[Starsky309]

And what is wrong with me that I know how to re-attract him physically, but not in any other way? Why can't I work out how to do it in other ways? And why the f*** do I have such a strong desire to run away, what's wrong with me? That's exactly what I'm condemning him for!

I'm sorry you're struggling, Susana. You do deserve to be happy, and I hope you two can figure this out, because there's all that shared history together, and obviously a great physical attraction, too.

One of the faults I have with DBing (and nearly all of these marital and relationship websites for that matter, not just this one) is that there is this overall bias of "There must have been something wrong with YOU if your husband/wife strayed/walked away." And while many of the times there was, SOMETIMES we really are okay with who we are and you can lose YOURself in trying to jump thru hoops making changes for the wayward/walkaway spouse. After months and sometimes even years of all of this GAL, 180, introspection, "clean up your own side of the street," etc., some betrayed spouses find themselves eventually saying "You know what? I really am okay with me. It was him."

And I think that's OK.

None of us can tell from the other side of the internet and a keyboard what all of your marital dynamics were with your husband. And I'm NOT saying it's NOT you, or at least partially you -- maybe you overthink things, or smother him, or he feels "tested" all the time as I mentioned that one time before, who knows.

But it MIGHT not be you, and I'd hate to see you change JUST to try to get him back, if you're really okay with "you."

That's why we always advise people to work on those criticisms that "sting," that we really know are genuine faults that we have, and do it for OURSELVES. Those are fine. But if there are other parts of you that you're genuinely okay with, and go to the core of who Susana is, then you shouldn't change them just for him.

Food for thought (even tho I know yours was just a rant).


Starsky

[gogofo]

Susana

I think that rants are good, it gets out what is inside of you in a controlled way. Way better than unloading on you H.

In your rant your description of some issues were again things I had done. I was scared to argue, I didn't like it. I gave up hobbies, time with friends. I over committed to the M and spent too much time with my W.

I never got resentful about it, but I think in looking back that it made me sad.

I don't see some of the things you husband said as negative. Remember he speaks a different language than you. Have you read that book about venus and mars? It could be a good insight to you. Men don't use the same word choices that women use.

I am also biased against a man's ability to properly express his feelings. We are not brought up sharing feelings, we talk about actions. I would say when he compliments loving living with you and compliments you directly, I interpret these as loving phrases. I think men are dense when trying to understand feelings. I think it takes men a LONG time to understand how they feel deep down. We are not taught how to do that and are even taught how NOT to do it when we grow up.

Do his actions feel loving? Men tend to get physical then emotionally connected while women do the opposite.

I think your H is stuck in knowing how to deal with a mature relationship.

Is this his first adult R? Is this your first adult R? Mine was. I was a virgin, by choice (not religious) when I got M. I think when one person has not been in an adult R or through a bad R they don't have a good base about how to deal with a R. I know I didn't want to argue because I am non-confrontational by nature and I also would be scared that it meant the end of the R.

Keep up you PMA, from what I see you are doing a great job.

[susana4]

In regards to your rant...I apologize because I probably haven't read every post of yours, but when was the last time H actually said he didn't want to be with you since BD? I don't recall any that you've posted about.

Hi Tarheel, thanks for your reply. No need to apologize. You didn't miss it.

H and I attended MC for about a month after BD. The last time H said he didn't want to be with me was in our last MC session, when the MC asked "so is this M over then?" (Like it was a foregone conclusion...ugh! That's why I fired the MC and got a DB coach instead!) And H just said "yes". We agreed to carry on living in our current rental until I get word about my visa (probably this month or next). Since that MC session in the beginning of January, we haven't had a single R talk of any sort.

I know it's difficult to see when you're in the midst of the situation, but from an outsiders POV, things appear to be working in your favor. You two are physical, H comments you on your appearance, asks you out for pizza....stick with what you're doing and it's hard for me not to envision things working out for the best.

What you need to be patient with is something that you've already realized, but he hasn't- that he has his own issues to work through. He needs to realize, on his own timeline, that he needs to work on himself as well. I struggled with that early on too- 'if only W would wake up..' It's easy for those of us working on ourselves and getting feedback from this board to see through the fog. For the WAW/WAH, their process may take longer to work through. So all you can do is to focus on yourself and hope that H decides to do the same.

Thanks T, it is hard to see when you're in the middle of things. I can sort of feel H moving closer but then I start to second guess myself, get scared and question my perceptions.

This is a huge test for my patience! I know H has actually seen some of his faults - and I suppose I'm very lucky here; he readily admits he needs to work on his fear of conflict/arguing and his people pleasing, and he's given me some glimpses of his changes - we've had a few chats where he told me stuff he's worked on and changes he made. I suppose I don't know where that leaves him in terms of our M though, if these are just personal changes he's making or if he's reflecting on our M at all. That's where my patience really gets tested!

[Vanilla]

I think all humans have the same feelings, and believe we need to separate feelings from thoughts and actions. I used to confuse the two, as biological chemical bags both men and women are influenced by feelings. Women have more oestrogen and progesterone and generally men more testosterone. Many hormonal and biological differences, are not that significant, so I concern myself with locking into gender bias on most issues. Although some posters disagree strongly, I sense despite gender, age, race, etc as humans we are more biologically alike than different especially with emotions and feelings.

I explain it to myself as is if it is an old fashioned amplifier with sliders and each slider is a hormone, settings from soft to loud. Each hormone at that point is from 0-10, although it changes. When we are upset certain hormones move from 3 to 10 on the scale and we get uncomfortable. So in many ways I agree with gogo, H is having the feelings but the speakers may not be connected properly.

Perhaps H may respond to open questions with warm validation? He may need (a chance to change his tape) time out before he can answer you properly. Then just a "that's interesting" comment without judgement in response. I see my bestie who is a supremo do this with her very closed spouse, after a while he sings to the music with gusto. Try a 180, if what you do is giving inconsistent results try something different, or perhaps see what H does as just H and it's ok. Can your needs be met in a different way perhaps? is this something that you could or have done?

V

[susana4]

And what is wrong with me that I know how to re-attract him physically, but not in any other way? Why can't I work out how to do it in other ways? And why the f*** do I have such a strong desire to run away, what's wrong with me? That's exactly what I'm condemning him for!

I'm sorry you're struggling, Susana. You do deserve to be happy, and I hope you two can figure this out, because there's all that shared history together, and obviously a great physical attraction, too.

One of the faults I have with DBing (and nearly all of these marital and relationship websites for that matter, not just this one) is that there is this overall bias of "There must have been something wrong with YOU if your husband/wife strayed/walked away." And while many of the times there was, SOMETIMES we really are okay with who we are and you can lose YOURself in trying to jump thru hoops making changes for the wayward/walkaway spouse. After months and sometimes even years of all of this GAL, 180, introspection, "clean up your own side of the street," etc., some betrayed spouses find themselves eventually saying "You know what? I really am okay with me. It was him."

And I think that's OK.

None of us can tell from the other side of the internet and a keyboard what all of your marital dynamics were with your husband. And I'm NOT saying it's NOT you, or at least partially you -- maybe you overthink things, or smother him, or he feels "tested" all the time as I mentioned that one time before, who knows.

But it MIGHT not be you, and I'd hate to see you change JUST to try to get him back, if you're really okay with "you."

That's why we always advise people to work on those criticisms that "sting," that we really know are genuine faults that we have, and do it for OURSELVES. Those are fine. But if there are other parts of you that you're genuinely okay with, and go to the core of who Susana is, then you shouldn't change them just for him.

Food for thought (even tho I know yours was just a rant).


Starsky

Hi Starsky, I appreciate the food for thought. Thanks!

So I've been chewing on this, and mostly I am pretty happy with me. But there are some things I want to change and things I am working on changing - overthinking is a huge one. My friends are *always* telling me I overthink and i know it's an issue. Smothering and testing I'm not as sure about, I'm trying to observe myself and see. I thought being critical was one although when I apologised to H the other night for being over critical he said I wasn't. Argumentativeness is another one I'm working on.

Perhaps it's an issue of patience, too. I know I am impatient (my friend laughed last night saying this is karma), and because I overthink I second guess myself a lot and wonder whether I am on the right path. I suppose I am sat here thinking "I am not that bad, I am actually pretty great, and there isn't that much wrong with me and I've changed/am changing a few minor things, so why?!?!" But I guess you can't measure things in that way. Maybe they aren't that minor.

H has never really criticised me - he has said only a handful of critical things in our entire M. I kind of think (but perhaps this is mindreading) he thinks the problem lies in him and blames himself for everything (his self esteem seems at rock bottom atm). So I guess that's good, because the changes I'm making are for me since I don't even know what his would be, lol.

[Vanilla]

Sorry fat finger again so posted far too soon.

I agree with Starsky, that if you are fundamentally ok being at your core who you are, and if you are happy with you then it is adjustment or fine tuning that is needed to get the best from your R. Changing you to make your M work when Susan is Susan is likely to make Susan inauthentic to herself. It is possible that all that is needed is new technique rather than new belief ( if that makes sense). Tools that will help two ok individuals fit better, we allow people these choices in the work environment, and we apply and teach remedial soft and hard skills. Especially with individuals new to their posts but I for one expected to be absolute perfect 100% of the time, I would not ask that of myself at work so why in my R do I do this?

This journey can be about new tools in the tool box.

V

[susana4]

Susana

I think that rants are good, it gets out what is inside of you in a controlled way. Way better than unloading on you H.

Thanks for your reply, gogofo. I really appreciate your perspective because it sounds like you and my H have some things in common!

Yes, that's what my coach told me, she said to write everything down. I used to journal a lot when I was younger but haven't lately, but I think she is right. i feel a lot better after ranting in writing, haha.

In your rant your description of some issues were again things I had done. I was scared to argue, I didn't like it. I gave up hobbies, time with friends. I over committed to the M and spent too much time with my W.

I never got resentful about it, but I think in looking back that it made me sad.

I could see why it would make you sad. I feel sad that my H gave things up, I didn't realise he was and I didn't want him to.

I don't see some of the things you husband said as negative. Remember he speaks a different language than you. Have you read that book about venus and mars? It could be a good insight to you. Men don't use the same word choices that women use.

I have read it and it gave me a lot of insights, I realised a lot of the time when H and I argued it was because of mars/venus communication issues. But I still don't always "get" what he's saying - perhaps I need an M/V dictionary? Do they sell those? Maybe i should give the book another read.

I am also biased against a man's ability to properly express his feelings. We are not brought up sharing feelings, we talk about actions. I would say when he compliments loving living with you and compliments you directly, I interpret these as loving phrases. I think men are dense when trying to understand feelings. I think it takes men a LONG time to understand how they feel deep down. We are not taught how to do that and are even taught how NOT to do it when we grow up.

Do his actions feel loving? Men tend to get physical then emotionally connected while women do the opposite.

That makes sense (about men not being brought up to express feelings).

Yes, I would say his actions feel loving. My friends who know him, even those who are against me standing and have told me to go for D, all say he is still in love with me. But yes, I think his actions are loving, he:
-shows concern for my wellbeing, he gets worried if I get hurt (e.g. if I burn my hand he rushes into the room to hold me), seems genuinely upset if I'm sad and comforts me
-does a lot of acts of service (does my laundry, makes me dinner when I'm out, fixes things around the house etc.) and gives me WOA, compliments me and thanks me (he texts me pretty much every time he has leftovers for lunch to thank me and say how amazing the food was)
-he seems to enjoy spending time with me, going out and doing things, and he always wants to know what's going on in my life
-he keeps me up to date (even though obviously he doesn't need to any more) and tells me when he has plans, who he's going out with and he texts me when he's on his way home
-he wakes me up with a hug every morning and when we go to bed he gives me a hug good night, and he gives me a lot of hugs in between when he wants to thank me for something

And to be honest, this is going to sound crazy perhaps, but when I look into his eyes, he is LOOKING at me with love.

I think your H is stuck in knowing how to deal with a mature relationship.

Is this his first adult R? Is this your first adult R? Mine was. I was a virgin, by choice (not religious) when I got M. I think when one person has not been in an adult R or through a bad R they don't have a good base about how to deal with a R. I know I didn't want to argue because I am non-confrontational by nature and I also would be scared that it meant the end of the R.

Keep up you PMA, from what I see you are doing a great job.

Agreed.

Yes, this is the first serious R for both of us. H had a GF in high school for about a year, and a GF at the end of college and just after for about a year and a half but that was mostly long distance. I have a similar R history. I think he doesn't know how to handle an adult R, and he didn't have a good example as a kid either. And perhaps doesn't understand the challenges that come with all R's. Gogofo, your reasons for not arguing really do sound so similar to my H!

Thank you.

[susana4]

I think all humans have the same feelings, and believe we need to separate feelings from thoughts and actions. I used to confuse the two, as biological chemical bags both men and women are influenced by feelings. Women have more oestrogen and progesterone and generally men more testosterone. Many hormonal and biological differences, are not that significant, so I concern myself with locking into gender bias on most issues. Although some posters disagree strongly, I sense despite gender, age, race, etc as humans we are more biologically alike than different especially with emotions and feelings.

I explain it to myself as is if it is an old fashioned amplifier with sliders and each slider is a hormone, settings from soft to loud. Each hormone at that point is from 0-10, although it changes. When we are upset certain hormones move from 3 to 10 on the scale and we get uncomfortable. So in many ways I agree with gogo, H is having the feelings but the speakers may not be connected properly.

Perhaps H may respond to open questions with warm validation? He may need (a chance to change his tape) time out before he can answer you properly. Then just a "that's interesting" comment without judgement in response. I see my bestie who is a supremo do this with her very closed spouse, after a while he sings to the music with gusto. Try a 180, if what you do is giving inconsistent results try something different, or perhaps see what H does as just H and it's ok. Can your needs be met in a different way perhaps? is this something that you could or have done?

V

Sorry fat finger again so posted far too soon.

I agree with Starsky, that if you are fundamentally ok being at your core who you are, and if you are happy with you then it is adjustment or fine tuning that is needed to get the best from your R. Changing you to make your M work when Susan is Susan is likely to make Susan inauthentic to herself. It is possible that all that is needed is new technique rather than new belief ( if that makes sense). Tools that will help two ok individuals fit better, we allow people these choices in the work environment, and we apply and teach remedial soft and hard skills. Especially with individuals new to their posts but I for one expected to be absolute perfect 100% of the time, I would not ask that of myself at work so why in my R do I do this?

This journey can be about new tools in the tool box.

V

Hi V, thanks for that, very thought-provoking insight about the amplifier. That really makes sense, H is having the feelings but the speakers may not be connected properly.

He has always had some trouble expressing his feelings, sounds like your bestie's H. I am interested in how she gets him to open up, wish I could observe her! I read some really good al turtle stuff which has changed the way I see and I think how I interact with H recently, I try to observe now when he's getting uncomfortable and halt the conversation and allow him time out. The judgement thing - gosh, I realise now how judgmental I've been in the past! I didn't really realise it until recently, because I don't ever say my judgements out loud (I just think them) and my friends always tell me how non-judgmental I am. But H can see them in my eyes. Again, some al turtle stuff I found on icebergs has really helped me be less judgemental. I still have work to do but i'm working on it.

I think that's a good point about tools and fine tuning. I am mostly happy with Susana, at my core Susana is great. But she could do with some fine tuning and definitely some new tools. I wish we all had an induction/training sessions at the start of a marriage like at work! One tool I could really use is getting H to open up. I fear in the past I may have come across as pushy to get him to talk (perhaps this is here the smothering comes in Starsky).

I did discuss in my last coaching call open questions but I struggled with making them sound not rehearsed, the ones my coach suggested sounded too structured to me- "How are you feeling, H?" "It's been awhile since we've had a chance to sit down and talk [he had been on holiday], is there anything you want to share?" "What experiences recently have made you happy? Not happy?"

Can your needs be met in a different way perhaps? is this something that you could or have done?
I think my primary LL are PT (being met at the moment with ML), WOA (being met) and QT which is where I struggle, since we aren't spending that much time together and quality conversation is important to me but H can be closed. Maybe it's a case of approaching conversation in a different way, with open questions like you said, or of understanding H differently (like we're speaking a different language).

[susana4]

Thanks guys for your comments yesterday when I was feeling down. My PMA is much improved.

I did crack and end up ML to H though.

I met a my 'DB GF' for a drink last night. She doesn't actually know anything about DB, I haven't told her and she's never heard of it as far as I'm aware but her advice from the beginning of my sitch has pretty much been spot-on what DB would say to do. She just intuitively gets DB. I generally try to avoid discussing my sitch with friends A. I don't want to spend all my time talking about my sitch and B. because most disagree with me DBing and think I should just chuck him out and go for D. But since I don't see DB GF often and since I wanted to get her take we spoke about my sitch and I think it was just what I needed. She told me all the same things as you guys and my coach but it was nice to hear it again, in person.

NOPE this is not about YOU.

It is all on HIM.

You didnt break him and cant fix him.

So clean up your side of the street and keep moving forward,
nothing else I can say.

This is basically what she said. She said "look, all you can do is live your life. If at some point it becomes too much and you can't take it any more, then you might have to walk away, and we'll talk. But for now, just know he is spouting nonsense. Don't even think of him as human, horrible as that sounds. Don't try and make sense of this because it doesn't make sense. You'll waste your time. And you can't fix his problems, he needs to work out how to do that." She also said maybe this is karma for being impatient and a control freak and overthinking things. Ha! I said I'd rather think of it as a lesson from the universe in how to be more patient and stop overthinking.

She suggested trying to look on the positive side (though she admitted she wouldn't be able to do this herself) and think about the good parts - like I get to ML and have the bed all to myself and not have to tell H where I'm going or what I'm doing).

I also had a bit of a realisation about part of my sitch. DB GF and i were discussing whether H has fear of abandonment as my DB coach posited, and thus ran away because he was scared I would leave him, and then it hit me. For a few months prior to BD, H and I were discussing moving to Barcelona. We even went there for a weekend to look at different neighbourhoods. But at the last minute, he started freaking out, and saying he wasn't sure if he could do it. He was too attached to his job and wasn't sure he could move so far from his family and friends and he was scared, he said "maybe I'm just a big baby". I was a b!tch guys, I was, I was so angry because I felt like he was getting in the way of my dreams of travelling, and I told him he was being a wuss. Anyway, when he dropped the bomb, he told me "I wanted to tell you now so you didn't base the decision of your visa on me, so that you can move to another country if you want to, and I wouldn't be hindering you". I asked him a couple of weeks later if BD was related to or brought on by the issue of moving to Spain (I thought he hadn't liked the arguing, and apologised for starting such a big fight over it) but he said no, absolutely not. But he said "I did feel like I didn't love you enough, because you were willing to stay here for me, and i was not willing to move to another country for you." At this point I was still trying to use logic with him, and said "yes but making a massive change like a move is completely different to staying the same and not changing so I don't think it compares". It didn't hit me until last night, maybe the fight about Barcelona triggered his fear of abandonment, could he have thought I was going to leave him and move to Spain?

...

So, after I came home last night from my drinks with DB GF, the sexual tension was so thick you couldn't even cut through it with a knife. It was like 3 days of built up sexual tension and Vanilla, I was weak of the flesh this time. H and I made dinner and talked a lot (he was extremely chatty) and then we basically spent 10 minutes just sitting there and complimenting each other, lol, me telling him he's more attractive than his brother (he was being really down on himself and comparing) and him telling me I'm so beautiful and I'm more gorgeous than my DB GF (because I was being down on myself). (Lies, she's absolutely stunning, but i'll take it!) We ate and he suggested watching TV and we got snuggled up on the sofa together but within a minute of the show starting we were kissing and then one thing led to another.

ML was very tender but still passionate this time. He said he wanted to kiss every inch of me, so I said yes. I found it curious how he kept saying "I love X, I love Y", I don't want to read into it but about 80% of what he said to me in bed involved him saying he loved something (this is not what he normally used to say in the past, or at least not that much). In general he keeps saying he loves things about me (but not saying he loves me) - "I love living with you" "I love your cooking" etc. Trying not to read anything into it but I have noticed he is saying that a lot. As soon as we finished ML he said "here, come give me a hug" and pulled me into a cuddle. He stayed the night in the MBR (he didn't ask this time) and pulled me into him so we were spooning when we went to sleep. No awkwardness this morning - although I did think when I woke up and he wasn't in bed that he'd left in the night but then vaguely remembered his alarm going off. He told me his alarm normally goes off for 15 minutes (he keeps hitting snooze) before he gets up to work out but he didn't want to disturb me so he got up after the first time it went off. He was pretty flirty and hugging me a lot before he left for work. The way he was acting this morning did feel like old times, which led me to having a dream during my nap about H and life pre-BD...ugh!


Thank you again to everyone for your comments yesterday and today. So much food for thought!! I have been thinking far too much so far this morning though, and basically written a novel here in my last few posts, so now I'm going to a coffee shop to get some work done. Will have a relaxing night in tonight I think and just do a face mask and watch some tV, but tomorrow off to GAL with belly dancing class in the morning and possibly a movie in the evening.

[Starsky309]

So I've been chewing on this, and mostly I am pretty happy with me. But there are some things I want to change and things I am working on changing - overthinking is a huge one. My friends are *always* telling me I overthink and i know it's an issue. Smothering and testing I'm not as sure about, I'm trying to observe myself and see. I thought being critical was one although when I apologised to H the other night for being over critical he said I wasn't. Argumentativeness is another one I'm working on.

Perhaps it's an issue of patience, too. I know I am impatient

I don't see any of those traits as a reason to no longer want to be married to someone. As others have said, I think this is more about your HUSBAND'S issues than YOURS. Keep working on those things, just to make yourself a better person and a better potential mate, but keep walking forward in confidence knowing that this is your husband's journey that he needs to figure out. All you can do is know -- and let HIM know -- what your boundaries are if he continues to want you in his life as his wife.


Starsky