You may want to stop concurring with your W when she says something is "tragic". On this board, you can say something is tragic. We get it - and we agree. However, when you agree with your wife that what is happening is "tragic":
1) you make it sound like the events are totally out of her control. Again - your W has a choice. This is a calculated premeditated move by your W. There is no need to sympathize with your W as if her actions were preordained from on high. Being stricken with cancer is tragic, but going out of your way to D your H is not.
2) you make it sound like you are very devastated by what is happening. While I am sure you are devastated - we all are - you should not be telegraphing this to your W. It is the opposite of acting "as if". You need to really look like you are moving on, if you are serious about LRT. W does not need to see your sad face.
RAI
RAI, Thanks for the feedback! I have tried to employ a calculated approach, where at times I expose a little emotional vulnerability to STBX. Up until this point, I adopted a fairly stoic approach. Simply tried to modify and monitor results. However, I am open to and consider all suggestions.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
The comment Fogg posted was something I was referring to.
Also Ya.. You know W this isn't what I pictured for our M but sometimes we just have to roll with the punches. I know I'm going to be okay...
Believe that and you will. I hope you turn a point soon where you can see that this is true. There comes a point in time where the LBS does drop the rope and the WAS will feel it. Not because we are trying to show them we are but because we stop trying so hard.
I hope you will hit the brakes hard. Again I can't reinforce enough... You still need to be nice and pleasant
Good morning everybody! I had a great night last night, spending some time with my best friend, enjoying some craft beers, all while his wife watched the kids for a few hours. The kids and I spent the night at their house and a good time was had by all.
So, this is where a coparenting question arises. What responsibility do I have to notify STBX of my plans with kids? Do I have to notify her if someone else watches the kids for a few hours?
STBX called from work last night to check on kids. I told her that I was out for a bit and my best friend's wife was watching the kids. This threw her for a loop. I told STBX that she could call my best friend's wife (her old best friend) if she wanted to talk to the kids.
A few hours later, she sent me these texts: "I didn't realize the kids were sleeping over at the xxxxx. Can you let me know next time?" "I'm not upset. I just like knowing where the kids are and who is watching them."
I didn't reply. Then, at 11:30pm, STBX calls. I answer the fourth call. She asks about the kids and me going out, etc. I tell her that the kids and I are all sleeping and that we can talk in the morning.
Then, this morning she called after her shift. I quickly began sharing about the kids. STBX told a short story from work. Then, she asked again about my night out and the sleep over. I told her a two sentence recap and explained how much fun the kids had.
I'm sure STBX will bring it up again. But, I just don't think I need to run every childcare scenario by her.
Thoughts?
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
I know I'm not supposed to be available for STBX but I also don't want to hold her hostage by withholding contact from her kids. I knew she was really missing D4. So, when she called again this morning, I answered, but only so she could talk with D4.
I said hello and immediately put D4 on the phone. D4 told STBX to call back tonight LOL. Then, I started to say my goodbyes when she said "wait, before you rush me off."
STBX begins to say that she has really been missing me, been thinking about things, and is starting to have second thoughts. She starts to cry. I give her space to talk and cry. I can tell she is waiting for a response from me so I say, "yeah it's really crazy right now with everything going on." She agrees with me.
STBX cries for about 30 seconds to a minute and their is just silence on my end of the phone. She says that our MR wasn't bad all the time and begins to say things like she never thought it would end up like this, etc. I responded by saying that if I had it to do all over again, I would do a lot of things differently. And she said that she would too.
It felt like a good spot to be vulnerable, so I briefly apologized for neglecting our MR, not doing enough to cherish her, not doing enough to work on MR. I said I was sorry that she felt alone and isolated in our MR. I then thanked her for the kids.
I told her to drive safe and get some rest. She tearfully said goodbye.
The whole exchange seemed very similar to the one Kramer just had with his WW. I was thankful that I was able to call upon his sitch and how he handled it to help with mine.
I tried to not pursue STBX but I also wanted to capitalize on the moment to validate her feelings and also show her that I have been thinking about and would be willing to work on my share of the MR problems.
It's also important to note what I didn't hear from STBX: -no remorse for A -no responsibility for her own role in A and MR problems -no outward expression to work on MR
So, not going to make too much out of the conversation other than I need to continue on my present course, as it seems to be having some impact on STBX. But more importantly, my present course has been great for me in beginning to heal and move forward with my life, with or without STBX.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
There is no court order restricting your 100% right to do whatever you want with your children. You could get on a plane this afternoon and fly to Africa for a month if you want.
Couple ways to play this going forward:
1. Don't talk about it. It's discussing and negotiating terms of a divorce and custody arrangement that you want no part of discussing. You don't want a divorce at all. Lawyers can handle the divorce details, if necessary.
2. It sounds like she's just demanding the courtesy of knowing where the kids are all the time but that's not how parallel co-parenting plans work. Might be good time to discuss that IF you divorce you kind of like the idea of a parallel parenting plan for high conflict divorces wherein neither of you will really know much of what goes on with the kids on a daily basis when they are with the other parent. [then again, this may be tipping your hat too early about a legal strategy...if and when she files you want her to file nice~~~ hopefully)
3. I don't think she's pushing for this but it would probably REALLY work in your favor to get it....a "Right of First Refusal". She works nights and the kids are "babysat" by your inlays all the time. A "right of first refusal" seemingly would give you the right to step in and be with your children while she's working instead of them being babysat by your inlaws. You'd simply never have a situation like last night again where you should give her the right to step in. It's not hard. You and your buddy could have stayed home and had craft beers over a fire pit in the back yard. A right of first refusal would be much more advantageous to you.
Again, it doesn't sound like she WANTS the right of first refusal. She just thinks she's entitled to be notified where her children are at all times (of course, this "rule" isn't reciprocal). You could listen to her and sympathize and without trying to teach her say something like "If we divorce, it's going to be really hard for both of us to accept not knowing what are kids are doing 24/7....it's killing me not having my kids sleeping down the hall every night, how are you handling it???".
No crying, begging, weakness. No acting, pretending. No in your face I can do whatever I want with the kids during "my time" Just being human
****look at your progress. You are a month now past exposure. She hasn't blown up at you in weeks. She hasn't filed yet (and you'll be ok if she does...it's just a piece of paper which doesn't negate the progress you've made). You are now assessing the situation yourself through your own filter and taking advice not as direction but rather as input in your own decision making processes. Things are OK. You are making it. Either way.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
On an unrelated note, a semi-hijack: GB, what is your background? I noticed that you do not have a thread - unless I could not find it. I would love to hear your story. I've deduced that you are not D. Are you piecing, reconciled? Just wondering. No obligation to share if you do not want to.
RAI
I haven't shared my entire story here or really anywhere on the public net. I was way more of a lurker than a participant online. Also, I send people here in real life and speak to large groups on the subject from time to time. I choose not to put much identifying information on the internet in this subject area intentionally.
Here's something I wrote before:
Quote:
I don't think sharing my story on Mahhty's thread would be appropriate but then would starting a thread called "me" be appropriate? I am not here for help but to help others. I'm a former betrayed husband in a recovered marriage. I very much love my wife and we've been reconciled for many years. She and I both volunteer our time with the marriage ministry at our large church. I consider helping out on forums a part of my personal ministry as well. We have read and discussed just about every major book on the subject out there. We also discuss many of my posts before I submit them.
Hope that's enough for now. Someday when I'm off restriction maybe I'll have PM access and you can ask me more questions if you desire.
I also wanted to say that my advice applies equally to both genders. I tend to be attracted to the more relatable male stories on this forum but my directness about wayward wives is equally as direct when discussing wayward husbands. I actually hold wayward husband's to an even higher standard as the leaders of their families and marriages but that's another story and another day. The point is, I don't harbor any bitterness or resentment towards my long ago former wayward wife that is somehow being injected into my posts as hatred or meanness towards any wayward person or situation on this forum. I/we believe all way wards (male or female) are selfish self entitled monsters that need to be saved from their folly, not vindictively beaten into submission. As MWD suggests, I loved my wife back to our marriage years ago. Most forums believe that is impossible, but I lived it. I was personally more aggressive than seems to be suggested on these forums. I lovingly fought for my marriage and family versus just "standing" but I still very much appreciate MWD for having and conveying hope for even the most egregious marital situations. I, too, thought my marriage was over. It was not. There is always hope.
_________________________
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
I know I'm not supposed to be available for STBX but I also don't want to hold her hostage by withholding contact from her kids. I knew she was really missing D4. So, when she called again this morning, I answered, but only so she could talk with D4.
I said hello and immediately put D4 on the phone. D4 told STBX to call back tonight LOL. Then, I started to say my goodbyes when she said "wait, before you rush me off."
STBX begins to say that she has really been missing me, been thinking about things, and is starting to have second thoughts. She starts to cry. I give her space to talk and cry. I can tell she is waiting for a response from me so I say, "yeah it's really crazy right now with everything going on." She agrees with me.
STBX cries for about 30 seconds to a minute and their is just silence on my end of the phone. She says that our MR wasn't bad all the time and begins to say things like she never thought it would end up like this, etc. I responded by saying that if I had it to do all over again, I would do a lot of things differently. And she said that she would too.
It felt like a good spot to be vulnerable, so I briefly apologized for neglecting our MR, not doing enough to cherish her, not doing enough to work on MR. I said I was sorry that she felt alone and isolated in our MR. I then thanked her for the kids.
I told her to drive safe and get some rest. She tearfully said goodbye.
The whole exchange seemed very similar to the one Kramer just had with his WW. I was thankful that I was able to call upon his sitch and how he handled it to help with mine.
I tried to not pursue STBX but I also wanted to capitalize on the moment to validate her feelings and also show her that I have been thinking about and would be willing to work on my share of the MR problems.
It's also important to note what I didn't hear from STBX: -no remorse for A -no responsibility for her own role in A and MR problems -no outward expression to work on MR
So, not going to make too much out of the conversation other than I need to continue on my present course, as it seems to be having some impact on STBX. But more importantly, my present course has been great for me in beginning to heal and move forward with my life, with or without STBX.
No expectations.
You really don't know if this is crocodile tears or the real thing that could and will be followed up by action.
But it does sound like progress to me.
In my opinion, wayward wives aren't remorseful for their affairs until they fall in love with you again and realize you didn't deserve it. Until then...it's almost a chicken and egg debate. Meaning they think "If my husband hadn't have neglected me, if he'd cherished my and loved me enough, I never would have even thought about cheating". It's messed up but it takes time to unwind this thinking and they don't gain empathy for your position in the chicken/egg unravel until they fall back in love with you again. THEN...you get your apology.
Next time you discuss her being unsure the only thing you need to push for is her delaying the divorce (and delaying the insurance of unnecessary legal fees). It's a practical (non-begging and non-pursuing) reason for you to push her to just hold up on moving forward considering that she is having second thoughts. After that you just indicate that for now let's focus on having a great summer with our kids and see if we feel differently come August. As long as she works with OM...REALLY reconciling (moving back together, counseling, opening up yourself, etc.) kind of has to wait for absolute "no contact". So, in the meantime...delay divorce, push her to move jobs and have a fun summer.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
GB, Good to hear from you! I always appreciate your well reasoned take on my sitch.
T0, Thanks for your perspective yesterday. I tried to pepper it into my approach last night and this morning.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
I wonder if part of this is because you went out last night.
Stay the course.
So...camping on Sunday.
No electronics?????
Completely unplug.
Tell wife in advance and let her feel what it's like to just be completely out of touch with her children for just one night. Not that you are concerned with what she feels or not....rather, YOU could use a night where you don't check your phone to see if she's called or texted and having to manage her feelings of missing the kids or not. The consequences may be felt or not...either way you get a night to just focus on your child.
Also let your DD4 KNOW you are doing this. Kids...especially young girls, need to see their parents (fathers especially) "unplug" from the internet to spend time in real human interactions. As the father of a children who live connected to their phones, I can't stress enough the importance of this lesson early on. It should be a habit that you do this. Might also be something you explain to your wayward wife: "listen...I will be turning off my phone and unplugging from the electronic world tonight and tomorrow to spend time with DD4 and teach her that "unplugging" is important before she gets older, plugs in and disappears into her phone like every other young girl I see out there".
Finally. If you wife has to work sunday and she comes to you discussing this second thoughts thing again....maybe..maybe (using your own judgment here) you could invite her to come along. Call in sick to work and come camping with you and your daughter on the condition she "unplugs" too.
We are always trying to watch their actions instead of listening to their words. Well, calling in sick and not taking the opportunity to see or speak to OM in order to go camping with her husband and child would be an action consistent with her actually having second thoughts. It's not lights out "we are recovering". She misses her family and time with you but doesn't really know why and she could just take this offer, come and "eat cake" so to speak and decide to be back on the divorce train monday (so NO expectations). But your daughter would LOVE to see you all together and it might make any impending divorce better for her. Some last memories together having fun. No heavy relationship talk. No chasing. If she rejects the invite...no biggie.
Just a thought.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
