deepest needs.
OK so this is the thing. low self-esteem is there. even if it wasn't
Low self esteem, can I just discuss that please. There really isn't such a thing in its totality. We can have low self confidence in many areas and fail to hold ourselves in regard for those areas. For example I feel very confident in my ability to cook all types of food. Food is part of my world. At the moment my confidence is low in my business. So essentially this is a fluctuating issue for me as I suspect for all of us. We can borrow our confidence and self respect from one area and apply it to another. my body confidence is low because of my extra weight and this may impinge on my ability to have new R. So in all of us we have areas of lowness and areas of highness. I am going to visit your thread and ask you to explore this a little with me. If that is ok?
Originally Posted By: ^
There is nothing wrong with wanting acceptance and love, validation of our deepest needs.
but when you don't get this and you already have low self-esteem..... train wreck.
Do you mean don't get it in terms of not knowing? I do hope so. Why? Because no one gives this to you to get, it is something you build for yourself with your own thoughts and emotions. Besides who says having low self esteem is a train wreck? It can and should be temporary (like having measles) not permanent (like blindness. I would loe you to think of this as a temporary drought period and a place and time in which you can develop the resources to have a full internal locus of control. I remember this discussion with Jim in November last year and we challenged him to come up with 100 things he liked about himself that day. I think this challenge would be appropriate for you.
So - yes I agree that I have to fix my self-esteem, so that i feel special on my own, but this doesn't change basic requirement ^^ of a relationship.
I do not agree at all with this otherwise those without a primary relationship would not function at all. Self esteem isn't a faulty piece of equipment to 'fix', it is more of a self loving condition which fills you and makes you able to give to others. Giving without expectation and that will enable you to feel like the fundamentals of who you are are fine as they are. You can accept yourself as you are made and then everything else is a plus. A work in progress issue.
Am I getting this wrong here?
Your view is different to mine not 'wrong' but I would submit that it isn't very useful by way of belief to you. If you can change your belief and see the 100 things then the other 5 things are in perspective. Some things are self affirming whilst others need work, and that on balance you see yourself as capable and able to function.
BTW - just for the record I have/had problems with compulsive behaviour but porn isn't really one of them. I can understand it though, and could cross over very easily.
Actually the compulsion does not matter very much, it is the existence of that nature and some are unlucky enough to have a predisposition to compulsive behaviour. That makes life more challenging and ultimately more rewarding.
Apologies for the hijack Zues we can travel to Ps thread to continue. This is challenging because of validation and acceptance, plus I myself don't have this predisposition but I have experience now of others with it. It needs managing.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Thank you so much Vanilla for looking into my thread. Just a heads up, the self- esteem issue began when I was a child, compounded when I was a sick child as well. This is a big problem for me and has been my whole life.
I will have to read your comments again. 100?! thats a bit rich. i would be happy to come up with 10.
-Py
M: 6 T: 12 Kids: 2,4 BD: Jan 2015 S: Feb 2015 EA/PA confirmed: Feb2015/Mar2015
You've taught me well old Obe One. I had to respond to a difficult email again this evening. And I keep in mind the tricks you taught me. Actually all the time, not just in emails.
Another big thing I keep in mind is that I am more scared of how I will deal with it rather than the actual "event". Then I keep in mind something a realisation that saved a few weeks back "She can't hurt me worse than what has already passed."
There have been no "improvements in my sitch.She just keeps pushing forwards to make this permanent. So "What I am scared of in this case, and all of them really, is that re-location is really, or at least symbolic of the point of no return for me. So I am scared that THEN it will be over. But reality is that it is over now. So what am I really worried about?
Forever is a mighty longtime. I am worried that I absolutely won't want to go back, there is too much damage to be undone. But the reatily is that I will always be willing try. I do love her, despite what she has done. That alone is not enough and I think I lack the sense of commitment to M that you have, but I am so committed to my girls that I would drop everything to try and give them what they deserve.
I am forever in your debt for the perspective you've given me and the techniques/approaches/interpretations you have taught me.
Hope your competition went well.
M: 6 T: 12 Kids: 2,4 BD: Jan 2015 S: Feb 2015 EA/PA confirmed: Feb2015/Mar2015
Thanks guys. I've noticed my posting has slowed down a bit the last few days, but I hope you know I've read every one of both of your posts and have followed my other friends on here as well. I think I've just been a bit more reflective.
You're right Py. Forever is a long time. It's almost impossible to get your head around D. It's like trying to comprehend the size of the universe. Maybe it's denial, deep down we think things will someday be ok again. That denial allows us to deal with as much pain as we can safely handle. And that's enough to keep us busy for years. Or maybe it's because it just takes a ton of time for a new life to emerge. But it is a big loss. I can't really picture being with another woman because I am still in a place where I know I'd be comparing to STBX, thinking of her, etc.
What's more, getting back together wouldn't necessarily solve all of these problems. There would be no undoing the pain and damage that has been done. And while I believe in compassion, forgiveness, and see the value in standing for M, I can't pretend that there wouldn't be a lot of loss involved either way.
I don't know that I feel bad about these things anymore. I'm trying to allow myself to feel sad right now, and I'm really not. I think there is still some disbelief at how people choose to treat each other in this world, some shock that this is the road my STBX chose to take. And I do get fired up at people that initiate D's or have A's. This isn't a constant poison in my heart, and I don't mind it. I think it's a passion. The same way if I lost a loved one to texting and driving I might be a bit worked up on the subject, unable to bite my tounge...instead I can't help but preach about M. When I found out a former employee of mine was having an affair with a M woman I let him have it. I don't know if it made a difference, but I had to speak my mind.
But sadness? Not really. It's a new day and I'm going to go for a run, listen to some thought stimulating content, have a nice meal, catch up around the house, and relax a bit. My father just got back in town after a 6 month vacation so I'll be talking to him a bit too. I'm grateful he's still around and will take advantage. I actually think my natural state is healthier now than it ever has been.
Oh, the tournament was a blast yesterday. I made it to the finals and it came down to one game, I couldn't get that one so I ended up in second place. But I had a ton of fun, and despite not having played much lately I played really well and really enjoyed the battle. I remember why I love that game. There was one moment where I made back to back miracle shots to steal a game. I must have been a million to one, the only reason it wasn't impossible is because I did it. There was a lot of excitement around that, a lot of people watching and betting on the side, cheering, etc. It's a lot of fun.
It is hard because for the first time in my life I don't have a pool table in my house, I used to be able to just hit balls or do drills for a few minutes here and there, it definitely helped me stay on top of my game. My goal is in a year to have a place that will allow a pool table again. Anyway, I'm setting up a few challenge matches and money games to keep testing myself. I'm no longer obsessive about the game, but there are a lot of reasons I enjoy playing. One is it makes me remember who I am. I've spent so much of my life with a cue in my hands that every time I screw my stick together to do battle I feel like I'm 15 again. Only I can do some things these days that are pretty fun to be part of.
Py, Tulo...I'm sorry that you're having to share this road. I know how raw this is, it is the worst. Hang in there. Py, I'm proud of you. There's plenty of work to do ahead but you're doing all you can do. Keep charging!
Thank you to the DB forums!
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Wow, it's like now that it's on my mind it's EVERYWHERE.
My dad told me about a controversial debate that's going on about addiction. I'll have to check it out, right now I'm talking about this third hand.
So the classic model of addiction is that once we get a taste of something that makes our brain light in powerful ways (porn, opiates, gambling, etc), we become addicted, and we need more to feel good.
This has been the long time view, and has been supported by a classic test: A rat is locked in a cage with two water bottles. One has regular water, another has water laced with cocaine. All the experiments proved that the rat became addicted, and drank the cocaine water until it was strung out or dead from OD. So again, the conclusion is our desire for the addictive substance controls our actions and we become a slave to it, even at the result of personal destruction.
But this ignores a ton of evidence we see every day. Soldiers going to Viet Nam that used heroin daily during their deployment, that then returned and never used again. Cancer patients that are prescribed morphine for their pain for 6 weeks, that then stop using when the pain is gone. And so on.
So another experiment was conducted. A rat was locked in a cage, two bottles of water, one laced with cocaine...but this time there was more in the cage. It was a HUGE cage with hamster wheels, toys, places to explore, and a community of other rates to mate and raise young with. Guess what? The rat tried the cocaine water but never became addicted, and quickly avoided it going forward.
This experiment was meant to prove that the addicted substances by themselves aren't so powerful that they enslave us and control our lives. It's only when we are sad, unfulfilled, and malnourished in our own spirit that we are susceptible. So when the rat was locked up, lonely, bored, being tortured by neglect and captivity...yes, it coked itself out. But in a full community, it had no such compulsion.
This ties in nicely with my thoughts about understanding what needs were being neglected, and working to meet my own needs in healthier ways. I can see how I felt so compelled to 'rely' on porn during my sex starved M...and also how my STBX could be so compelled to end the M and seek comfort with OM, alcohol, or the promise of a brighter future. It gives me compassion for both of our failings. And it gives me hope for change.
Py- honestly, I'm so darn happy the only thing that's sad is I don't have a partner to share the love I feel in my heart with. But trust me, I'm saving it all up, and I'm determined to give my next woman the 2.0 version
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Zues, congrats on the tournament success. I think it's great that there's something you have such passion about.
You have posted a good deal lately about your next R. What you want, what you fear, how much you want it, that you aren't ready. I think that's all good stuff, and it will come together and sort itself out when you are ready, as long as you aren't using the next R as a painkiller. And I don't think you would, you are very aware of that potential. So relax and let it happen.
I have considered what I want in a future partner, too, and spelled some of it out on my thread. I've had that put to the test this week as I've gotten to know a guy who would like to date me. He is really nice and makes me laugh, but falls short in a couple of specifics. And it makes me re-evaluate my list, is this really what I'm looking for, and why would I reject a really nice guy over that one thing? Is it really that important? I know it's a process I'm going to have to go through.
I think I'm getting ramble, not my usual style, so I'll stop here. Looking forward to more of your thoughts, Zues.
