It's a nightmare. Wake me up 2

[koalada]

Aside from the reality that she's probably on to you doing all that monitoring (and it's SO much more noticeable than you realize),

and aside from how needy it looks,

it also makes ANY changes you are demonstrating, Look Fake

(as if they are "tactics" just to get her back) so that IF you two reconcile,

you will of course revert to your old ways - b/c your "changes" are Not real or permanent.

Do you get what I'm saying? In other words, you're hurting your cause with all this monitoring and getting so frutrqtied with HER reactions to changes you are supposedly making -

b/c

IF YOUR CHANGES WERE AUTHENTIC,

(& YOU DID THEM TO IMPROVE YOURSELF & TO PLEASE YOURSELF) -

YOU WOULD NOT NOTICE OR CARE WHAT HER REACTION WAS.... never mind whether she is "warmer" or

SAYS ILYBINILWY

b/c you're not supposed to listen to ANYTHING she says and only half of what she does.

I know you have heard all these^^ "mantras" before.

Start applying them to yourself.

I am conflicted with looking for "sign posts" and "let her do whatever she wants to do" AND change my own life for myself. It feels like emotional plate spinning.

MWD is talking about "sign posts", that I have to look for. Btw. I have goals. I have just forgot them.

*I want to celebrate our 21st anniversarry as couple.
*Me and W are talking about "saving the M"
*We start a therapy with the goal of becoming strong as a couple.
*W puts the D-plans on hold

The sign posts I am looking for:
*She would look out for opportunities to spend time with me.
*She would talk about herself without talking about R
*She would call or send a text, just to say Hello
*She would question her decision
*She would ask about my life without searching for traces, that help her case.
*She would mention differences, that she might have noticed.
*She would not avoid me.

All those signals were more clear, when I have lived apart from her. From time to time I still see those small changes, but her mood changes everyday.

What do you think about the goals and the sign posts?

And should I ignore everything else she says and does?
Can you understand my confusion?

I understand. So you have to handle being detached differently.

The "rules" are merely guidelines that are meant as GUIDES. When Sandi wrote them she mentions that some won't apply and no one needs all of them.

If your issue was not being connected with her at a deep level (not listening to her) and lacking empathy or she felt that you lacked it there are things you can do and should do regardless of the marriage.

ALL people want to feel heard and validated. So LISTEN to her.

Re-cap what she tells you so you know you got it right. "W, let me see if I got this right, you're saying the children hate the basketball coach BUT They love the team -- so they only want to play on the team he's NOT coaching, correct? I don't know how that affects driving them to practice, etc. How do YOU feel about that?"

(That ^^one is fairly easy yet you'd be surprised how many people do NOT re-cap b/c they think their time is so important that they cannot verify what their spouse said, let alone show they care about it.)

When she speaks to you, LOOK at her and don't be distracted

By example, ---IF your wife were to look you in the eye and tell you that she is "in love" with you, you would probably be very moved.

What if she told you she is "in love" with you, while she's looking at her watch??

See the difference? Same words very different meanings. LISTEN ACTIVELY

As a social worker, I naturally use this approach quiet often. In times of conflicts, it is important, that I understand the problem of the people in order to get a suitable solution. It is one of my 180's, I am working on.

ALSO AND THIS IS KEY

IF she revises an event and makes it all your fault, if that is AT ALL accurate

(like if you really did drop the ball & cause some of her pain)

THEN YOU SAY

"W, I remember that & I'm sorry I hurt you. If I had it all to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently." Say this sincerely.

IF SHE revises an incident way out of proportion or you truly really do NOT recall it at all

do Not argue with you (you won't win, you'll just confirm her reasons for leaving)

you say

"Wow I sure don't recall it that way, BUT I'm sorry you were hurt. If I could do it all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently.""

This ^^ response does Not escalate; it does NOT lead to another argument and in fact it usually diffuses a situation (so use it that way)

it's honest, AND it shows that you would like to change some things - which is a change in itself. It's Not the time for you to say "and YOU have to change too"...you say nothing about HER; just you.

And it's not a doormat answer either. I'd memorize it if I were you.

FTR, there was an event I simply had NO recall of and I kind of thought h was going nuts.

In fact I was so mad that I almost called him a liar to his face, but right before I did, as I muttered about it, my d9 heard me.

She piped in that SHE recalled the event, and had details that finally jogged my memory (maybe I blocked it out??)

but man, our recall of a lot of these incidents is NOT that great - so we cannot always assume our WAS is nuts.

Just saying...

Thank you for sharing your failures with me. You are right. It is very tempting for me, to think in the categories of "right and wrong", "guilty and not guilty". I still have the score card in my hands. It is easier to blame W for everything and label her "crazy", than to look at myself, swallow my pride and work on myself.

This^^ is valuable Data!! Keep gathering it like you are a spy getting "intel" on a recon mission.

How can I recognise the valuable bits, without getting sidetracked by her other words and deeds?

I wish you'd hire a DB coach (what are you exactly waiting for, just so I know)? They'd tell you how important it is to listen for clues.

Mine was a Godsend!

She saId when h was sharing about himself or his work or anything NOT related to our marriage

that I should "Listen like a Lover" and validate and actively listen,

and Do Not judge, do not advise or 'Fix" (men in particular do this a lot, and often the woman wants to be HEARD and NOT repaired).

When a man makes a suggestion to a woman about a painful problem, SOMETIMES it comes off as if the man thinks he's fixed it now, so why is she STILL talking about it?

"Why is she whining now? I TOLD HER she could quit the job"...(never mind that they need the money or she loves the people or the job or loves the prestige, )

when a man makes a 2 sentence suggestion to an emotional problem his woman has,

to most women, it does NOT feel as if he is showing he cares.

The priority is her airing her feelings to someone who is listening and cares. 9/10 of the time she'll solve it herself after being heard.

So LISTEN to her and do not fix it - and do not make it about you.

Make sense?

Iam definitly guilty of this one. I am the one who thinks "do this and that and voila...problem solved". Because I have felt respnsible for offering solutions, not joining a "coffee klatsch" (do you have this phrase in your country?). It is painful for me, to sit and listen, without offering "mature advice". At my job, I can do this and I am usually good with detaching. With my W it is different.

And regarding the DB-Coach...I can not afford it yet.

Obviously if she asks you for something, that is different. If it involves the kids or her safety, do it without hemming and hawing.

.

Can you explain the "hemming and hawing" to me? Does it mean "immediatly", without waiting?

Otherwise just run it by here and we can give feedback if you want.

And I do appreciate your patience and your time.

...you wanting to manipulate the outcome of this,

and while that is true of most DBers, to an extent

your mistake is the constant deflection from simply wanting to be the best man you can and ought to be

for the sake of self actualization (meaning, for the sake of being your best)

without regard to the path your wife is on.

Period.

I would love to control the outcome. In the beginning, I have thought about DB as a magical pill. I just do the right things and everything will fall into places. Well, I was wrong about it.

It feels strange to work on myself in a situation, while my M is on the brink of divorce. It feels like driving by a car accident, but as a reaction I just turn on the radio and drive on. Looking for a nice way to spend the evening.

Paradoxically that detachment from the results,

i.e. the leaving it in God's hands, (or the universe's or whatever you call it)

happens to be the most likely way of re-attracting your spouse back to you.

When I truly GAL & finally could Detach

I did not care nearly as much about what my h was doing or thinking or feeling

b/c my life was about ME and my children, being content (and I was more content and continue to be)

and so, when he had his awakening and wanted back into the family, I was hesitant.

So Stop challenging her choices and she might stop defending them so much; she might even begin to look at them.

But your task is Not about her or what she does.

The car accident picture again, combined with the need to save, repair, fix and change her. Can I feel free to make myself the priority? Without looking like a jerk?

Can you tell us what YOU wish to work on in your life starting NOW?

Time to Get back on your path.

I would love to live with self respect and dignity, becoming more stable emotionally and to be thankful for every moment of my life.

So far part II of my reply. It might sound a bit messy. It is quiet likely that I do not get the point of some posts, because of the process of translation and it is even more likely that I do not get the point of some posts, because I am a stubborn guy, who wants the world to massage his ego.