Mozza (10) + Links to success stories

[PatientMan]

PatientMan kindly replied to my post about flirting and dating on MCS' thread. I copy it and respond here because it's less relevant for MCS and TLEE86.

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PatientMan: Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective. It is certainly useful for me and all who think about this and there are several on these boards. You have clarity about this topic.

I get the sense that we will never see eye to eye on this, so it is probably better not to reply to each comment until we find some sort of agreement. Let me then respond in a more general way.

I am still married to my WAW and promised to be faithful to her in my wedding vows. I meant it and I abode by it throughout our relationship, even when she offered me to be unfaithful in return for her 2009 indiscretion. So why do I feel free to be unfaithful now? Because my WAW has broken the M contract and moved away from it. This pledge was between us, not between me and a piece of paper and not between me and God because I'm not religious. The day that my WAW was unfaithful, in 2009, I did not feel freed from my commitment to her because she wanted to make the relationship work (we only got married the following year). The difference is that this time my WAW has completely and unambiguously freed herself from our mutual commitment. She left me for an OM and now lives with him. She is only waiting to D because here it takes one year - in other jurisdictions it would have been over in 30 days. She's given me the green light to be with other women on the day she left home, saying that "all options are open but we shouldn't live our lives according to this".

Women, especially WAW, are not attracted to a man who pledges to be faithful to their wedding vows when they act the way that my WAW does. I don't see strength in being faithful to my WAW, in fact I see weakness. It would not be self-respect for me to wait on a woman who has rejected me so clearly and is living a new life with an OM. In fact, I would be a mockery of a man by pledging to be faithful to her under these circumstances. Holding on to your promises is not an absolute and circumstances change. Not being the first to break a contract is important, but people will walk circles around us if they know that they can commit us for longer than they do. In this case, I'm not one to live an open marriage. Should she want to be back, it would be another change in circumstances. Should I have met someone "better" in the meantime, this is a risk that she's chosen to take at BD.

By the way, I don't know that I'll have to sleep with other women to feel self-respect again. The mere fact that I feel free to do it goes a long way. Taking action has been a real challenge for me and I've avoided situations where I had a chance to flirt. But this is not about my actions anyway, but my mindset and intentions.

Notice that I only consider this course of action under the extreme circumstances of my sitch. In cases where there's been no cheating or there is still some sort of mutual commitment, or even early into an extreme sitch, I don't think it's appropriate.

Do I want to have fun by sleeping with other women? Yes. Fun is nothing to be ashamed of. I plan on being very clear about my intentions. I wouldn't be the first one to have sex with people without spending the rest of my life with them, in fact this is how a vast majorities of coupling occurs. I also acknowledge my sexual needs without shame and frankly I'm looking forward to the touch of a woman. Reproduction is a carnal desire like hunger and thirst and is experienced by all forms of life.

I hope this clarifies and especially that it helps those who struggle to come up with their own answer for their sitch.

I understand that you think a year is too long to wait without moving forward in some form of a relationship with a woman. I disagree with it (most people need far longer than a year to be ready for another relationship), but I do understand it.

To your vows, you likely said something along the lines of "in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer, in good times and bad".

Yes?

I am also presuming that when you uttered those words, or ones like them, there was no qualifying statement or clause attached to them. No, "Unless you break them first" or "until you cheat on me twice" or "until we feel differently"...correct?

You spoke your vows to your spouse, in the presence of the people in attendance, and - most importantly - to yourself. You said you would do x, y, z. Period.

So while you may feel justified, and while most people will understand, it still doesn't change the fact that you are consciously choosing to betray your own word because it suits you and is generally acceptable.

Again, if that is the kind of man you are and want to be, it is absolutely a free country and you are certainly entitled to live it within the legally and socially permissible framework, but I am talking about something better. I will never promise it is the easy way, but I can speak to its virtue.

For example, let's say down the road you are ready to marry someone new. She will certainly know you are a good man (otherwise she wouldn't be marrying you, right?), and she will most certainly understand why you chose to move on from your commitment to your current wife while still in the bounds of your marriage, believing you are a respectable man whose word can be relied upon.

But, in the back of her mind may be the thought, "He says he will do this, but he has proven that in the past he is willing to go back on what he says when it suits him. I wonder what that means for me?"

Alternatively, you have the opportunity to offer your future bride an indescribable gift. The gift that no matter what is going on, no matter what other people think, no matter what is acceptable or not, she will KNOW that YOU ARE A MAN OF YOUR WORD. She will be able to see that from how you conducted yourself in your previous marriage that was unsuccessful. You were willing to delay temporary and fleeting happiness for something worth much more! And what a better foundation for a marriage!

If you do not see a valuable difference between those two futures, then I am of little service to you.

To weakness?

First, it is only weak if you think it is weak. Personally I believe it to be far weaker to succumb to temptation and impatience, unable to postpone desires, jumping into a new relationship (however short, carnal, and understood by both parties) deluding yourself into thinking that this new relationship will magically fix your problems or ease your pain (rather than delay it).

I believe it to be weak to have no other means to command respect than to 'show' the spouse (or former-spouse) how you've moved on by engaging in other relationships. That is - in fact - the OPPOSITE of moving on.

Being dependent on others for your happiness is WEAK. Being healthy, happy, and whole on your own is STRENGTH.

Again, if you do not see a valuable difference in those two, then I am of little service to you.

However, in order to reach the conclusion for your justification, you must used the flawed logic that there are only two options:

1) A doormat who never has sex with anyone else
2) A cheater who won't wait for his divorce to be final to have sex with anyone else

Given those two options, I can see why you would pick option #2. I disagree with it, but I understand it.

What you are missing are alternate options, most notably:

3) Don't be a doormat, but remain faithful while married
4) Pursue divorce and, when it is dissolved, pursue whatever relationship you think is best

I assure you it is possible to keep your word and not be a doormat. You said "Women, especially WAW, are not attracted to a man who pledges to be faithful to their wedding vows when they act the way that my WAW does."

I have to ask, are you seriously arguing that women find it attractive when a man cheats on his wife because his wife has been cheating on him? That's what reels them in?

Regardless, I also have to ask: how would anyone know what you do on your personal time? Are you planning on keeping your W up to date on your sexual encounters? If she isn't kept current with regards to your sex life, how would that possibly be any variable that impacted the equation of how she respects you?

It should be obvious to you now that what you do with your personal life has no bearing on how your wife respects you. And if she happens to be a woman who passes judgement on you because you don't flaunt relationships in her face to (fallaciously) prove to her that you have moved on, then that says a great deal about HER lack of character, and nothing about your respectability. I can't imagine caring about the respect of that type of person anyway.

Don't you want to be a man whose word is oak? And don't you want to be with a woman who values that kind of a man? Doesn't that sound better than just saying whatever you want, knowing you can go back on it whenever it is convenient?

Regarding your 'sexual needs': Don't piddle on my boots and tell me it's raining. You 'need' food. You 'need' water. Without those two you will eventually die. Without sex you will not eventually die.

While the idea of an extended period of time without sex is not a palatable one (to ANYone), let's not pretend that it is something it is not. You are not having sex out of biological necessity, a matter of your survival. Again, as with your ~"there are only these two options" flawed logic, you are either blinding yourself to the truth because you want to justify poor behavior, or - even worse - you actually believe what you have written.

To the former: I hope you take the blinders off and make responsible, informed decisions that aren't based on lies. That is not to suggest that my conclusions are the only way to live life, I just sincerely do hope your decisions are well thought out for your own health and well being.

To the latter: I hope you found my post informative. Let me know if you have questions.

Lastly, and by far most importantly, is I have absolutely no desire to get into internet debates with anyone. That is NOT what this is. I wrote all of this out for one reason:

I see someone who has been rejected by his spouse, is hurting, and is on the brink of ringing a bell that can't be un-rung. I am here only of SINCERE intentions. I get that this post may be heavy-handed, but when I see someone lying to himself to justify behavior, it sends off all kinds of red flags in my mind. A general rule of thumb is if you have to lie to get what you want, then it's probably a bad idea to go after what you think you want. I not attempting to force you to adopt my moral code, I am only attempting to hold up a mirror so you are sure you are not violating your own.

Be sure your decisions are based on whole and good information. Just because your wife is acting a certain way doesn't obligate YOU to act a certain way in retaliation. Your code of conduct is not dependent upon anyone else. There is another way.

As always, it is your call. All the best!

-PM