Whoa, I'm not suffering much anymore! Now what?!?

[Smothy]

Zues, I have caught up with what you have written.

It's fantastic to see how far you have come, truly inspirational for me. I can not thank you enough for helping me to 'see' my own negative behaviours through your old posts about what you did in your M.

The posts you made about the deck of cards resonates with me whenever I am dealing with a difficult person. I believe I have become more compassionate and understanding because I am less inclined to deal them low cards, my behaviour and reactions is a lot more 'tempered' :-)

I am grappling with a lot of what you are saying but most of my thoughts usually veer towards H. I think only he will really know what a fantastic W I would be in a new M/ R as he knew me from before and can see the person I have become.

I am still struggling to detach, so no where near where you are but I do have similar thoughts that cross my mind.

[Wonka]

Pyrite,

Hi Wonka,

what would you consider red flags as opposed to just baggage? How do these present in dating/early stages of a R?

Baggage, to me, is a person's character, habits, patterns and idiosyncrasies. Red flags, on the other hand, are issues and patterns that can have a detrimental effect on the R.

Red flags could be drugs, alcohol, domestic violence, or a mean streak. Some could be as simple as the person having a very negative vibe.

Baggage is something that one has to evaluate and determine if it's something you can live with and tolerate. Perhaps this person has a horrendous childhood that included abuse that colors this person's worldview. This is just an example I am using here.

I agree with Cadet that the focus needs to be on healing YOURSELF first before tipping your toe in the dating pool. In fact, I pretty forced myself to stay single and not consider dating for almost 4 years. The main reason behind this decision to hold off on dating was because the reasons to date were all wrong: I was lonely. I was needy. I was feeling less than whole.

You want to date from a position of being whole and feel that you have a lot to offer rather than seeking out a person to fill the emptiness inside you.

Bottom line, you MUST be emotionally healthy first before dating again. Otherwise, you're just gonna repeat some old patterns and everyone gets hurt.

I have actually witnessed rebound relationships and they NEVER work out. I had one rebound relationship myself and yep...that didn't work out for the obvious reasons: I had issues and she had issues.

In fact, I am seeing one rebound relationship unfold in my social circle and I can foresee that they will EVENTUALLY break up at some point. Why is that? Well, they got together when this girl had just broken off with her GF a month prior. Gee whiz, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

[Pyrite]

thanks for the reply Wonka.

You want to date from a position of being whole and feel that you have a lot to offer rather than seeking out a person to fill the emptiness inside you.

great advice.

[25yearsmlc]

Zeus,

you asked, and I answered!

Okay now, so let me see if we can parse this up and dig out something meaty....

or not...(just remember, you asked for it. )




[quote=Zues126]Thanks Smothy.

I've been posting everywhere but here. Gans thread, JB's, yours, Py's, etc.

One thing I just mentioned has to do with my feelings of self worth. I feel my personal self worth is very good right now, but what I feel I am worth to a woman is very low.

kinda confusing to me. I'm going to bet that these^^ are not both true, but that you THINK you are a good guy but you FEEL that you may not be. OR you are hoping you are a good guy but you fear you are not...

("oh that clears it up 25")

Like if you loved a certain movie that you'd tried to share with several different friends and everyone else hated it, and it got horrible reviews. You still like the movie, but you learn that no one else really does.


Any chance you're really just ^^discussing your porn interest here?

There was an exchange where Lisa B said "it would help if he was hot and good at sex" and Jelly B agreed. What's strange is my immediate reaction was "hmmm, that rules me out, I'm not attractive and would probably be a disappointment for them in bed".


Hey here's a point about porn I want to make.

AND yes I think it's an issue you are sort of dancing around...not sure why, but maybe you feel judged about it. I'm not judging you, though the porn I've seen is usually really degrading to women or violent, which is just scary to me.

Anyhow, The few times I've watched porn, unless it had a lot of men in it too (rare)

I tended to feel insecure or threatened by the women's perfect bodies and flat stomachs (women who clearly never bore children)...and wondered if h was secretly thinking of them; while with me,

oh, and I would shake my head at how those women have orgasms every 30 seconds from minimal contact (or effort of the male). I just wanted to throw that in the pot as to why a lot of women feel this way. And btw, I shared this reaction with some female friends and each one identified with it and more...

This^^ is in response to "mainstream" porn and not the kind with violence or especially humiliating portrayals of women. That stuff just freaks us out.



What's strange is that unlike my movie example, I don't know that I've gotten a ton of negative feedback. It's more like I've been afraid to share that movie with anyone else because I'm afraid of a negative reaction. And as for the last part, I have no reason to think I'm unattractive, or to think I couldn't make a woman very happy. The frustrating part is I think in my head that I would be an absolutely fantastic partner because I am sensitive, loving, loyal, smart, funny, open, honest, gifted, and accepting...however somehow in my heart I feel like I have some flaw that once women see who I really am they will cut bait.

The "Imposter Syndrome" affects many of us, especially with certain family dynamics. I can't recall what your dad does for a living or if you two were close. What was the deal with that? And your mom? Siblings?

And did you ever research that personal growth workshop "Essential Experience" in Philadelphia, I mentioned? Some other DBers have gone and each one got a lot out of it. I still highly recommend it as the best fastest way to jump start growth or rekindle it or guide someone.

I've been back to be a "team" member (to help other new participants), and each time, I gain something new.

It's profound and life altering. What else can I say? Moving on...


To be fair, because of my fears and introverted nature I have only been with two women (both of whom pursued me initially, then cheated and broke it off at the end), but I have always been repulsed with the idea of playing the field or sewing my oats. I really just want one woman in my life.


No judgement meant by this, but how does your porn interest square with^^ this?

Can you see why a partner might doubt it? Might question your fidelity?

So I've basically had minimal contact with other woman except for the two relationships I had, I'm not out seeking or achieving a lot of affirmation from women. Neither had any negative feedback about my looks or performance.

What do you NEED from a partner? And what do you dream of having? The two may not be identical.




However, I can see that if I am convinced of my low worth (and need constant reassurance that I'm good enough) that can be picked up on and devalue me to women, or to my partner, who could then actually start to agree with my negative self assessment.

Yes absolutely, and one can start to feel like a loser to be with someone so unworthy, and a cycle begins that is not healthy. Also it's not our job to prop up our spouse's self worth.

That isn't partnership or a marriage; it's one person using the other as an emotional crutch b/c they are not able to carry themselves.

I'm not really sure how to change that, or even if I really need to.

You need to be authentically happy with who you are as a man AND as a potential partner. That means that you'll take in their feedback for when you drop the ball or don't match a need of hers with something from you,

WITHOUT this making you into a monster

(i.e. you have to be able to forgive yourself for imperfection, and not blame or resent her for the feedback, then tweak the needed change and move forward...)

If it requires me to go on lots of dates and hook up with a number of women I am not really interested.

Uh, Zues, how'd that "option" present itself as a way for you to master feelings of inner worth & self confidence? I mean, I almost think you're kidding but then...not so sure

I understand that would 'work' as I am in sales, and I know how confidence builds as you 'close more deals'. But I don't want to close a lot of deals.

This^^^ is not a good relatable example to me. You are talking about profoundly intimate inner details about yourself that require brave hard work, and insights so personal that most stay far from ever having them.

No, sales pitches and "marketing tactics" are not applicable, imo.

Personally I would rather just try online dating, wait until I find someone that would rather share openly and honestly who they are and what they want, as well as their beliefs. And then be prepared to do a better job so that my insecurities don't translate into destructive behavior. What I'd need is a woman that can understand my battle and not FIX me, but simply be my partner and support me as I continue to do great things in my life for the both of us.


look at this^^^ sentence and tell me if you see anything of interest here. Anything strike you about it? Such as?

This is where I am on May 3. So yes, I am personally doing quite well. Thanks for the kind words.

So the question- is there another way to build confidence in your value to a member of the opposite sex without trying to become a playboy? If not, is there something wrong with the path I would then choose above?


Zues,
if you think the way to build your confidence with the opposite sex is by "dating a lot of them/trying to become a playboy", then you are missing a big piece and imo, doing the opposite of what is needed.

Having a deep, healthy, adult relationship will build your confidence.

but "Dating a lot" means what? Dinner? Talking? And That will make you feel more attractive?

OR do you mean Going to bed, getting praised for your "performance" and then what? Dating others?

(Sorry if I misunderstood but the "performance" comment comes b/c you seem to want to know you are good in bed, and you also seem to think the only way to know that is by bedding a lot more women.

But see, being a "good lover" means you welcome feedback from a woman you trust/love about HER needs and wants, which vary with women.

A guy might be exactly what a woman wants in a lover, but the next woman may feel quite differently. The only surefire thing that makes for a good lover is a man who wants to please his woman and does his best to do so, in a healthy respectful way. That means taking "Not tonight" as a reasonable choice, not as an affront, or something to resent or punish a person for).

If you just move on dating someone else and keep Moving on so you can "date more", Won't you just feel like a cad?

Sorry but I'm not really clear on what your belief is here or what the goal would be.

If it is to build your confidence, that sounds 1) as if you are using women to overcome your insecurities again- which means you'd just be doing more of the same, which is the problem you are supposedly remedying; AND

2) sounds like an ineffective plan anyhow.

Tell me how you would feel better about yourself if you date "a lot of women" and yet can't manage an actual adult relationship with any of them?

How would this^^ lead you to being a better partner in a healthy adult relationship?

Yikes, I'm confused.

[Pyrite]

BOOM! this will keep you busy Z.

This is the first thing that stands out to me, as in for me as well

However, I can see that if I am convinced of my low worth (and need constant reassurance that I'm good enough) that can be picked up on and devalue me to women, or to my partner, who could then actually start to agree with my negative self assessment.

Yes absolutely, and one can start to feel like a loser to be with someone so unworthy, and a cycle begins that is not healthy. Also it's not our job to prop up our spouse's self worth.

That isn't partnership or a marriage; it's one person using the other as an emotional crutch b/c they are not able to carry themselves.

I'm not really sure how to change that, or even if I really need to.

You need to be authentically happy with who you are as a man AND as a potential partner. That means that you'll take in their feedback for when you drop the ball or don't match a need of hers with something from you,

WITHOUT this making you into a monster

(i.e. you have to be able to forgive yourself for imperfection, and not blame or resent her for the feedback, then tweak the needed change and move forward...)

guilty AND failed on my account. The 1st part was true just b/c of my low self-esteem and then further battered because of resentment I felt in the 2nd (not moving forward). In the beginning I did make the change, but then resented that SHE didn't make any of the changes I asked for. After a while I just went straight to the resentment.

[Bob723]

Hello Zues,

First, thanks for checking in on me so often. I haven't been able to be here much the last few days. I've been busy GAL'ing.

Wow . . . Wonka and 25 posted in your thread on the same day. Woo Hoo! Two of my favorites. A lot of great advice and thought-provoking comments.

To quote Pyrite, "BOOM! this will keep you busy Z."

Please take a little time to digest all this and post an update when you can. I can't think of anything to add now.

Chin up, Z!

Bob

[Zues126]

Thank you for the reply 25. You brought up a lot of good points and good questions. I will also say there were times I felt very misunderstood. Which is possibly because this is online communication, but also possibly because you are right, it wasn't all easy to read. But that's ok. I appreciate your time with me 25. I’m not sure I have great answers for all of them, but I will share where I’m at in the journey.

Hey here's a point about porn I want to make.
AND yes I think it's an issue you are sort of dancing around...not sure why, but maybe you feel judged about it. I'm not judging you, though the porn I've seen is usually really degrading to women or violent, which is just scary to me.
Anyhow, The few times I've watched porn, unless it had a lot of men in it too (rare)
I tended to feel insecure or threatened by the women's perfect bodies and flat stomachs (women who clearly never bore children)...and wondered if h was secretly thinking of them; while with me,
oh, and I would shake my head at how those women have orgasms every 30 seconds from minimal contact (or effort of the male). I just wanted to throw that in the pot as to why a lot of women feel this way. And btw, I shared this reaction with some female friends and each one identified with it and more...

This^^ is in response to "mainstream" porn and not the kind with violence or especially humiliating portrayals of women. That stuff just freaks us out.


...
No judgement meant by this, but how does your porn interest square with^^ this?

Can you see why a partner might doubt it? Might question your fidelity?

Yes, I'm attracted to other women, and to porn. I haven’t watched it in months, and I am trying to eliminate it from my life. That doesn’t mean it didn’t give me a rush. It made me feel very understood, because I felt that at least SOMEONE understood the desire in my heart, and knew what revved my engine. So it met the needs of feeling understood and approved of (as opposed to rejected).

I understand women react negatively to it. Many men obviously react strongly to it or it wouldn’t be the biggest industry in the world. When I say that’s not what I want, I’m not saying I don’t desire it…I’m saying that’s not what I want. When I say I don’t want to sew my wild oats, I’m not saying I don’t have urges of desire hundreds of times a day, and I don’t have lustful thoughts every time I see a woman. What I’m saying is I don’t want to act on that.
If a woman chooses to think there’s something wrong with me for my desires then I’m not right for her. I’m not going to live my life hiding what’s in my heart.

What I want is a woman that can understand that type of desire and instead of condemning me because of the lustful thoughts I have, appreciates that I choose not to act on them and will turn only to her for fulfillment. In return I would hope that she is willing to work with me to be adventurous and openminded yet realistic and healthy.

Now, this may change as time goes on without porn in my life. I’m not sure if my desires will change, lessen, etc, as I detox further. Which is why I’m a long way from being ready for date (legal D or not). I’m not sure where I’ll be in six months and a year.

And did you ever research that personal growth workshop "Essential Experience" in Philadelphia, I mentioned? Some other DBers have gone and each one got a lot out of it. I still highly recommend it as the best fastest way to jump start growth or rekindle it or guide someone.

I've been back to be a "team" member (to help other new participants), and each time, I gain something new.

It's profound and life altering. What else can I say? Moving on...

I haven’t gone yet. It is on my things I’d like to do. I’m not sure when. I’d like to get my job down before taking time off. But I feel very compelled to do this for a refreshing look at my life.

What do you NEED from a partner? And what do you dream of having? The two may not be identical.

I don't know anymore. I'd like a woman that is willing to stay with me and not get a D when things are hard. I'd like a woman that can do what I said above, be ok with who I am without needing to change me into something I'm not. But need? I'm finding I don't need anything. If I can be ok, right here, right now...well, I don't know that I'll ever need someone else like I did a year ago.

Yes absolutely, and one can start to feel like a loser to be with someone so unworthy, and a cycle begins that is not healthy. Also it's not our job to prop up our spouse's self worth.

That isn't partnership or a marriage; it's one person using the other as an emotional crutch b/c they are not able to carry themselves.
You need to be authentically happy with who you are as a man AND as a potential partner. That means that you'll take in their feedback for when you drop the ball or don't match a need of hers with something from you,

WITHOUT this making you into a monster

(i.e. you have to be able to forgive yourself for imperfection, and not blame or resent her for the feedback, then tweak the needed change and move forward...)

I love this. Agreed. I easily default to all or nothing thinking. It put too much pressure on my W. How can she give me feedback on how she's doing if I go straight to "you hate me, I'm terrible!"?

If it requires me to go on lots of dates and hook up with a number of women I am not really interested.

Uh, Zues, how'd that "option" present itself as a way for you to master feelings of inner worth & self confidence? I mean, I almost think you're kidding but then...not so sure

I understand that would 'work' as I am in sales, and I know how confidence builds as you 'close more deals'. But I don't want to close a lot of deals.

This^^^ is not a good relatable example to me. You are talking about profoundly intimate inner details about yourself that require brave hard work, and insights so personal that most stay far from ever having them.

No, sales pitches and "marketing tactics" are not applicable, imo.

Personally I would rather just try online dating, wait until I find someone that would rather share openly and honestly who they are and what they want, as well as their beliefs. And then be prepared to do a better job so that my insecurities don't translate into destructive behavior. What I'd need is a woman that can understand my battle and not FIX me, but simply be my partner and support me as I continue to do great things in my life for the both of us.


look at this^^^ sentence and tell me if you see anything of interest here. Anything strike you about it? Such as?

This is where I am on May 3. So yes, I am personally doing quite well. Thanks for the kind words.

So the question- is there another way to build confidence in your value to a member of the opposite sex without trying to become a playboy? If not, is there something wrong with the path I would then choose above?


Zues,
if you think the way to build your confidence with the opposite sex is by "dating a lot of them/trying to become a playboy", then you are missing a big piece and imo, doing the opposite of what is needed.

Having a deep, healthy, adult relationship will build your confidence.

but "Dating a lot" means what? Dinner? Talking? And That will make you feel more attractive?

OR do you mean Going to bed, getting praised for your "performance" and then what? Dating others?

(Sorry if I misunderstood but the "performance" comment comes b/c you seem to want to know you are good in bed, and you also seem to think the only way to know that is by bedding a lot more women.

But see, being a "good lover" means you welcome feedback from a woman you trust/love about HER needs and wants, which vary with women.

A guy might be exactly what a woman wants in a lover, but the next woman may feel quite differently. The only surefire thing that makes for a good lover is a man who wants to please his woman and does his best to do so, in a healthy respectful way. That means taking "Not tonight" as a reasonable choice, not as an affront, or something to resent or punish a person for).

If you just move on dating someone else and keep Moving on so you can "date more", Won't you just feel like a cad?

Sorry but I'm not really clear on what your belief is here or what the goal would be.

If it is to build your confidence, that sounds 1) as if you are using women to overcome your insecurities again- which means you'd just be doing more of the same, which is the problem you are supposedly remedying; AND

2) sounds like an ineffective plan anyhow.

Tell me how you would feel better about yourself if you date "a lot of women" and yet can't manage an actual adult relationship with any of them?

How would this^^ lead you to being a better partner in a healthy adult relationship?

Yikes, I'm confused.

I think there was a misunderstanding. I was replying to those suggesting that was a good plan, stating I DIDN’T want to do that. I thought I was pretty clear. I agree with you that healthy, adult relationships are the best way to gain confidence. It just seems a lot of guys talk about building confidence by getting with a lot of women and I was talking about how that wouldn't work for me. I don't want to be told I'm good in bed by anyone except for my next (and hopefully last) woman.

I also wasn’t sure what you meant by asking me what stood out about that line. Was it saying "supporting me"? When I say “support me” I don’t mean make me feel ok about myself, or carry me. I mean be “supportive”. To me this means having my back, rooting me on, knowing my goals and being a cheerleader as I fight my dragons in life. My W wasn’t supportive in this way, it is just something I hoped for. For example, if I’m not using porn I’d prefer to have a woman empathizing with how difficult it can be to quit, rather than criticizing me that I have wrestled this issue at all. That’s what I mean by supportive. I don’t know what’s wrong with that.



25, I didn't go into my parents and my relationship with them. And I have much more to think about here. Porn isn't a big deal to me in the sense I don't want a woman that watches it, or even is on board with me watching it as I am hoping this is gone from my life. I just want to be ok for being who I am. I don't know who that will be down the road. I think I'm trying to figure out what is years of habit versus my natural self. But I'll keep going, and I have much more time ahead. Thank you for the time it took to reply. I'll post more once I've had a chance to revisit this another time.

[Bob723]

Hey Zues,

I'm so happy that you opened up to us! One step at a time.

Isn't 25 amazing????

Bob

[Pyrite]

I think there was a misunderstanding. I was replying to those suggesting that was a good plan, stating I DIDN’T want to do that. I thought I was pretty clear. I agree with you that healthy, adult relationships are the best way to gain confidence. It just seems a lot of guys talk about building confidence by getting with a lot of women and I was talking about how that wouldn't work for me. I don't want to be told I'm good in bed by anyone except for my next (and hopefully last) woman.

One of "those" Z is referring to might be me. Although I never even thought of multiple women my only point was "ok so you aren't actively looking but I don't know that you should necessarily actively NOT look" if that makes any sense.

I dont know exactly how you feel, I know I don't feel "ready", I was just pointing out that this will probably always be the case. At some point we will have to put into practice what we think we have "learnt" even if it is only to realise that we haven't learnt anything at all. But we might also find that we have learned, and we have been repeating the final year of high school over and over again. How do we know when we are ready to move on to college where indeed we WILL learn a whole lot more.

[Wonka]

Zeus,

I would like to piggyback 25's comments here and chime in with my own thoughts. I enjoy how she breaks down things into understandable POV.

So the question- is there another way to build confidence in your value to a member of the opposite sex without trying to become a playboy? If not, is there something wrong with the path I would then choose above?

Zues,
if you think the way to build your confidence with the opposite sex is by "dating a lot of them/trying to become a playboy", then you are missing a big piece and imo, doing the opposite of what is needed.

Having a deep, healthy, adult relationship will build your confidence.

but "Dating a lot" means what? Dinner? Talking? And That will make you feel more attractive?

OR do you mean Going to bed, getting praised for your "performance" and then what? Dating others?

Quote from 25: Having a deep, healthy, adult relationship will build your confidence.

That FIRST important healthy adult relationship is with YOURSELF. Get to know thyself. Fall in love with yourself. Honor your own values and principles.

From that point forward, you will have developed your own inner confidence. Then it will manifest outwardly in how you treat women. Then you will not have to measure it by some "performance" for it will eventually fall off in old age. Then what do you have left??!

I know MANY, MANY heterosexual men who are not into porn having a positive self-worth and self-confidence that have healthy long-term Rs/Ms. They also do not need to be a player to get that self-confidence.

Joel Osteen has only known 1 woman in the carnal sense in his entire life: his own wife, Victoria. Look at him!

I am wondering about men's escape into porn. I cannot help but wonder about their own self-worth when porn consumes their thoughts and actions.

Porn objectifies women. Just a sex thing to play with.

There's no true emotional intelligence involved right there.

Emotional IQ is lacking in men who are deep into porn in my opinion. Their IRL relationships suffer as a result due to their distorted views of women.

Like with all unhealthy addictions, men really need to break off from porn completely as the first step in their journey in acquiring higher emotional IQ.

Hey...to keep things real here. I have viewed porn a few times back when I was in college so I have a good sense of what is actually played out on the celluloid screen.