yet another hopeless tale

[newpand]

Yes, I'm afraid you're right. No... sadly, I know you're right. Tonight she has defiantly stayed overnight at OM's place, despite knowing that this is the one thing that I asked her not to do. I say "defiantly" because I woke up at 2am and sent her the message "Are you still at [OM's]?" and she replied the one-word "Yup!"

This is not something she normally says. "Yes," or "I am," perhaps, but not "Yup!" The only explanation is defiance.

I hadn't intended to press the issue. I had intended to just ignore her while I job-hunted, but her behavior has crossed the line from thoughtless to deliberate cruelty. I will not stand for this any longer.

Probably the worst part of this whole business is that I tend to have insomnia on the best night; at times like this, when I just want to slumber the hours away, it's absolutely impossible to go to sleep.

[newpand]

This morning I left early (W was still at OM's) to go to a 10-mile fast-walk meetup. Blisters notwithstanding, it was a marvelous way to relax-- at its conclusion I felt calm and sane. I then looked at my phone to discover two missed calls and a series of texts from W. The texts said (abridged):

"I decided to stay late last night [at OM's] because you didn't answer when I asked you 'why aren't you talking to me,' and then I stayed overnight because you got upset when I said I was staying late. This is what bothers me-- you told me 'go do what you want' but now you're trying to guilt me for doing it."

[an hour later, at home, I begin the conversation.]

H: You've noticed that every single week we've gone to MC we've been further apart than the week before. It almost seems like a running gag. And now we're not even talking to each other. It is definitely a vicious cycle, but I think we can reverse it. Did you want to do that?

W: No. Not at this point.

H: (surprised, but unruffled) Oh. Okay. Well then, I thought this would be a rhetorical question, but perhaps it's not: do you want to hurt me?

W: No.

H: Do you want me to not be hurt?

W: Yes.

H: Okay. This conversation is about how you can avoid hurting me. Now, I didn't answer your question because I was certain you would not hear my tone of voice over text. Once I saw your question, you noticed it took me a long time to answer it. This was because my first thought was "You block yourself behind this curtain in the morning, and then don't write me anything all day, and then stay away all night and overnight besides, and you're asking why *I'm* not talking to *you*?" That was my first thought. But my second thought was no, she was observing something, so let's look at where that came from. And that's where I realized that we've been thinking about this the wrong way. My behavior has seemed inconsistent because we've been thinking about this as needs, wants, and demands. But it's really action and consequence. And if we think of it that way you can see I am being consistent.

H: (cont'd) When you spend time with OM, loving OM, I feel abandoned, betrayed, rejected, unwanted, and hurt. I feel that you have withdrawn from me. And when I feel that, I withdraw from you, because I recognize that you are the source of my being hurt. Now, whenever I'm busy, I don't notice this hurt, because-- well, because I'm busy. So this past week, knowing you would probably want to be with him, every night I went out and kept myself busy, and it was great fun; but then, every night, I came home and you still weren't here. Which of course forced me to think about where you were.

H: (cont'd) And in this past week... on Monday you stayed out past midnight. On Tuesday you didn't talk to me in the morning, and then shut yourself away from the moment we got home until bedtime. On Wednesday you shut yourself in in the morning and then stayed out until after midnight. On Thursday you shut yourself in in the morning and then stayed out until after midnight. On Friday you shut yourself in in the morning and then didn't even come home at all. So I felt terribly hurt, every day; and, in those few short moments when we did interact, I didn't hear any of your thoughts or feelings or experiences, but instead felt demands from you to account for my whereabouts and how I'd spent my time.

W: But that's just how people have conversations, asking about each other's day.

H: Yes, I understand that. I am telling you that I felt like I was being attacked. You see, if there had been sharing of thoughts and feelings from you, I would have responded to that. But since nothing was offered to me, this felt more like an interrogation, especially because the week before you'd asked, and I'd tried to answer, but as soon as I mentioned the fact of what I'd been doing you lost interest and stopped listening.

W: But I haven't been telling you what I've been doing with him because I knew it would upset you.

H: You don't have to. It's enough just to tell me what you're thinking about, or whatever you're feeling right then.

W: I see.

H: I understand this is frustrating for you, because I am an obstacle to your having what you want from OM. When you spend time with him, you hurt me. The easiest way around that is to hate me--

W: I don't hate you.

H: Yes. Or to find things that I do wrong, because then you don't have to care. But when you don't care, then we push each other further away. Because when you spend time with him, I feel hurt and abandoned, and I naturally withdraw from you.

H: (cont'd) Now here is what I'm telling you about how to avoid hurting me. If you schedule your time with him for when I am busy, like my Monday night class, then I will not notice, and I will not feel hurt. If you spend time with him when I am home alone, especially if you stay out until midnight or later, then I will notice, and I will be hurt, and I will naturally withdraw from you.

W: But what about the other nights? Are you saying I should just sit here doing nothing?

H: Well, I'd be here too, and if we were not shutting each other out, then we could talk and be friendly with each other. Isn't that what you had in mind?

W: (sour face) No! Not at all. I don't want to give you false hope that our marriage is not ending.

H: Yes, I can see that. But I'm not worried about that. I have no illusions. I am just telling you how you can avoid hurting me.

---

This conversation went on a short while after, but not too much longer. The main points had been made. In short order she became very chatty and personable, and shared with me what she had done that morning in her gymnastics class and what had happened that past week at work. She is now actually gone for the evening, and overnight, because of a work-related event; I have not the slightest doubt that, because OM is her co-worker, she will be with him until the wee hours (or later still.. sigh), but I can hope that she will have the presence of mind to maintain some discretion amongst her co-workers and bosses.

[TenBook]

Sadpand.

You are chasing, pleading, begging. It's human to do those things. But you aren't accomplishing anything.

[newpand]

What? I thought I had drawn this straight out of the "boundaries" section of the site here-- "when you X, I feel Y; therefore, if you continue to X, you can expect Z."

I thought the point of establishing a boundary was to place the responsibility of behavior onto the WW. I didn't say to her-- at least, not intentionally-- "please don't do this." What I believed I was saying was "you can do this, but realize that my withdrawal will be the consequence."

The first problem I had with 180 was that it was a complete lie; I could cut her off, but only sullenly, so she perceived that I was trying to game her and called me out. The second problem I had was that I couldn't present consistent behavior; I was making demands, and I was fine when those demands were met, but I could neither present a brave front when they weren't met nor find any reason to "enforce" them, so I'd either break down or roll over.

Maybe it's still because I walked ten miles today-- that was such a tonic; I've got to do it again next weekend-- but right now I feel calm and confident because I don't have to worry about her behavior. Either she'll stay within the boundary, and that will alleviate my stress, or she'll break the boundary, and I will not only unapologetically cut her off but have armor against her worrying me about it.

The main reason why this seems acceptable to me is that my goal right now is not to win her back or even to make her start missing and wanting me. My goal for this and the next few weeks is just to get the stress and agony of the A out of my mind and out of my body so that I can focus on my job hunt.

I mean, if I'm wrong, and I'm fooling myself to think that I'm not chasing and begging and pleading, then please someone fill me in on how I blew it in my attempt at setting a boundary.

[newpand]

Oh wait.. perhaps you're noticing and commenting on this?

"H: Well, I'd be here too, and if we were not shutting each other out, then we could talk and be friendly with each other. Isn't that what you had in mind?"

After saying the first sentence, here, I deliberately appended "isn't that what you had in mind" knowing full well that it was NOT what she had in mind, because it actually wasn't what I had in mind either. I honestly wouldn't expect her to do anything other than chat with OM online the whole time.

[Wonka]

Hiya, SP.

I slapped my forehead when reading the exchange. It was the precise opposite of laying down boundaries. It came across as very needy and smothering which makes you come out of it as a Wet Noodle. W: 1 SP:0

I am going to whip out my glitter pink Sharpie and dissect them to aid you in seeing this exchange clearly. Alrighty...let's give it ago.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I decided to stay late last night [at OM's] because you didn't answer when I asked you 'why aren't you talking to me,' and then I stayed overnight because you got upset when I said I was staying late. This is what bothers me-- you told me 'go do what you want' but now you're trying to guilt me for doing it." What?! You talk about the OM with W? This alone puts you in a very weak position. W has a point here: you said ok to her to do whatever she wants to do and then turn around to chatise her for doing exactly that??! What are you? Her father?

[an hour later, at home, I begin the conversation.]

H: You've noticed that every single week we've gone to MC we've been further apart than the week before. It almost seems like a running gag. And now we're not even talking to each other. It is definitely a vicious cycle, but I think we can reverse it. Did you want to do that? You're talking too much here. What's the real point here? Ypu've said nothing about nothing here. What was the real point here?

W: No. Not at this point.

H: (surprised, but unruffled) Oh. Okay. Well then, I thought this would be a rhetorical question, but perhaps it's not: do you want to hurt me? Jiminey Cricket!! You sound like the 97-pound nerd who got sand kicked in his eyes by the school's jock quarterback. Plllffft. Don't show pain or your wounds to a WAW who's sucking face with the OM.

W: No.

H: Do you want me to not be hurt? STFU!! Seriously. Get your balls back.

W: Yes.

H: Okay. This conversation is about how you can avoid hurting me. Ding! Ding! You've got this all wrong. Your pain is in response to the event: your W's A. Of course, she's not going to give up the OM because he's her drug of choice at the moment. The key point here should be this: you are not okay with W's A and living in this type of marriage. Now, I didn't answer your question because I was certain you would not hear my tone of voice over text. I'm lost. What was the question you are referring to here? Once I saw your question, you noticed it took me a long time to answer it. This was because my first thought was "You block yourself behind this curtain in the morning, and then don't write me anything all day, and then stay away all night and overnight besides, and you're asking why *I'm* not talking to *you*?" That was my first thought. But my second thought was no, she was observing something, so let's look at where that came from. And that's where I realized that we've been thinking about this the wrong way. My behavior has seemed inconsistent because we've been thinking about this as needs, wants, and demands. But it's really action and consequence. And if we think of it that way you can see I am being consistent. Blah...blah. Lecturing. And no...you're not being consistent at all.

H: (cont'd) When you spend time with OM, loving OM, I feel abandoned, betrayed, rejected, unwanted, and hurt. This actually made me cringe. Why? You sound so weak...like crying "uncle, uncle!" after a bully had you in a headlock. I feel that you have withdrawn from me. And when I feel that, I withdraw from you, because I recognize that you are the source of my being hurt. Now, whenever I'm busy, I don't notice this hurt, because-- well, because I'm busy. So this past week, knowing you would probably want to be with him, every night I went out and kept myself busy, and it was great fun; but then, every night, I came home and you still weren't here. Which of course forced me to think about where you were. You love to talk because I think you like to listen to yourself. STFU for real!!!

H: (cont'd) And in this past week... on Monday you stayed out past midnight. On Tuesday you didn't talk to me in the morning, and then shut yourself away from the moment we got home until bedtime. On Wednesday you shut yourself in in the morning and then stayed out until after midnight. On Thursday you shut yourself in in the morning and then stayed out until after midnight. On Friday you shut yourself in in the morning and then didn't even come home at all. So I felt terribly hurt, every day; and, in those few short moments when we did interact, I didn't hear any of your thoughts or feelings or experiences, but instead felt demands from you to account for my whereabouts and how I'd spent my time. W: But that's just how people have conversations, asking about each other's day.

H: Yes, I understand that. I am telling you that I felt like I was being attacked. You see, if there had been sharing of thoughts and feelings from you, I would have responded to that. But since nothing was offered to me, this felt more like an interrogation, especially because the week before you'd asked, and I'd tried to answer, but as soon as I mentioned the fact of what I'd been doing you lost interest and stopped listening. More white noise instead of picking up your man card from the floor and started acting like Clint Eastwood who doesn't give chit.

W: But I haven't been telling you what I've been doing with him because I knew it would upset you. Why would she do that?? She fired you as her H.

H: You don't have to. It's enough just to tell me what you're thinking about, or whatever you're feeling right then. I repeaat: Your W fired you as her H and transferred all of her affections to OM. Don't expect a cat to bark.

W: I see.

H: I understand this is frustrating for you, because I am an obstacle to your having what you want from OM. Sheesh...this is a really bad line from a B movie that went straight to a DVD. When you spend time with him, you hurt me. The easiest way around that is to hate me-- Oh that's the kicker: you're telling your own W how she's supposed to think, feel, and speak??!!

W: I don't hate you.

H: Yes. Or to find things that I do wrong, because then you don't have to care. But when you don't care, then we push each other further away. Because when you spend time with him, I feel hurt and abandoned, and I naturally withdraw from you. There you go again with that 97-pound weakling voice.

H: (cont'd) Now here is what I'm telling you about how to avoid hurting me. Ding! Ding! WRONG ANSWER. You cannot order W to act or behave a certain way. That's demanding...not a BOUNDARY. If you schedule your time with him for when I am busy, like my Monday night class, then I will not notice, and I will not feel hurt. If you spend time with him when I am home alone, especially if you stay out until midnight or later, then I will notice, and I will be hurt, and I will naturally withdraw from you. Seriously. you do need a primer on what constitutes a boundary.

W: But what about the other nights? Are you saying I should just sit here doing nothing?

H: Well, I'd be here too, and if we were not shutting each other out, then we could talk and be friendly with each other. Isn't that what you had in mind? Gosh! Where's your man card.

W: (sour face) No! Not at all. I don't want to give you false hope that our marriage is not ending.

H: Yes, I can see that. But I'm not worried about that. I have no illusions. I am just telling you how you can avoid hurting me. You cannot "order" W how to act. It doesn't work that way.

[newpand]

Wow. Okay. I guess I do need a primer on what constitutes a boundary. I thought I was following exactly what was prescribed in the boundaries section of this website, but apparently I drastically misunderstood it.

Given the situation, can someone explain what I should have done-- or can yet do-- to address and set this same boundary effectively? If I've failed to do it here, then obviously it will come up again, so a different conversation will be required.

And, more than that, I absolutely MUST be prepared to respond to her proposed weekend camping trip (which would happen the week of April 10). I need to be able to set that boundary in rock-hard granite, and if I'm doing it wrong, then I very much need to know how to do it right.

[sandi2]

Sadpand, if you will write out the boundary in one statement for us, maybe we can go from there. Otherwise, what you were doing was having a long talk about your feelings.

Maybe I missed it, but I think she did too. Exactly what it is she is suppose to stop doing, and what will be your action response (consequences) if she doesn't honor that particular boundary?

[newpand]

In one statement?

If she spends time with him while I am not myself out and busy (thus leaving me alone and abandoned, especially late into the night) then I will withdraw and not engage in talking with her when she is here.

I suppose this may seem rather like weak soup, because even if she *is* here I am alone and abandoned, but for whatever reason it doesn't feel that way. Or... ergh... maybe that's the point, isn't it, that the point of the 180 is to act AGAINST my feelings?

So there are two questions, I suppose. One is whether this boundary is a legitimate target in the first place, and another is whether it can even be set at all.

I've been thinking that the response to the camping trip would be something like "we are still legally married, and I am not okay with my wife spending a romantic weekend alone with another man. You can go on this trip, but if you do, the papers will be filed by the time you return." Except-- isn't that a threat? Wouldn't she just defy it and spit in my eye, even when I follow through?

I tried looking for the "boundaries" book and found it was only available as an audiobook. I must be looking in the wrong places.

[Sotto]

That sounds like it's ok for her to see him - as long as you also have plans.

And is withdrawing and not engaging with her really all that much of a consequence?

Without looking back...

Is she still in the marital bed?
Do you still ML?
Do you still do other things for her?

Clearly you are still living together, so that's an area to consider.

I think what you are trying to say is - this is disrespectful and painful to me and I am not going to tolerate it. If it continues, I will do X. Fine, I understand that. But what happens as a result? Does she have to move out of the marital bed? Get her own place? Do you close the joint account and she has to fund her own stuff?

The thing with consequences is they need to link back to the boundary. ie: if you continue seeing OM in this way, you will have to move out and get your own place. It is painful and disrespectful for me to see what is happening and we can not live together if it continues.

Have you read Wonka's boundaries cheat sheet?