Kramer's Journey

[Kramer]

GAL update:

I just got finished spending a week in Newport Beach with my wife's niece, 2 of her friends, my daughter and her husband and child. We had a great time at the beach all week. My wife and I book this trip for Spring Break every year for the past 5 years. It was booked and paid for 6 months ago. I debated not going, but why should I let WW's actions dictate my behavior. Even though it was bittersweet without my wife, I'm glad that I went. I think I will continue this annual tradition on my own, and any of my children or grandchildren are welcome to join me.

That does bring up an interesting interaction that took place with wife last month. I had just got back from Maui (another trip booked 6 months earlier for wife), and she said that she never would have gone without me. So let me get this straight: you filed for divorce and are in a relationship with OM, and you are upset that I went on vacation without you? Weird, to say the least. Keep in mind that she loves to travel, and we did so often. She tells me that OM doesn't like to travel, but who knows If that is true?

[labug]

I read your response to me on our previous thread. The post I read about the negotiation aspect didn't clearly state that she refused to negotiate.

Be careful about mindreading.

Be who you want to be through this.

Do you know who that is?

That's your ticket off the roller coaster and to the high road.

I am confused by your post. What mindreading? I asked her to negotiate with me, and she never responded. Should I have contacted her a second or third time with the same message? I am so confused about communication in general. Such a fine line between pursuing, aloofness, and healthy detachment.

I want to be the person with morals, compassion, dedication, and honesty. I do not want to be vindictive, but also need to protect myself in the legal process. I do not want to cut off all communication, but do not want to come across as needy or wimpy.

Can you help me with that?

Mindreading:

Read Cadet's response about negotiation.

and,

First, she absolutely DID NOT want to negotiate. She wanted me to take on all of the debt and keep our own retirements.

Was that her opening offer? Did you counter? Ot did she say "I'm not negotiating."

She knew that I was emotional, and have always been non-confrontational, and wanted to use that against me.

Mindreading or you know that for a fact?

I did not want to get lawyers involved. My wife filed papers and had me served. I had to formulate a response. I sent wife email asking her to sit down and mediate things, but she never responded. She was hoping (my thoughts) that I would miss response deadline and her proposals would be final by default.

You say above "my thoughts" which is you mindreading her.

When we mindread other people we usually do it from the place of what we would do or feel were we in their shoes. At that point you're no longer dealing with a real person, you're dealing with the person you've created in your mind.

I bring this up because you say one thing but do another. Being honest with yourself is a good place to start. In some way you wanted to move this along, so you contacted and attorney and didn't say "File for extension, I need more time to think." You said "Respond" or words to that effect.

In terms of your marriage it might not matter a hill of beans at his point but when we react out of emotion we often end up in a place we don't want to be. Again, slow down and think.

My initial consultation with lawyer ended with his advice to do this ourselves, since it is so straightforward. Her non-response to that proposal is what led to my action.

As far as slowing down, that's what I am trying to do. I do not want this divorce, and have told my lawyer to take his time with the process, while not impeding things or causing any legal issues.

What does "while not impeding things" mean to you?

[labug]

and she said that she never would have gone without me. So let me get this straight: you filed for divorce and are in a relationship with OM, and you are upset that I went on vacation without you?

Did she say she was upset or just that she wouldn't have gone without you?

Those are two very different things.

Is that you mindreading her?

[Kramer]

Labug,

I see what you mean by mind reading.

Regarding the lawyer, I had to file a response within 30 days or her demands would be honored by default. She did not respond to my request for an extension. I suppose I could have asked the same question 2 or 3 times, but wouldn't that constitute pursual or harassment? Keep in mind that she snuck down to courthouse and filed for divorce without consulting with me. She HAS told me that her position is non-negotiable, and also did not include her retirement on income and expenses financials. She was hoping that I would overlook it. I suppose that is mind reading as well, although I doubt it.

Regarding the trips and her response that she wouldn't have gone without me, I suppose that I did read into her statement. I was hoping that she would miss me, but that appears to be wishful thinking on my part. Again, it APPEARS that she is quite comfortable moving ahead in her new life without me.

For the record, I don't want this divorce. I would at least like to try to fix things, but that's not going to happen. By filing divorce, she initiated a legal action that requires prompt and timely responses. I will protect myself with legal representation, but I am in no hurry to complete the process.

[Kramer]

Also Labug,

In California, I cannot file for extension. I have to respond within 30 days unless the petitioner gives an extension. She did not do so.

I will admit to mind reading, but I do so based on my 17 year history with her. I'd like to think that I know her behaviors and quirks. However, to be fair, I didn't see this affair and divorce, so how well did I really know her?

It does seem like a paradox. I'm supposed to take her at her word when she communicates, and not mind read, yet she has done nothing but lie regarding the deceit of her affair.

[labug]

Regarding the lawyer, I had to file a response within 30 days or her demands would be honored by default. She did not respond to my request for an extension. I suppose I could have asked the same question 2 or 3 times, but wouldn't that constitute pursual or harassment? Keep in mind that she snuck down to courthouse and filed for divorce without consulting with me. She HAS told me that her position is non-negotiable, and also did not include her retirement on income and expenses financials. She was hoping that I would overlook it. I suppose that is mind reading as well, although I doubt it.

I ask questions because I haven't found the answers in what you've already written. Granted I haven't read every word of your threads but sometimes clarification is called for. I hadn't read previously that you requested an extension.

I didn't say or imply that you should ask again, I asked if you had requested an extension. I could come here and pat you on the back and agree with everything you say or do but is that really what you want? Do questions stir up a little anger in you? You get defensive and that's usually a sign to look deeper.

So brass tacks, you're W is in an active affair and has moved out and filed for D.

The best thing you can do is say adios, amiga, go no contact, keep yourself intact and figure out how to make things different in your life. As you said in some of your early posts, you both let the marriage slide.

What happened in your first marriage?

What did you learn from that marriage break-up?

What are you learning now?

About the paradox, how does mindreading help you? What purpose does it serve?

[Kramer]

It may come across as defensiveness in this medium, but I assure you that it is more frustration and ignorance, compounded by a desire to "do something now". I welcome open and honest communication regarding this whole process. I want to learn from this and be a better person, with or without my wife. I sincerely appreciate everyone's input and recommendations.

[Cadet]

it is more frustration and ignorance, compounded by a desire to "do something now".

Quite natural reaction - IMHO.

Ignorance can be solved by - Knowledge is Power.

Do something now might be as simple as learning that
DOING NOTHING sometimes = DOING SOMETHING.

It takes an ACTION in your current state to DO NOTHING.
Hence it IS doing something!

[Kramer]

So brass tacks, you're W is in an active affair and has moved out and filed for D.

The best thing you can do is say adios, amiga, go no contact, keep yourself intact and figure out how to make things different in your life. As you said in some of your early posts, you both let the marriage slide.
And that's exactly what I am trying to do. Let the lawyers handle the divorce proceedings, while working on my issues. I realize that I need to change my bad behaviors and actions in order to become a better person, even if my marriage cannot be saved.

What happened in your first marriage?
Karma is a b*tch. My first wife constantly belittled me and said that she could do better than me. She was emotionally labile and very condascending. I had an affair, filed for divorce, and left the marriage. I hurt her deeply, and swore that I would never do that again in the future.

When I was younger, I had a horrible relationship with my stepfather. He was verbally and physically abusive, and I became very self sufficient and emotionally introverted. I kept my feelings inside as much as possible. I also had to take care of my mother as a teenager. She had end stage cancer, and it fell on me to take her to chemo and physically assist her. She became my focus, and then she died. I ended up putting up walls and continuing to hide my feelings.

When my current wife and I got together, we made a vow to never commit adultery. If either one of us felt the urge, then we were supposed to tell the other one, and work on our issues. As you can see in my sitch, I received the same treatment that I gave out nearly 20 years ago.

What did you learn from that marriage break-up?I became a more honest and caring person. However, I still kept my emotions close to the vest and was selfish with my feelings. On the surface, I was confident, self sufficient, and in control of my life. The truth was (is) that I was (am) lonely, emotionally distant, and fearful of commitment.

What are you learning now?That I never dealt with my loneliness and sense of loss from my mother. That I need to be open and more giving with my emotions. That I need to stop blaming others when they don't respond how I think they should. I need to worry about my own actions, and stop trying to influence others to do what I want.

[labug]

Now that's being honest. I'm sure you were a pride and comfort to your mother. Those experiences can shape us in ways that affect us forever, some helpful, some not so helpful. It's up to us to separate the flowers from the weeds.

The definition of karma that I ascribe to is, we keep getting the lessons we need until we get it.

You have a lot of work to do and none of it involves your STBX. That's very freeing. How are you doing that work? What's your plan?

If you're defensive, I'm OK with that. The problem is, we get that way when something is too close to the truth, a truth we're usually not ready to admit. If we ignore or deny it we may miss one of those karma lessons.

Jefe has a great thread going on the Infidelity board. Check it out.