Whoa, I'm not suffering much anymore! Now what?!?

[SunnyB]

I didn't make this very clear but I meant that women in their 30s are generally not as self assured and self aware as those of us a little more mature. I know I wasn't. It takes some experience to figure out who we are and what we want.

[Fogg]

Powerful stuff Zues. I just posted something in my own thread where I realize W may never see the pain shes caused me, and then I read this. This thought never crossed my mind before she might even if we reconciled. I always assumed part of our reconciliation process(If it happened) was her acceptance of what shes done, and really understanding how much shes hurt me. I guess I have been keeping score and didn't realize it, or maybe right now I still want to keep score. I know I'm not ready to forgive, not while the damage is still being done. One day yes, just not right now.

I also never considered learning SO much about relationships by going through this could actually sabotage my next. Lots to think about from your post, lots. Thanks for the perspective.

[Pyrite]

hi Sunny,

must've been me who was unclear. I interpreted it as you intended. I totally agree. I am in my 40's and only now getting because my life turned upsidedown.

-Py

[Zues126]

Thanks Sunny. I don't believe in fairy tales but do think there will be some joy down the road.

It's funny, this came about because I have a good friend that is 23 and just moving in with his girlfriend, recently pregnant. He is super analytic and trying to do everything right, so he is starting lots of R talks, trying to discuss needs, plans, etc. She has been distant. He was starting to panic about her lack of engagement, and questioning her commitment and love for him. Cliff notes, I explained about the 'passion trap' push/pull dynamics, told him that people work on their R's in different ways, and that he needed to back off for a bit, give back 80% of what she was in terms of DISCUSSION (not in terms of other love acts), but to feel free to do all the planning and strategizing he wanted to on his own. Instead of joint pre-M counceling, I told him just to get his own IC. Takes one to tango!

This is what lead me to realize that not all M's are naturally fulfilling in every area. I think the key is to continue to be yourself, GAL, meet your own needs...not that sacrificing for your M is bad, because it is great! But because taking away the things that you use to meet your own needs puts MORE PRESSURE ON THE M as there are now more needs it has to fulfill! I'm thinking the answer is to meet as many needs as possible outside your M, but then still make your M your number one priority and sacrifice to show your partner they are the tops.

Point is, it got me thinking about these things.

Py, you're right. I will never be ready in my mind. When I gamble playing pool I always feel like it will be a super test...yet I have like a 90%+ win rate. Usually by the time I feel like "gosh, I don't know, I might be up for this fight" I get in the ring and am so overprepared I blow my opponent off the table. That goes for most of what I do.

In some ways that fear is good because it drives me to record levels of preparation, and that is usually why I do well. But you're right. If that's REALLY what it took to make a M work, no one would be married!

More and more I'm recognizing I can do this. I'll hold out for a woman that is confident and loving enough to choose to meet my needs, not one that is weak and crippled enough I can try to force her to. I do believe it.

In time...:) Thanks all!

[gan]

Dude, have you read the Schnarch stuff yet or what? That ^^^ was like a direct quote. Seriously you are going to love it...

[gan]

Thanks Gan, I figured. It's funny, hearing that from someone that used to be "enemy camp" from the point of view I had in my M...it's truly uplifting, and gives me a lot of hope that if we can find this level of mutual goodwill and admiration- well, maybe M is possible. Especially when we can keep the communication strong because I can tell you it's been very valuable to me. Thanks for the help along the path!

Hey, no worries. That bold bit though? That's pretty toxic stuff. Maybe that explains why all went silent on my thread when we picked up on this topic. Maybe everyone on the forum now sees me as the enemy camp But back to you, I'm sure you can see it now, but that ^^^ attitude would have been a pretty challenging for your W to deal with. Not exactly going to make her want to make sexy time with you. You've gotta keep working through that, just like I need to keep working through my triggers (some of which still get a little tugged when I read your posts...nothing to do with you BTW, all to do with me and whatever head trash I forgot to take out).

[Zues126]

Yeah Gan, I joke about painful stuff. "Enemy camp" was a joke that had a grain of truth because it represented the gap between understanding, and how when you're in an R and suffering it's easy to see your spouse as an opponent, and see their views as being the problem...this view did play a big role in the destruction of my M. It didn't help EITHER of us. I made her the enemy so to speak. She didn't feel like making sexy time, and now we are divorcing. There are no winners in a marital battle.

So I joke about it, and laugh at myself for my failures. Not vindictively, but out of compassion. Like how sometimes watching someone make a mistake you know they are about to make is funny, not because their pain is funny, but because it's so predictable and you've been there before. It's like, lol, we're all such flawed humans! You have to either laugh or cry.

I'll read the book, I promise!

[Zues126]

Oh, completely agree about working through things. That really was behind my prior few posts. I've learned a lot, but my ultimate test is "if I was in my M again, could I do better now?" Better in a few senses:

Not resorting to controlling behavior to try to get what I wanted.
Not allowing resentment to fester to where I lost my good feelings for my W.
Being able to accept who she is, what she is able to give, and find my own happiness within an imperfect M.

Our dynamic was broken. One of us would be hurt with our encounters. Either I'd be hurt from rejection, or she'd be hurt by feeling cooerced.

The reason I still insist I have a long ways to go is that while I believe I could do better in that spot, I'm not sure about all three.

I know I could stop controlling behavior. I know I could stop being abusive. I just KNOW it.

Could I find a way to find acceptance and happiness with circumstances as they were? Could I continue to love her and avoid that from being swallowed by resentment?

Maybe that's not important. Maybe if I did a better job on my end, she would have been more free to be more giving. Maybe just stopping the controlling and trying to find acceptance is enough, and that things will grow from there to where I get enough of my needs met I can survive emotionally.

My STBX is capable of change, but as she is I don't know if it would've worked. The same way there are some serial cheaters, or alcoholics...I'm not sure she was really in a place where she'd have been receptive to understanding my needs, no matter how I behaved, no matter how I accepted what I had. I think it's possible that my acceptance would allow her to think there was no problem, and I can see how my feelings could follow that of a WAH in that regard. Instead of walking, I tried to control her or "wake her up".

Could I just accept being deeply wounded for many years, hoping she'd change someday, or if nothing else being willing to die in a miserable M and knowing I stood by my commitment? That's what I was trying to do, which is why we stopped talking. I didn't want to leave, I gave up on her, I just couldn't find a way to interact without causing each other pain so we stopped.

No, I'm not ready for a new R. I do need more time to work through these things. True, I can try to find a partner that is more mature, empathetic, and collaborative, and I can keep growing...that's the EASY part. The hard part is knowing that there will be some things in my next M that probably make me feel this way. If it's not sex, maybe it's something else I took for granted in my last R. Maybe my next W becomes alcoholic, or a gambler, or is highly critical or angry. Am I ready to accept what God has in store for me? Or do I feel entitled to more, and through that entitlement will stem resentment, control, and future M failures?

Day at a time. Grow. Relive. Pray. Trust. I think I can get there with some help.

[Zues126]

Last thought on this and then I have to STFU and go to work.

I go to extremes a alot.

I picture myself in a terrible, resentment filled, sex starved M, with a W that lacks compassion and maturity...and I ask myself if I can find happiness there. It's like I'm fighting a battle, and I'm picturing myself surrounded with no allies.

But I'll have allies. She'll show me love in many ways. There will be warm moments. So it won't be "me trying to find happiness in a world void of love and filled with abusive actions". It will be me trying to find acceptance in a world with many good things, and some that aren't the way I would wish them to be.

That's a lot like life. I'm handling life. I think I can learn to handle a M next time around...

[Pyrite]

Again with same line(me and you) Z - dont get me wrong the tables could be turned here and you giving me this comeback after I voice the same "self-doubt".

Your questions of yourself are all valid. All I am saying is that there is only one way to answer them, and you know what that is. Also - IF ONLY I had've asked these questions of myself before. IF ONLY I had've even considered these questions could and should be asked. How many prospective partners out there do you think have asked these questions of themselves? How many of them do you think should have? Have been in the position we are in, or on the other side, and medicated their way out?

I am concerned that WE are rising our expectations in this respect. I envisage getting into a new R and my partner not open to this kind of discussion should it ever arise. We are in a minority I suspect. But not in the sense being emotionally ill equipped to deal with Rs, if etc. In the sense that we are pulling everything out of it that we can.

I am looking forward to an adult relationship. But I think the majority of adults are carrying all these flaws we are trying to resolve. Prospective partners are likely to have medicated their way out of similar R breakdowns and run straight to them if/when problems arise again. Should we then impose our "much better" way to grow out of them? Wouldn't that be "like" controlling again.

Maybe we can hope for the right person, that is either naturally equipped or has DBed their way out of this crap. I do think there is a chance of finding this. As SunnyB hinted at, more "experienced" partners might exhibit this, which for me now is a more important quality than those I considered 10 years ago.

In summary Z, the fact that you are even asking these questions suggests to me that you are already a cut above. I'm not suggesting you should start looking for Mrs Z - just dont NOT look. Nothing would make me happier than hearing you post that you have met someone that stirred feelings in you that you thought were academically dissolved and gone - well - maybe if i posted the same i would be pretty happy about that too.