My STBX wanted to be a stay at home mom. Her mom was a SAHM that raised the kids, then divorced her dad when they were all in school. X-MIL is now single and still very resentful towards her ex. That was STBX's dream as well. She wanted three children and to be able to raise them. The sex stopped after our third child, and now that the youngest is nearing kindergarden age the bomb got dropped. In many ways I don't think she ever expected a life long partnership with me, but wanted my sperm and support while she raised the kids. Now she's ready to cut bait. And her only regret was "she wished she could've made it until the youngest was in school".
Zues this concerns me a great deal. There seem to be so many thinking issues and muddles. From mind reading, destructive (stinking) thinking, past rewriting, and black and white views.
Really!
Considering yourself a sperm donor. These are your children as much as hers! Maybe WW was just an egg donor. Please stop this loop, I know you know better.
I know if you asked her she would say she wanted to make her M work, and that it was a goal of hers. But I really do think that raising the children was a NEED of hers, M was a want, and that's why she stopped investing in the M and was a overachieving mom.
A good M is the best way to bring up children and this takes two parents. Being a good dad is enough of itself.
I said this once long ago and was told I was rewriting history, diagnosing my ex, making excuses when the issue was my mistreatment of her. Truly I'm not interested in doing that. I know our history, I know my actions, and I know what went through her head is irrelevant to what I need to do now.
Whoever said that was wise. I do hope you listened? Well here is your second chance, and maybe there will be a third one........
I just know that I understand the feeling of being played a fool when you thought you were working on something together and the other person had been checked out a long time.
It isn't foolish if you do this for you. Stand for you and your M, it's very brave.
I am so very puzzled by this post Zues, it sounds early Zues before 2x4 action.
V
Last edited by Vanilla; 05/15/1502:49 AM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
I too am puzzled ^^^. I will have to look on Sunny's thread now to see the context it was in. I suspect just empathising? I do this as well and am guilty of perhaps turning it into venting of *repressed* anger.
*repressed* because it isn't that easily defined. sometimes it is actively repressed. sometimes I can live with it and sometimes it comes to the surface.
I dont know the context, but the content could be my rant as well. Same neurotic mother, M not her priority, I nose-dived into insane despair and treated her poorly as punishment.
We are where we are. I think it is necessary at certain junctures to cut yourself off from DBing. I mean like in this case, or my analogous point on this path. I have an understanding of what happened, how it happened, and why. Because I have been trying hard to NOT burn-bridges or medicate or move forward by rewriting history etc, I am (usually) in a position (that I know you are too Zeus) that I dont BLAME her.
This being the case, I think when the *repressed* anger surfaces about our horrible situation(s) we need only to get back to here. Re-settle with this alone before adding further complications into it like "what I need to work on that lead to my part" in the M failure etc.
Like rewinding to an earlier solid point. Sit here until you feel it is safe to move forwards again.
I'm sure you can deal with this on your own Z. Writing it down for my own benefit as well. I have been a bit flat since my HIGH the other day. It goes in circles. Most likely reality is that for at least the next few years my family will be strewn across the city, kids will be volley balls etc. This has been the case since day 1 (or soon after anyway). I denied it, I could;t accept it, I was angry about it. Periodically I conquer some aspect along this path and I feel great. But then it sinks in that this ^^ is till true. Then follows the step backwards.
M: 6 T: 12 Kids: 2,4 BD: Jan 2015 S: Feb 2015 EA/PA confirmed: Feb2015/Mar2015
Wonka- I agree with your remarks. My question that has been quoted by you and 25 was more of a challenge to a lot of the advice I've seen from other men suggesting to get out and date, go out with lots of women, etc, as a way of gaining confidence about the validity of your needs and your desirability. You may remember the "man cave" thread for example. And a few other posters are very pro-"date lots of women". My only post on the man cave was to state I wasn't interested in learning how to attract women by turning myself into some "alpha male", because I'm not going to put on an act, nor would I really want to be with a woman who was attracted to an act like that. That said, I like the responses, it affirms what I believed in my heart was true for me.
I think that all addictions diminish emotional IQ, they are a means of escape and avoidance, and of medicating moods. And from what I've read about porn, it takes time for the brain to detox, rewire thought patterns, and allow the endorphin centers to readjust. I'm only a few months in of total abstainance (for the second time) so I haven't come far enough to know how differently my mind will work in, say, six more months. So I'm talking about how I feel NOW, with faith that I will continue to evolve. Some desires and needs will remain, but they may be more managable and in a different form than what I recognize in myself today. Certainly they have already changed in the last year so I am curious what the future holds. I'm not impatient, I have time. I just find it curious to pay attention to my thought patterns during this time period.
Vanilla- My post about STBX was meant to be focused on the FEELING of being played. You're correct, I don't know what went on in her mind, it's not relevant and not something I dwell on. I shouldn't have writted "she wanted this" or "she never wanted that". What I intended to communicate was the feeling of foolishishness I experienced after BD for being so committed to the M. But you are right- I don't latch on to these feelings because I AM proud of how I stood by my M (although I'm not proud of my behavior that lead to such a bad one). It was meant to empathize with Sunny who was feeling foolish for expecting her H to treat her with common courtesy during her separation. THEN AGAIN- though that's what I meant, and that's why I meant it...that's NOT what I wrote, so it is a good reality check on how easy it is to slip from "I" statements to finger pointing.
Py and all- I'm actually doing really well in terms of how I'm feeling about myself, and my life. It DEFINITELY helps to talk about it. I appreciate all of you giving me your feedback. I raised my hand and asked because I want to keep moving the right direction.
I think I've been learning to feel my feelings and manage them better than ever before. I enjoy my days, am appreciative of what I have, am closer with my children than ever, and am really just feeling good. This is a pretty new experience for me. I'm definitely more focused on me, taking care of myself, and taking care of my children, and I've let go of my STBX more than I thought possible. I feel the dust is really settling, and I'm no longer uncomfortable having conversations with her (not that that's being tested- but even brief exchanges when handing off the kids have gotten easy).
What I've been doing the last few weeks is really exploring the topics of sex in relationships, how men recover from long porn use, etc. That's why I've been bringing these topics up, but I've also been reading offline. I'm pretty sure I'm going to do the Essential Experience thing, not sure when I can make it, but maybe later this summer. But these boards are special, and the vets on here are practially professionals in the field, so no matter what else I do I will try to keep posting on my thread regularly!
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Py and all- I'm actually doing really well in terms of how I'm feeling about myself, and my life. It DEFINITELY helps to talk about it. I appreciate all of you giving me your feedback. I raised my hand and asked because I want to keep moving the right direction.
glad to hear it
I'm off on a new thread. A new period in my journey as well.
Originally Posted By: Z
What I've been doing the last few weeks is really exploring the topics of sex in relationships, how men recover from long porn use, etc.
This will be something I will have to grapple with later. I have been going to look at the "sex starved M" but this would be stupid, ATM I am still dealing with not having a M. My M and R was seriously sex-starved. In retrospect I am surprised things held together, but then this just makes me sad. The reason it did was that we were such good friends (earlier on).
I know how irrelevant this is but I just have to get it off my chest. I think about how she is dealing with intimacy now with OM. She has made progress in this respect, I doubt she has changed her spots, maybe she has and I just missed out . Maybe it was just me, and as I have said before that the M was a mistake in the first place because this was always the case, apart from her leaving a few years in because she felt I was like her "brother".
M: 6 T: 12 Kids: 2,4 BD: Jan 2015 S: Feb 2015 EA/PA confirmed: Feb2015/Mar2015
You know, this seems fairly obvious now that I'm typing it but it's the first time I've thought of it in these words before. I think porn impacts self worth a lot because is a more shame filled addiction, and one reason why is the reaction it gets. I think that's because many women have been hurt directly by porn, feeling betrayed, having their confidence undermined, and in many other ways. As a result there is can generate much more powerful reactions than, say, a gambling addiction. I've seen many people on these forums talking about quitting alcohol, for example, with little contraversy. I don't bring that up to defend porn or say it's being singled out. Only to point out that it's very unpopular.
I can see why I wouldn't be feeling confident about my self worth. As I said, I'm still sorting out what my natural desires are versus my conditioned desires. And what I've learned is that those that have been influenced by porn are very hurtful to women and provoke quite a backlash. So suppose I have desire A, desire B, and desire C. I share desire A and a woman might reciprocate and we get close, understand each other, and fulfill each other. I share desire B, same thing. Then I share desire C and am cast away and told I have problems, there is something wrong with me. So you'd go from being loved to being condemned.
So I can see why I'd be not very confident. It creates a lot of problems. I can't be myself or I won't be loved, I have to act like someone else. I feel ashamed of my desiress because I've been told they're wrong. I feel guilty because other people tell me they've been wounded, feel insecure, betrayed, or hurt because of desires I've expressed. What a confusing spot to be, where you don't know what's ok and what's not, where you feel judged for what you're attracted to.
This feeds the cycle of porn. Because porn doesn't reject or judge, in fact it's very existance seems to offer approval and understanding because it wouldn't be there if it didn't have a vast audience. And then it stimulates and satisfies in many ways as well. So it actually meets emotional needs and not just pleasure censors.
My goal is to get to the point where I have detoxed long enough to get to where I know what MY real needs and desires are, and where I have learned enough on the topic to rewire some thought patterns. At that point I think I can be more confident knowing that I'm me at my best self. From there if a woman finds me repulsive, well, we're not a good fit.
So cliff notes, it gives me confidence that I will become more confident because I realize a lot of the insecurity has come from the reactions that I've gotten for outlooks that might not be naturally mine. Obviously this is just journaling here and trying to work through things.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
This makes sense. It doesn't all apply to me though. My W was oblivious to any porn i watched and it didn't impact our sex life. It was really only ever a substitute for me as our sex life was virtually non-existent. (probably about 100 times in 12 years!!!)
So maybe I (also) have a problem with how am I going to deal with a normal sex life? I dont know, but it is so far away from me that I honestly dont think about it.
ergggggh - it just burns me up that the WAWs don't have to deal with any of this. Even the sex life thing, she is already on that horse. Sure she "might" have to deal with it sooner or later, but she "might not" either. Not that it matters, and not that it makes it any less annoying. And again, "I" have to regroup and calm myself, blah blah, and the road continues - i'm just tired. Time to beach it for me.
M: 6 T: 12 Kids: 2,4 BD: Jan 2015 S: Feb 2015 EA/PA confirmed: Feb2015/Mar2015
My last post contained 11 tips to help boost sexual desire. If you are someone whose sexual desire needs no boosting, that doesn't mean that you get to sit back and wait for your spouse to change. In fact, you are equally responsible for changing your attitude and how you handle this issue in your marriage. This post will offer you 9 tips to approach your spouse in ways that will increase the likelihood that she or he will want to be close to you. Ready? Here goes.
1. Don't take it personally Differences in sexual desire among couples are very, very common. Although it is hard to have your advances rejected repeatedly without taking it personally, you need to remind yourself that you spouse's lack of interest in sex just may not be about you, your attractiveness, or your qualities as a human being. It may simply be a matter of a hormone deficiency, other physiological problems, or feelings s/he has about himself/herself. Although you undoubtedly still want things to change, try to develop a little empathy for your spouse. Chances are, given the choice, s/he would prefer to feel turned on easily. It's not exactly a picnic to feel disinterested in something your spouse thrives on! S/he probably feels inadequate and questions his/her own sexuality. I know this situation hurts you, but don't underestimate how painful this is for your spouse either. Even if s/he acts defensively, s/he probably spends lots of time wondering why things aren't easier between you. Try to be more understanding.
2. Break free from the Catch-22 If you are a man whose wife is less interested in sex than you, and my description of the gender differences (she wants you to be more communicative and attentive before she is interested in sex) rang true for you, it's time to start paying attention to your friendship with your wife. Many women are wired this way. They can't get turned on unless they feel close to you.
This means that you need to start doing the things that are important to her, like talking about personal issues, spending time together, doing things as a couple, pitching in more at home, being more available to her, and asking her about her day. These are the kinds of things that soften women's hearts. And women adore it when men do small things for them. Bring her a cup of coffee in the morning. Leave her a note telling her you love her. Call her from work just to tell her that you are thinking of her. Bring home a single rose. Make her feel special. Be romantic. Women love it when men show their affection through random acts of kindness. They are much more likely to want to be close to you sexually when you do.
If you're upset with your wife because she's been cold and rejecting, the last thing you feel like doing is being kind and thoughtful. All I can say is that if you really want to improve your sex life and your wife needs to feel close to you emotionally as a prerequisite, doing the things that bring you closer to her is the only way you are going to get there. You can hold out because you're angry, or you can break free from the Catch-22 and be loving. Experiment by being a friend and watch what happens. Friendship is a great aphrodisiac for most women!
If you are a woman and the more highly sexed partner, the same theory applies. So many men have told me that their wives are "bitchy" and naggy and it really turns them off. Men become passive-aggressive, agreeing to your demands but turning off to you emotionally and sexually. Why not approach things differently? Even though you might feel hurt or rejected or unsexy because your spouse has been so apathetic, don't be critical. Be kind. Be complimentary. Catch your husband in the act of doing something right and tell him about it.
Look at your own behavior. Figure out what you might be doing that could make your spouse respond defensively. Ask yourself, "What has my husband been complaining about recently in regards to my behavior?" and start changing. Become more of the person he wants you to be and he might become more of the person you want him to be.
3. Do something different Without knowing you, I can say with some certainty that your "more of the same" behavior has been to pursue your spouse for sex. And since this has become such a heated, ongoing issue between the two of you, you've gotten into roles with each other. You pursue him or her for sex, and s/he declines your offer. The more you pursue, the more your spouse feels pressured and angry and pulls away. So, it's time for you to try a new approach. Back off for a while - No matter how attracted you might be to your spouse or how ready you might be to make love, for a certain period of time you should commit to not approaching him or her. Do not initiate sex for a while and see what happens. Don't talk about your plan. Don't threaten. Just back off and wait. Sometimes the lower-sexed person simply needs more time to allow his/her batteries to recharge. When the tug of war has ended, s/he might feel more amorous. It's really worth a shot.
I know that backing off isn't easy, especially if you're feeling turned on. But if you haven't tried back off yet, at least for several weeks at a time, you need to put this on your short list of things to try.
Stop talking about sex and focus on yourself for a change - You have been so focused on your relationship (at least the sexual part of it) that you have probably put your other needs aside. Rather than spend time arguing about what is or isn't happening in your marriage, use the time to focus on yourself and find things to do that fulfill you. Go out with friends. Start a new hobby. Join a health club. Go to church. Once s/he sees you focusing on yourself rather than your sex life, s/he might want to be more involved in your life...in every way.
Do a 180 - Wouldn't it just blow your spouse' mind if you were to tell him/her that you have been doing some reading and that you now have a better understanding about his/her feelings about sex and that you're sorry about all the fighting? Think about it. Your spouse has been making you feel like a sex maniac and you've been making him/her feel like a celibate. You're convinced that you're right and s/he's convinced that s/he's right. And where has all of that gotten you? Right here, right? So, while I can't guarantee that telling your spouse that you understand his/her feelings better will make him/her want to jump your bones, I can tell you that making your spouse "wrong" won't. Showing compassion and understanding might be the turn on s/he's been waiting for! Who knows?
4. Focus on what works Have there been times in your marriage when your sex life was more passionate? Yes, I know, in the very beginning. Newness makes hormones run amuck. That is not the case any longer. So examine your marriage beyond the very beginning. Ask yourself, "What was different about the times when my spouse was more interested in sex?" See if any of the conditions are reproducible. Then do that.
5. Touch affectionately without thinking sex is imminent Women often complain that their husbands never touch them unless they want sex. This turns them off. If, as the man, you are the more highly sexed partner, it will serve you well to remember this about your wife. She might want you to hug her, cuddle, hold hands, sit next to each other on the couch, or have you kiss her in ways that are affectionate but not sexual. Lots of women say that men are incapable of hugging without their hands sliding slowly down their butts. Since many women have a strong need for affection without sexual overtones, they get annoyed when each and every touch becomes a means of foreplay.
If this sounds familiar to you, then you might try being affectionate and stop there. Your wife will appreciate it and you. She might even wonder what in the world is going on. And that's exactly what you want to do; break out of old unproductive patterns. When you start doing the things that touch her soul, she will be more inclined to do the things that touch your body.
6. Masturbate Since your sex drives are so disparate, it's unreasonable for you to expect your spouse to take care of each and every desire. You need to take responsibility for satisfying your own needs from time to time. In all likelihood, you are already doing this and you don't need me to tell you to do it. However, you've probably been resentful about it. That's not good and it's also not fair. Although your spouse needs to do a better job in meeting you halfway, there will still be times when you are hot to trot and s/he isn't. That's normal and you need to accept it. As long as your spouse is making more of an effort to understand and care for your needs, you need to accept it. As long as your spouse is making more of an effort to understand and care for your needs, you need to accept your differences and take care of yourself occasionally without feeling resentment.
7. Accept a gift of love Sometimes, as things improve and your spouse is trying to be more caring about your needs, s/he might decide to become intimate with you even though sex might not be a burning desire. Rather than feeling insulted or put off, you should accept this as a gift of love. In good relationships, people do things for their spouses all the time that may not be exactly what they feel like doing at the moment. That's okay. In fact, that's more than okay. That's great. That's real giving. Real giving is when you give to your partner what your partner wants and needs whether or not you understand it, like it , or agree with it. Allow your spouse to show his/her love by being sexual even if it wasn't his/her favorite thing to do at the moment. Accept the gift and appreciate it. Good marriages are build on this kind of caring.
8. Respect your spouse's sexual prerequisites Here's another really good suggestion from Dr. Pat Love. When a spouse with low sexual desire tells his/her spouse about the conditions that need to be in place in order for him/her to engage in or enjoy sex, the higher-sexed spouse often does not understand or accept the requests at face value. For example, if a wife tells her husband that she prefers making love at night rather than in the morning, the husband might think she is just making up excuses. (For most men, testosterone peaks between 7 to 8 A.M.; women's testosterone levels peak in the evening.) If a husband tells his wife that he feels more turned-on after they take a shower or when the kids are asleep, she may think he is just putting things off so that sex never happens. But the truth is, these may not just be excuses. Although you may have a hard time believing or understanding this because you are ready to go at the drop of a hat, your spouse may really need things to be a certain way in order to feel relaxed, comfortable, and turned-on. As much as possible, you should try to honor these requests and not discredit your spouse when s/he is confiding in you about these preconditions. Take what your spouse is saying at face value. Create the kind of atmosphere that is most likely to be conducive to your spouse's desiring sex.
9. If all else fails, be brutally honest I've worked with countless couples where one spouse was so dissatisfied with their sexual relationship that eventually s/he decided to have an affair or leave the marriage. You might be thinking of these alternatives too. Affairs and divorce are lousy solutions Even if an affair satisfies you temporarily, it will only make things more difficult at home. Although an affair or separation sometimes serves as a wake up call to the other spouse, you can't always count on this. Affairs and separations are bad for marriages.
However, as the more highly sexed person, you might be at the end of your rope. You might be fantasizing about someone else or about packing your bags and leaving. Before you decide to have an affair or leave, I implore you to make sure your spouse knows in no uncertain terms the seriousness of the situation. Make certain s/he understands what will happen if nothing changes. Don't threaten in the heat of an argument. Don't say nasty things. Don't blame. Don't criticize. Just tell your spouse calmly (or write a letter) that because of the differences in your sexual appetites, you are so unhappy that you are considering doing something you really don't want to do. Spell out what you've been thinking about. Tell your spouse that this is not a threat, but that rather, you are so desperate, you don't know what else to do. Ask your partner one more time to seek help. Then wait and see what happens.
As I wrote in my last post, each spouse needs to take personal responsibility for making things better in the relationship. When both of you make more of an effort to understand each other's needs and feelings, you will undoubtedly feel closer and more connected emotionally and physically. And at the end of the day, isn't that what healthy marriages are all about?
I am very glad that you have come to the some realizations like you have on the overuse of porn. it took a long time for me to realize just how damaging to my marriage the use of porn was. My wife new i used it, but she had no idea how much, nor did she care...she was expecting that it was a necessary release for me. it never got to the point where i thought it was affecting my life. It took a 'water works' problem with prostate infection to figure it out.
in retrospect, it affected how i viewed sex. it was always willing, I could chose a fettish or whatever, it was always available and never rejected me. self-esteem, confidence, arousal, seeing sex as an act of love vs. necessity and so many other issues were affected, whether I thought so or not. maybe i am full of $hit, but i can totally see how it diminshed my view of my wife, who wanted 'X' or 'Y' all of the time and didn't want to do ANYTHING to please me. it wasnt that she didn't want to please me, it was just not how she was trying or that i was never honest about how i wanted to be pleased.
once I realized there is a problem, solving it was easy. just stop using it. I know this is difficult to recondition your sexual needs, but i feel so much better about myself that i don't even use porn anymore. Finding an outlet for that energy was key for me to stop. Anytime i wanted to go the internet for a release, i did push ups or pull ups until i was tired. There were other parts for curbing that appetite, but i will not get into that here. i don't even want to get into the side of how it makes women feel, i have read MANY forums, blogs, articles on the subject and i am in no position to comment on that.
Bottom line, overuse of porn DID create an unhealthy sexual desire and conditioning, especially in my sex-starved marriage atmosphere, it only made it worse.
. Maybe it was just me, and as I have said before that the M was a mistake in the first place because this was always the case, apart from her leaving a few years in because she felt I was like her "brother".